FS clearly want to do something different than V2 and i know a lot of poeple who´ll enjoy some RNG, even if it´s exeggerated, more than getting permanent godrolls within 10 hours.
Remnant from the Ashes relies in another way on RNG and that is mapping. You´ll restart all over again and may find the gear you want or not for X hours aswell and even have to decide how to kill the boss.
Also hard in comparison since this game is NOT about loot, it´s about the variety of replay-experience to collect everything and more like a soft-roguelite, the builds are highly limited aswell.
Gunfire Reborn is a roguelite game, where you don´t know what you get every run and you´ll lose everything while it ends in one or another way. The luck is real aswell and runs can be from everything from “you got fkd” immediately to being broken all day long.
I can´t say much about DRG or roboquest, but different games work obviously different. Vermintide has a roguelike mode aswell, which doesn´t offer any kind of great loot or the experience to use your own build.
Poeple enjoy different stuff and a lot dropped Vermintide for being a pretty stale game where you got everything immediately once you engaged with champion+.
I won´t argue much about personal preference and yes, we still might need some tweaks and bad luck protection in one or another way. But it already offers more “reason to play” with the permanent progress even if it´s slow. I personally consider everything above 350 with a damage bar filled by 78-80 as sick roll anyway.
EDIT: This game just goes into a more diablo-orientated direction and i highly doubt it´ll change.
God rolls within 10 hours is an exaggeration. Lets say the remove just the locks, which would make a lot of people happy. You still need to find the tier 4 blessings you want (of that weapon type) and you still need to find a 380 weapon you like with the modifiers you want. For one item. And you need to spend the time to get to level 30. Lets say your goal was a perfect, goldy item. Some people COULD get that item, and the game should be balanced accordingly for this eventuality, in order for the challenge to be present at highest difficulty. How LONG should it reasonably take to get such a weapon? Not 10 you say so… 100 hours? 100 hours per weapon reasonable? Lets say you want to do that on all 65 weapons in the game to make yourself patch resilient for buffs and nerfs and to experiment new builds. That’s 6,500 hours. Is that reasonable? What if certain builds/play styles are only possible with certain combinations of blessings and hitting certain break points? Where do you draw the line and say “Yes this is reasonable”. And “Yes, this is a FUN process”?
Remnant from the ashes was entirely deterministic though. Beat a boss one of two ways, guaranteed to get X. Go here, and get this, you for sure get this. Some were based on what spawns on a map with a percent chance but only after maybe 4 play throughs of the campaign at most you would get pretty much all of that. And then everything was static upgrades and choices as to what you equip. MUCH rather prefer. The sequel, they are changing the trait system so that you level up and get a bigger pool of points as to how you allocate them, so you have to choose your combination of traits and archetypes to suit a build.
Wait. Are you saying Darktide is NOT about loot? Or remnant isn’t? Both are heavily about loot.
My point with roguelite games is simply they are PvE and not about needing RNG chases to have fun. They have static upgrades that exist outside the game and once you hit “max” and level up all the characters it’s just playing the game itself. No one player can have better starting gear than another once they hit max “level”.
DRG, once you get all the over clocks, has no RNG. They get a TON of player retention from just adding seasonal cosmetics and some content. But once max everyone has the exact same pool of upgrades, weapons, and over clocks to choose from.
A lot of people STAYED with Vermintide 2 once they got everything. Vermintide 2 has more concurrent players than darktide!
But sure, it did go Diablo-esque without the mountain of loot. Most of the time those games are all about the loot and not much skill. ARPGs are just loot chasers mostly, only a few exceptions.
Yep, I was lucky to have farmed tons of T3s and a few T4 blessings shop camping and this update just removed them from the Armory Exchange. The average roll of weapons was also pushed down on the high end (I haven’t seen a 380 in 2 days) despite having the average roll on the low end going up.
Basically some hoarders got a little bit better weapons, while the main acquisition method was nerfed to accommodate a trap function (brunt exchange). I called it being just as trash as Melk’s judgment and here we are, everything is monkey’s pawed to the max when it comes to QoL. This was only intended for players who are still leveling to actually be able to try out gear, not a viable method of acquiring upgrade stock.
Melk was also nerfed, in that you need to constantly re roll quests for them to return a decent number of ordo ignots. They made tiers to quests that only gave close to 600 ignots before like killing scabs. This is the main source of T3-T4s besides upgrade trashing and Melk currency is very time gated. Pulling a blessing off a 341 base power Transcendent will cost you almost 2 weeks of play time.
