Anybody else think vet should get a sword and shield?

[IshanDeston]

[quote=“Ralendil, post:18, topic:98080”]
That’s why you see more and more veterans playing melee.[/quote]

People play Veteran in melee, because the VoC is a big crutch that glosses over people sucking at melee.

If they were to remove the stagger and surplus toughness, nobody would be playing Melee on Veteran anymore.

@Ralendil

Cause the zealot archetype is weaker.

I strongly disagree with that. I play all the Classes, although Veteran the most (as i enjoy shooting the most) in Auric Missions and the Zealot is still the strongest class in the game.

@Ralendil

Two weapons that need a nerf for 6 months

I am not sure how i feel about the idea of a Plasma Gun Nerf. I would like it to be slower to draw, but that is about the only thing i would do. I do not think a Plasma Gun should be something you just whip out of your pocket. I think it should be more akin in draw speed to the Helbore.

As for the Revolver… it needs its Carapace damage removed, i think its fine as a weapon to kill a Gunner or a Rager, but the fact that you can use it against everything is the issue, when combined with the quick draw speed. Now that we have the Bolt pistol i think it would be best if the Carapace damage is removed and then the Bolt pistol fixed.

@Ralendil

Let’s hope they don’t create new OP weapons before they fix the current ones

I am worried about how the Mark system will work, that is supposed to come with the Itemisation update. The idea of unlocking new weapon Marks with Mastery suggests to me that there are going to be a bunch new weapons (well, weapon marks).

And i do not agree with the Void Strike being OP. The increase in charge speed was all it needed. I am fine with it being a “line killer”, just like i am fine with the Plasma Gun being that, as long as you don’t just “whip it out” in the midst of Melee as if it was a Pistol.

@Ralendil

Wasting ammos is something part of the ogryn identity.

But it is not fun to play, and if i had my way, i would give them an Oversized revolver. Something that loads Shotgun slugs. Maybe give it 4 shots and a big kickback like the Bolt Pistol… but it would be something that isn’t the Grenade Gauntlet, which explodes all over the place and knocks the enemy down if it doesn’t kill them.

@Ralendil

And note that I am not against melee veteran

I am not saying “remove the melee weapon from the Veteran”, but i absolutely hate how it has become a discount Zealot.

Used to be Executioner’s Stance was the Veteran’s thing… with the highlighted enemies and everything, but now its the least usable Veteran’s ability. And i would love to the the Stagger of VoC to be moved onto Executioner’s Stance. Then you need to decide: “do you want to create space for yourself, to shoot” or regain Toughness.

Who thought to give both a Stagger and Toughness gain to VoC, make enemies spawn all around you and give no toughness gain on the Executioner’s Stance is beyond me. Even the “Stealth” ability is better at shooting people than Executioner’s stance, because it inherited the -90% threat ability, which allows you to get in position and take a couple gunners out before the melee enemies swamp you again.

I am fine with Executioner’s Stance not giving Toughness anymore, if it would create space and give you a few seconds of breathing room to actually shoot stuff in a HIST mission. But not creating space or giving a toughness shield makes it absolutely terrible… and this used to be the Veteran’s Trademark ability… highlighting enemies for themselves and the Team.

I do not understand why VoC wouldn’t give the highlight the enemies ability either… heck, i don’t understand any of the decisions they made with the Veteran tree… but giving it the tools to be Melee Focused with Weapon Specialist and VoC as it stands is puzzling.

@Ralendil

BUT, OP is not totally wrong by proposing that as combat shields exist in wh40k. But seems related to space marines. So again… no.

I mean a Boarding Shield isn’t that bad an idea, but it doesn’t fit the Games mechanics. Edit: Killteam had Navis Endurant Models…

So its not entirely just an Astartes thing. But it could be a double barrel shotgun with the ability to block ranged attacks akin to the Ogryns Shield, just minus the “brace”. Just make it the special activation to duck behind the shield and make it cost stamina. Maybe the Shotgun would have 2-4 shots.. be short ranged like the double barrel.

[Ralendil]

@IshanDeston

People play Veteran in melee, because the VoC is a big crutch that glosses over people sucking at melee.

I disagree here. Until this month I was using stealth and not VoC. And my builds were incredibly strong on melee even without VoC. Sure it is one of the strongest ability of the game, but still not the reason why a lot of veterans go melee now.
If you don’t take keystones, it is easy to become strong on melee. Sure it requires points, but you have them if you don’t pick keystones. And as they suck… my choice is made.
And making them stronger and nerfing the other talents won’t make me picking them, I would just stop playing veteran and… maybe the game.
I hate these keystones that are just garbage thrown to the community to please it.

@IshanDeston

I strongly disagree with that. I play all the Classes, although Veteran the most (as i enjoy shooting the most) in Auric Missions and the Zealot is still the strongest class in the game.

In term of power, I really think veteran is above.
In term of survivability, zealot is above.

@IshanDeston

As for the Revolver… it needs its Carapace damage removed, i think its fine as a weapon to kill a Gunner or a Rager, but the fact that you can use it against everything is the issue, when combined with the quick draw speed.

I totally disagree about the carapace nerf. For me the revolver has to be a close range weapon with a damage and cleave falloff out of the close range and hand canon should be limited to 40% rending.
Revolver is one of the few choices to kill carapace as a zealot. Nerfing it like you want make zealot players having only boltguns (boltpistols included) as a choice to pair with weapons that cannot penetrate carapace (like heavy sword). And boltpistol sucks, boltgun is slow… doesn’t fit my gameplays at all and I think it would restrict a lot zealot. Punishing a class cause an other class is too strong with a weapon… not a good idea. But, still, revolver needs badly a nerf anyways.
Plasma, the problem is that uncharged shots are too strong and infinite cleave is also too strong.

@IshanDeston

And i do not agree with the Void Strike being OP.

I just see that Void strike is really really really strong. I don’t play psyker, so won’t try to argue on this.

@IshanDeston

I mean a Boarding Shield isn’t that bad an idea, but it doesn’t fit the Games mechanics.

I agree. I would say it doesn’t fit the spirit of the veteran class.

[Nish]

@IshanDeston

People play Veteran in melee, because the VoC is a big crutch that glosses over people sucking at melee.

I play Stealth vet and that’s also like 80% melee. People play Vet melee, because Vet ranged builds are horribly bad compared to just going melee. Just Executioner’s Stance alone is the worst combat ability in the game by a large margin, and to add to the issue most weapons run out of ammo if you don’t hold your fire regularly, making a bunch of setups 50/50 or 40/60 hybrids at best.

The few ranged builds that can have an actual 80/20 split are usually hyper specialized (point-wise) to get every ounce of strength into them and still lag behind not just builds from other classes, but most variations of Melee Vet aswell.

[Ralendil]

They restricted so much ammos… but, like keystones, it was a strong wish of the community.
But about ranged weapon damages, the skill tree is fine. However, you cannot take advantage of it, except with lasguns and with a critic build.

What can we say? I remember… enjoy

But to be fair. I don’t think this is restrictive too much. Fact is, you can get pretty good on melee with the veteran with few points and, if you don’t adopt keystones, this is an obvious choice.

[IshanDeston]

@Nish

I play Stealth vet and that’s also like 80% melee.

Imho, that’s just a different flavor of crutch.

Instead of staggering everything around you like the Psyker used to be able to, you are dumping aggro on your teammates… both restores Toughness and serves as an “Oh Sh**” button for Melee.

And i am not saying there is anything wrong with such a button… it is why Zealot Charge restores toughness, after all… but that is just the point. The Devs gave the Veteran two very good options to either dump everything on the teammates or give themselves a lot of space to catch a breath.