There we go again, the smouldering strawman that is thinking people want god rolls in 10 hours.
First off, what is wrong with that? If it takes 10 hours to get one god roll, that’s still at least 130+curio time hours per character for all weapons.
Second of all, if getting a god roll in 10 hours is bad, how bad is not getting one in 400 hours?
I’d wager a large reason Darktide dropped to less regular players than Vermintide 2 is for a large part the RNG and lack of any deterministic progression past a certain point. Vermintide 2 was still RNG heavy, but you could get the so-called god rolls much more easily and with a bit more agency, but it still took about 100 hours to gear up one character. And people still played V2 for hundreds and thousands of hours past that.
Even Diablo games has more player agency in how you can get loot, not to mention you get at least 10-20x more loot in the equivalent time period.
Again, RNG should support the itemisation, not the be all end all of it. You should’t replace game design with pure, unmitigated RNG, even though Fatshark sure as hell have tried.
This is about the V2 comparison. Yes you need to level, but once you engage with champion + you´re able to get them. And once you got them you could change modifier and other stuff just by one click. It´s just stale and boring when we talk about loot.
And again, not saying this system here is perfect. I said it often enough, that FS could add a real endgame loop with materials to unlock slots etc… but it´s already something better than those instareds.
Remnant isn´t about loot, dunno how you can say it´s heavily about it. Yes you repeat the game multiple times to complete your collection, but it´s not that you´ll get dozens of loot with different stats or something. It´s all predefined in its stats and the location you get it. And the reasons its designed this way is actually to offer a somewhat varied replayability, meanwhile the tideseries have static maps and its replayability lies in some spawns and random loot.
Yes but they clearly work differently compared to the tide-series. We already have the chaos wastes mode in V2 and it works.
It would also work to get ride of stats and balance everything across the difficulties from beginning, meanwhile concentrate on more gear and content releases.
But we don´t have any of it. The game goes a lootshooter / diablo-like way to keep players engaged or / and to offer some reason to play between content-lacks.
It´s just another design-choice which exists for ages. Not saying you or others should… but if i would be so unhappy with it, then i would play games like you mentioned or would go back to V2. Otherwise i would just play with what i get as i did in dozens of hours of diablo and build around my possibilities.
I think the other big disconnect is that people can get good items it’s often they have no real interest in using them because it doesn’t fit their playstyle and can be Uber awkward to adapt too.
Sure I got a 500 rating power maul and it’s a REALLY GOOD ROLL but I hate using it. I just hate the way it feels, I dislike how it throws things around but I almost feel obliged to use the thing because it rolled so good.
(Forgive the crappy phone quality photo using a different computer and none of the usual stuff is logged in)
I would have liked to try different stuff but every axe I’ve rolled ended up rolling like ass and when I did get a decent one I didn’t like it so I’m constantly questioning if I don’t like the weapon or just got a bad roll.
You do remember that reds was a piddly <1% from Vaults on release and wasn’t buffed in both rate and appearance in Champion chests until 3 or so years later?
Sure you could roll an orange that could perform the same as a red, but that took a lot of resources to keep rolling. It’s about as bland as Darktide’s perk roll system where you’re sitting there pressing a button (and now in DT, 2 buttons) for 20+ minutes at a time. Why didn’t they improve on that with any amount of quality of life? Why do they regress into allow the game to effectively brick or force your item to be permanently sub-par if you were unlucky?
Like Darktide’s gameplay should be able to keep a fair people past the loot phase, but currently it’s the loot system (plus the combination of a lack of content/technical issues/non-loot related design issues) that has pushed a lot of those people away.
Lets say your goal was a perfect, goldy item. Some people COULD get that item, and the game should be balanced accordingly for this eventuality, in order for the challenge to be present at highest difficulty. How LONG should it reasonably take to get such a weapon? Not 10 you say so… 100 hours? 100 hours per weapon reasonable? Lets say you want to do that on all 65 weapons in the game to make yourself patch resilient for buffs and nerfs and to experiment new builds. That’s 6,500 hours. Is that reasonable? What if certain builds/play styles are only possible with certain combinations of blessings and hitting certain break points? Where do you draw the line and say “Yes this is reasonable”. And “Yes, this is a FUN process”?
Their athanor system in the weaves was “change things with one click” in vermintide 2 and people loved it. Same with Deep Rock Galactic.