That is more options than the Zealot has… their Choir might be “better” (yeah, yeah, we can argue about that too) than the VoC, but at least it’s an active channel, not a quick shout. But effectively the Veteran has the same two options the Zealot has.

Turn invisible or Stagger enemies… but in both cases the Veteran’s options are better than the Zealots. The Stagger is stronger and you can get excess toughness… and the Invis is longer and you can have 2 charges.

It is absolutely that the Devs want you to melee on the Veteran… and it is absolutely a crutch.

[Slyspy]

Today I learned that anything that makes a build powerful is a crutch.

[SgtHavelock]

@IshanDeston

Invis is longer and you can have 2 charges.

Hold up there, because you’re painting VoC and Infiltrate as being superior options. To take Infiltrate vs Shroudfield, you’re being disingenuous here by only focusing on the duration of a the basic Shroudfield, not the massive raft of benefits it gives.

For its 8 second duration and 45 second cooldown, Infiltrate has these benefits:

• Whilst Infiltrate is active: +25% Movement Speed.
• Upon leaving stealth: Suppress nearby enemies.

It can be upgraded so that on leaving Stealth you get:

• +30% Damage for 5s
• -90% Threat for 10s
• +50% Damage Reduction for 10s

Then you have the option to add a second charge whilst increasing the duration by 1/3 to 60 seconds.

The entire package costs 4 points, and you can shave that down to 3 points by not using either the -90% Threat or +50 Damage Reduction upgrade.

For its 3s duration and 30s cooldown, Shroudfield has these benefits when active:

• +20% Movement Speed
• +100% Backstab Damage
• +100% Finesse Damage
• +100% Critical Hit Chance.

It can then be modified with either:

• +50% Backstab Damage, +50% Finesse Damage, but -50% Cooldown (30 seconds to 45 seconds).
• Duration extended to 6 seconds.

Finally, it can be given Replenish 40% Toughness over 5 seconds on leaving stealth, with a +20% Damage Reduction. All of that for 2 points spent.

When you line them up you can see their differences and that your claim that Infiltrate is inherently better is just flat out wrong. Shroudfield requires less investment whilst having the potential to be only 2 seconds shorter without an increased cooldown, whilst that second charge of Infiltrate significantly increases the cooldown.

The Zealot gets loads of benefits to their first strike out of melee, as per its Deathcult Assassin theme; the Veteran’s strike out of stealth does not have an immediate benefit. Once they leave stealth then they get the benefits that have been paid for, along with the automatic local suppression of enemies.

Infiltrate is a repositioning/flanking tool that provides benefits when the stealth is over, Shroudfield gives the chance for a massive single critical hit backstab attack best made with a high finesse weapon.

So tell me how Infiltrate is a crutch that is better than Shroudfield, seeing as Shroudfield has massive benefits to its attack in stealth for fewer points and has the potential for an only slightly shorter duration, whereas the Veteran only gets their benefits only once they have left stealth and cannot extend the duration.

I don’t know why you’re so against Voice of Command. Yes it has a stronger stagger but once the enemy get up they’re instantly attacking again. With Choir they’re not because they’re being pulsed away, allowing your team to re-group, kill nasty threats, revive, drop medkits etc. You create a much longer breathing space that can be vital amidst hordes and Elite/Specialist spam, or when a Monstrocity is attacking you all.

[IshanDeston]

@Slyspy

Today I learned that anything that makes a build powerful is a crutch.

Anything that closes a skill gap by a button press is. Yes. Per definition of a crutch in video games.

@SgtHavelock

Hold up there, because you’re painting VoC and Infiltrate as being superior options. To take Infiltrate vs Shroudfield, you’re being disingenuous here by only focusing on the duration of a the basic Shroudfield, not the massive raft of benefits it gives.

For its 8 second duration and 45 second cooldown, Infiltrate has these benefits:

• Whilst Infiltrate is active: +25% Movement Speed.
• Upon leaving stealth: Suppress nearby enemies.

It can be upgraded so that on leaving Stealth you get:

• +30% Damage for 5s
• -90% Threat for 10s
• +50% Damage Reduction for 10s

So according to you an 3 to 6 seconds Stealth, as an Aggro Dump, is superior to 8 Seconds? In those extra 5 seconds the Horde that was just beating you to a pulp will have moved far enough away to get you out of any predicament you were in. Which is why i called it a crutch.. as highlighted by me specifically mention the aggro dump.

Not to mention the -90% Threat generation resulting in less aggro once the 8 seconds end, for a total of 18 seconds of no to low threat (enemy attention).

And let’s not forget how the Veteran Stealth does Suppress enemies when coming out of the Stealth, as there is even a penance to do just that.

Yeah, i see how that is totally inferior as a crutch. 18 Seconds of barely any enemy attention a Suppression, 50% toughness damage reduction for 10 seconds and Full Toughness restore is so much inferior to 3 to 6 seconds, no suppression, 20% Toughness damage reduction for 5 seconds and 40% Toughness restore.

I don’t know what i was thinking.

@SgtHavelock

I don’t know why you’re so against Voice of Command.

I already explained that. It is way overpowered for what it does. And if you don’t see that, then i have to say: You are likely relying on that Crutch.

[Queenie]

shield and bonki is fun so your wall of text is poop.

All classes have specific ways to dive into melee or ranged oriented playstyles. And thats fine. Having no career paths makes this skill tree perfect.

Wanna be Melee VET? Go right side
Wanna go shoot things up go left?
Wanna support and give toughness to the end of times go middle

and the very best part is you can pick and choose what you want.

Ogryn has all “archetypes” you can choose full melee bonkers or ranged or full tank.

Psyker can theoretically play melee focused builds or gun psyker / “vanilla” one

Zealot has some gun buff talents for close quarters making it extremely fun to use for shotguns and so on.

[BatlordCarcas]

I think Crusaders fit more of the Zealot class and would have the Shield and Sword be their choice, Yet I do see where both Vet and Zealot can have the Sword & Shield available and then how cosmetics for vet and zealot can match up to Crusaders shiny armor (as many have become rotated in Commodores Vestures)

[Ashrad]

Honestly if you’re using 2 infilltrate charges for its full duration while also having -90% threat generation you’re kinda shitting on your teammate at that point. Unless you’re using it for Hab Dreyko’s final puzzle or something.

Which is why I never really find the more stealth duration on infiltrate worth it compared to Shroudfield’s benefit.

With its high cooldown infiltrate incentivize its user to use it more conservatively and defensively(always keep 1 charge for survival) while Shroudfield incentivize its user to play more aggressively and leave stealth as soon as possible for the big hit. By the time you need it again it probably will be off cooldown already which make it more productive than infiltrate most of the time.

But yeah, it’s a big crutch for sure if you just looking for a way to not die I guess.

On the topic, I always want mace and shield on Vet for the full Enforcer cosplay but sword and shield? Not really.

[Nish]

@IshanDeston

And i am not saying there is anything wrong with such a button… it is why Zealot Charge restores toughness, after all… but that is just the point. The Devs gave the Veteran two very good options to either dump everything on the teammates or give themselves a lot of space to catch a breath.

That is more options than the Zealot has…

I’m kinda lost you on this one. All 3 of Zealot’s combat abilities works like this, and calling a defensive measure a clutch is really pushing it considering every single Combat Ability in the game is at least partially a defensive measure/has “oh sh-t” application, apart from Executioner’s stance.

Looking at from another direction, even completely taking out these abilities wouldn’t make “Vet ranged play” more desirable. As it stands with ranged focused play you have to work twice as hard for a still worse result than any of the melee build, with one notable exception that being Psyker staff builds.