… Remnant is heavily about the loot. The developers said it was about the loot. It was trying crazy combinations, killing the dragon boss a different way to cut off it’s tail to get the sword. Then pairing it with sets of armor and trinkets. A big part of the goal was to find them. I had a lot of fun using some combinations of armor and trinkets to play the game entirely different. Tanky healing melee fighter, sniper, summoner, ninja melee mobility, etc. All based on the loot I had to find to do those things.
My point is the “looter shooter/ diablo-like” way is pushing away MORE players than it’s pulling in. Mostly from anecdotal evidence. I don’t disagree there is a market for some people that like that but even people who do like looter shooters don’t like this. I played warframe for over 2000 hours. And I mainly just wanted to get the items so I could not grind and play how I wanted to. But once you unlock it, that’s it! you can change with “one click”. Want to try different mods (which have static upgrades)? You can do that! changes the who play style! On the warframe and on the weapons! Getting a “mod” to max rank took FOREVER if it had 10 ranks but at LEAST once I had it I could swap em around to my hearts content.
You don’t have to agree, but my point is there are a lot of SUCCESSFUL non-RNG heavy PvE games, or games with 0 RNG or loot to chase. And even FOR looter shooter fans, I think darktide is a BAD looter shooter for it’s experience and odds.
Yes i know, but i was one of the lucky ones i guess who even got multiple reds from 1 chest.
Of course others had bad luck, but the possibility to “kill” the endgame-loop within a couple of hours is there and V2´s possibilities in kind of variety is even worse than in DT when we talk about traits and blessings on weapons.
And driving away people with mathematically insignifcant odds is any better?
Because I think overall that letting people get a god roll and have fun with it is a better design philosophy than never giving anyone any god rolls and them leaving because of it.
it is, including upthread where i estimated the rough odds of rolling 380 as being roughly .2%, or very roughly based on current EV i don’t think you would expect to see one if you spent the entire current ordo cap of the game. then, as a followon to the conversation that was someone evaluating the system on the whole ie someone who had put hundreds of hours in before the patch i was trying to demonstrate - once you clear the incredibly awful stat roll the system opens up.
this would be representative of someone further forward on the progression curve ie someone with many available blessings. that combined with much more favourable consecrate rolls and the existence of brunt to build an inventory means all the stuff other than the worst roll is very effectively mitigated as demonstrated by my experience. it’s impossible for me to evaluate the relative grind from where i am tho.
i think i would only recommend people use brunts for 360 items or lower, otherwise it’s not worth the time investment. store is still the primary route to good items, unfortunately imo.
While i hated the early vermintide2 drop rates as much as anyone, those were buffed already back in 2018. Red dust was also introduced in the same year.
Pretty much, at least with my rng i cannot really see using brunt as being realistic mean of getting good modier items unless you are simply filthy rich and have nothing else to spend the dockets on.
Funnily enough i just checked my store to see what has refreshed. It also seems like the shop just generally rolls more stuff now in the 365+ range.
As I said above, I think even looter shooter fans (some portion of them) don’t like this implementation of it.
God rolls are the problem. Because the game NEEDS to be balanced around them and taken into account as an eventuality. Is it fun to one shot everything on damnation or play with someone one shotting everything? And then if you have more casual/unlucky players the game is not balanced around them, but the god rolls so their gear will need to better to match their skill.
I think its a problem. Which is why its easier to have “god roll” gear reasonably obtainable by all players so that when doing the highest difficulty game its testing your loadout, skill, and mettle. Not your luck.
The only comparison i´ve is the comparison to V2. DT is plagued with way more issues in its release and has less classes to offer but is still able to hold the same amount of players if not more into the game.
So far it´s either that less poeple care about the loot, more poeple like the system or its other reasons why poeple still stay to it like the combat.
The godrolls clearly didn´t hold poeple at V2 as RNG probably won´t hold guys like you in this game.
It hasn’t though. Vermintide 2, despite being a 2018 game was having more concurrent players.
As well, Deep Rock Galactic is a completely fair comparison and holds a lot more.
Vermintide 2 I spent a majority of my time experimenting with combinations. I would do the same here but good luck easily trying out combinations with perks and blessings.
The god rolls, whether you like em or hate em, still present balance issues. And you still have yet to present a time in terms of the average amount of hours would be reasonable for someone to get a “god rolled” item.
Judging from steam charts, the 2 games pretty much had identical amounts of players today at 17:00.
This is not something i would expect from a game that is barely half a year old and just got a kinda massive content upgrade.