Currently basically every situation is either better dealt with melee, or can be dealt with a ranged weapon on a melee focused build almost as well as a ranged focus build can, without sacrificing your survivability. So unless you want to gimp yourself or play something different while swallowing the fact that you will be much less efficient there isn’t really any point to playing a ranged focused build on Vet (apart from the fact that there is only a handful of setups with enough ammo to sustain such a playstyle).

I do agree that Veteran completely lost it’s identity since patch 13, both due to the talent tree we have and the fact that previous “focus” the Vet had can be done way better or just as well with melee or by other classes, but the switch to melee for Vets isn’t because it is a crutch, the ranged option is just sh-t comperatively to the general balance, and sometimes barely playable due to ammo constrains… so if you can’t even shoot enough of the time with most of the ranged options why wouldn’t you lean on melee talents more?

[IshanDeston]

@Nish

considering every single Combat Ability in the game is at least partially a defensive measure/has “oh sh-t” application, apart from Executioner’s stance.

Defensive Measure is not an “oh sh**” application. Not every defensive ability gets you out of a tight spot, and Psyker and Ogryn don’t really have that many Defensive abilities and even fewer crutches.

The Psyker’s Dome is a good example of this. It is a defensive measure, but the toughness gain is to slow to be an “oh sh**” button. It also has no stagger or helps you out in any way other than shield you from ranged fire.

Neither Scier’s Gaze nor the Vent has toughness regain. The Vent is an “oh sh**” crutch for people that can’t manage their peril. And in my experience that is what it is mostly taken for. (No i am not counting the odd person that really wants to sell you on how amazing Soul Fire stacks on a horde is, with their Columnus/Autopistol). It does have a Stagger tho.

Scier’s Gaze has no defensive value that i can think of.

The Ogryns Abilities are also very poor in the crutch department and even worse in the defensive aspect. Arguably the Charge can be used as a Crutch, but its cool down isn’t really all that great.

Loyal Protector is pretty much the opposite of a defensive ability or a crutch. You do not get any toughness and you are in for a wold of hurt after the brief stagger. Tho, i am not sure if its even a Stagger or if its just them pausing to recalculate to attack the Ogryn.

Point Blank Barrage does have a bit toughness regain. (2% per Bullet)… and we can argue that the fact that you fire high stagger weapons likely means you will be able to use it defensively, but that isn’t a feat of the Ability itself… so the Point Blank Barrage only really works with a real high ROF weapon as a defensive tool. But i’d argue that PBB doesn’t get you out of a corner, when you are swamped by all sides the way Stealth or VoC does.

@Nish

I’m kinda lost you on this one. All 3 of Zealot’s combat abilities works like this, and calling a defensive measure a clutch is really pushing it considering every single Combat Ability in the game is at least partially a defensive measure/has “oh sh-t” application, apart from Executioner’s stance.

The Veteran’s are a crutch because they do is better than the Zealot. Zealot’s charge restores 50% toughness, Choir is a Channel and thus requires you to get the implement out and make the active decision to stop fighting in order to restore Toughness and Stagger the enemy and the Stealth restores 40% toughness, if you spec into that.

Meanwhile the Veteran’s VoC is a Full Toughness restore and a very heavy stagger, and the Stealth skill is also a full toughness restore and, as i already highlighted between 8 and 36 seconds of low to no threat generation.

A purely defensive ability would not restore toughness. The toughness restore is what allows it to paste over poor understanding of Dodge and Block mechanics.

The combination of aggro dump, stagger and/or toughness regain is what makes it a crutch. The Zealot’s crutches ain’t offensive, because they ain’t that strong. They help you make up for some mistakes, like failing to dodge a Mutant, or underestimating the distance to a gunner.

3 Seconds Stealth and <50% toughness regain isn’t enough to get you out of a corner you got yourself stuck in.

Meanwhile VoC with its high Stagger, full Toughness gain or 8+ seconds of Aggro dump with full toughness is enough to get you out of any situation you got yourself stuck into. And the fact that you become Immune to a bunch of things on Gold Toughness makes matters worse.

@Nish

but the switch to melee for Vets isn’t because it is a crutch, the ranged option is just sh-t comperatively to the general balance, and sometimes barely playable due to ammo constrains…

That just doesn’t line up with my experience in the game. I see people crutching so hard on that VoC. They don’t use it as damage boost… it comes out as their toughness goes down. And there are few Veterans that have the skill to remain “untouched” or do a full Auric Damnation run with ~1 medicae station use.

And Zealots do have some crutches as well. So its not just a Zealot thing, but i see more bad Melee players on Veteran than on Zealot or Ogryn. The only class that has worse Melee players are Psykers. Something about Psykers that makes so few let go of their prescious hard rods, even in situation when the Melee weapon should have come out ages ago.

[Enforest]

@Slyspy

Today I learned that anything that makes a build powerful is a crutch.

Fella’s posts are so cringe, it’s baffling. Should have seen what he posts on Steam forums lol

[Nish]

@IshanDeston

Defensive Measure is not an “oh sh**” application. Not every defensive ability gets you out of a tight spot, and Psyker and Ogryn don’t really have that many Defensive abilities and even fewer crutches.

Okay let’s clear some things up:

Psyker Shriek gives you 25% toughness back instantly through Quietude, and will refill you for a good 5 seconds through Warpfire killing stuff if there are enough enemies. If there aren’t many enemies there isn’t even need for that. It is a very good skill to use as a “oh sh-t” button that works perfectly.

@IshanDeston

Scier’s Gaze has no defensive value that i can think of.

Psyker Scrier’s Gaze generate peril giving you constant toughness regeneration which is very useful when caught off-guard against shooters (due to bullet grace periods) TDR and Movement speed to get out of the way. It’s application as panic button is less strong, but still gives you a small push to survive. It’s constant regen through Warp Expenditure, 20% TDR and movement speed boost is a strong defensive boost together with the 20% crit chance which boost Mattle (5% toughness on crit and +5% MS stacking up to 15%) through the roof.

Psyker Dome isn’t an panic button, but apart from protection from bullets it grants constant **10%**Toughness regeneration and a whopping 50% TDR boost when it falls for a short duration.

@IshanDeston

The Ogryns Abilities are also very poor in the crutch department and even worse in the defensive aspect. Arguably the Charge can be used as a Crutch, but its cool down isn’t really all that great.

I think Ogryn is a crutch in general due the the ridiculous health, toughness and DR it has, but that’s kinda beyond the point.

Ogryn Charge has… checks number 30 second cooldown… 30 seconds. It usually grants you a full toughness refill (10% per target) and if you go Pulverise it also actives delight in destruction landing your average Ogryn into the combined TDR range of 75-80%.

With bruiser the regeneration rate is also very similar to Vet with his own CDR talent. I mean IDK man, but this seems like (and feel like when played) a pretty damn good panic button if you ask me.

Ogryn Point Blank Barrage does not a bit, but a lot of regen: 2%/bullet and 10% on reload. Combined with the Ogryns incredibly large toughness pool (with 2-3 toughness curios) and incredibly high TDR it enables you to duel full squads of shooters/gunners on most weapons. That’s of course on top of already constantly regenerating toughness while bracing. It works as a defensive mesure with not just Stubber, but with Ripper and Kickback too (IDK if other weapons are used with this ability at all I’m just talking about what I played). You can just pop it start shooting and and your will stun or out regen almost any enemy and situation.

Ogryn Royal Protector I personally only use as a short CC. Not like Hybrid Ogryn builds need anything more, it’s the most tanky build out there that just needs to hit things to get topped off constantly. It’s super spammable with Go Again!. Non the less while I consider this very adequate panic button on an already OP build it is behind with defensive capabilities compered to most other options.

@IshanDeston

The Veteran’s are a crutch because they do is better than the Zealot. Zealot’s charge restores 50% toughness, Choir is a Channel and thus requires you to get the implement out and make the active decision to stop fighting in order to restore Toughness and Stagger the enemy and the Stealth restores 40% toughness, if you spec into that.

Zealot Charge is an absolute multi tool. Big hit, buff, repositioning, AoE CC, Toughness regain, 2 charges, (somewhat) spammable.

Choir is also super good, probably most comparable to VoC. It’s most people doesn’t run it, and it’s a bigger shame most people just sit on it and use it as a panic button. It is incredibly effective as an opener or engage tool, since it grants very big party wide buffs if talents are used.

Zealot Stealth has a 6 second duration because unless you are doing some low-health monster oneshot build you are going to run Master-Crafted. It also gives you regen and TDR when it drops, and if you are also Loner you’ll also regen a bunch while you sitting in stealth (even more with toughness regen curios).

It’s more than enough to get you out of any situation you found yourself as well as Infiltrate can, with a lower CD of course with more reliable CRD. You only need to look at those knife Zealots getting enabled to run around the map whole game to see how much power it has.

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Now back to my point:

You can remove toughness from infiltrate or stagger from VoC it wouldn’t make less Vet play melee, it would just make less people play Vet as a whole. These abilities aren’t OP (I mean VoC is strong but not OP), infiltrate isn’t even that strong, it’s just why would you ever pick Executioner’s stance on Vet apart from some few very specific builds that aren’t even good. There is no reason to.

@IshanDeston

That just doesn’t line up with my experience in the game. I see people crutching so hard on that VoC. They don’t use it as damage boost… it comes out as their toughness goes down. And there are few Veterans that have the skill to remain “untouched” or do a full Auric Damnation run with ~1 medicae station use.

I mean yeah there are bad players. VoC as well as Choir is best used as an engage tool, or to CC instead of an panic button, but that has nothing to do with Vets choosing to go with melee and VoC over a ranged build.

[Ralendil]

@Queenie

Wanna be Melee VET? Go right side
Wanna go shoot things up go left?
Wanna support and give toughness to the end of times go middle

You can be the 3 at same time. Just don’t pick keystones.

@Nish

You can remove toughness from infiltrate or stagger from VoC it wouldn’t make less Vet play melee, it would just make less people play Vet as a whole. These abilities aren’t OP (I mean VoC is strong but not OP), infiltrate isn’t even that strong, it’s just why would you ever pick Executioner’s stance on Vet apart from some few very specific builds that aren’t even good. There is no reason to.

I totally agree with this. VoC is not OP, but surely the strongest ability cause… it is so USEFUL!!!
Exec, with the ranged weapon DPS of the Veteran, I don’t see a clear reason to take it. Highlighting enemies? for what?

[IshanDeston]

@Nish

Psyker Shriek gives you 25% toughness back instantly through Quietude

That necessitates you having Peril. If you are swamped in Melee, you are likely not riding 90% peril anymore… probably not even 50% peril. And yeah, you’ll likely about to say “but you can take the Talent to generate Peril by Blocking”… at which point i’d say that if you are smart enough to know about this interaction you are likely also smart enough to use a Force Sword and then chain Peril with the immensive stagger of the Force Push… and thus don’t need the Shriek in the first place.

@Nish

Psyker Scrier’s Gaze generate peril giving you constant toughness regeneration

Assuming you took that Warp Expenditure… and even then its 2,5% Toughness for 10% Peril Generated. I am sorry but 25% Toughness regain over what… 5 to 10 seconds?.. that doesn’t sound like much of a Defensive tool. You’d regenerate more Toughness from using a Stave and Soulstealer, which gives you 7,5% toughness on a Warp Damage kill… and Scrier’s Gazes unfortunately doesn’t turn your regular “bullets” into Warp Damage. So using a Trauma Staff’s secondary attack will likely net you more Toughness in a single attack than an activation of Scier’s Gaze.

@Nish

[Ogryn Charge]
IDK man, but this seems like (and feel like when played) a pretty damn good panic button if you ask me.

In my experience it gets people deeper into trouble on Auric, but fine enough, i am not going to disagree with you, as i am really not here to go even more off topic to discuss the finer differences here. We are going further and further off into the weeds.

@Nish

Ogryns incredibly large toughness pool (with 2-3 toughness curios)

You can’t assume people equip toughness curios. I am not saying that people that don’t aren’t wrong… i am saying that when it comes to people requiring a crutch it is usually because they don’t understand the mechanics of the game enough.

@Nish

Ogryn Point Blank Barrage does not a bit, but a lot of regen: 2%/bullet and 10% on reload. Combined with the Ogryns incredibly large toughness pool

Yes, and it requires you to use the right weapon. Sure an Acklys Twin Stubber with its 10 bullets per second can generate 20% toughness. Meanwhile if you brought a Gorgonum Twin Stubber with its 6 bullets per second, you only get 12%… and if you used a Ripper Gun, then we are down to 0,11 bullets per second.

It can be a crutch, if you are doing it right. But if you are doing it right, you probably don’t need the crutch.

@Nish

You can remove toughness from infiltrate or stagger from VoC it wouldn’t make less Vet play melee, it would just make less people play Vet as a whole.

I don’t believe that. I think if you remove Gold Toughness and Stagger from VoC barely anyone is gonna play VoC for melee anymore. I think we’d see at least 75% of the people change over to Stealth and then dump all the Aggro on Teammates, and if you removed the toughness gain from Stealth then, we’d see Melee Veteran’s disappear. What would remain are the most dedicated of Melee Veterans only, the ones that are mechanically sound.

I also think if we increase the swap speed of the Plasma Gun the plasma gun will disappear from use over night for the same reason.

[Ralendil]

@IshanDeston

I think if you remove Gold Toughness and Stagger from VoC barely anyone is gonna play VoC for melee anymore.

Hmmm… honestly, I have put there’s two days the +50 toughness talent. Before that, I had never used it. Must say that’s great for solo games but,
about removing stagger??? what would remain to VoC then???
Also, I played more melee veteran with stealth, than with VoC… but the ability has nothing to do with my choice.
If you don’t use keystones, allowing points to get +30% damage on weakspots hits and taking several talents in the melee tree is a good idea. I would even say it is an obvious choice in comparison of what you could pick in replacement.
I have only 1 build, extremely specialized that does not use any “melee” talent.

In fact, in comparison with zealot, you can get really good melee level on a veteran with few picked talents.

About plasma gun… nothing to say. This weapon needs badly a nerf about cleave and the way it deals too much damages without being charged. Nothing more.

[Nish]

@IshanDeston

I don’t believe that. I think if you remove Gold Toughness and Stagger from VoC barely anyone is gonna play VoC for melee anymore. I think we’d see at least 75% of the people change over to Stealth and then dump all the Aggro on Teammates, and if you removed the toughness gain from Stealth then, we’d see Melee Veteran’s disappear. What would remain are the most dedicated of Melee Veterans only, the ones that are mechanically sound.

Yeah if you nerf something into the ground to be the worst ability in game game people won’t use it.

It works with weapons too. See what happened to bolter. I see it once in the blue moon, and it’s isn’t even useless weapon in the game. it’s an good boss burster on both melee Vet and Zealot, it’s just does nothing else and an ammo hog if you actually want to shoot with the thing.

[Ralendil]

@Nish

See what happened to bolter. I see it once in the blue moon, and it’s isn’t even useless weapon in the game. it’s an good boss burster on both melee Vet and Zealot, it’s just does nothing else and an ammo hog if you actually want to shoot with the thing.

If I don’t use Bolter, this is for 2 reasons:

• main reason, this is not the weapon I prefer in term of sound and feeling
• main obvious reason in term of gameplay: they removed the possibility to open shields of bulwark

The second reason is the most important one. This nerf was unneeded and makes the bolter not worth to pick it.