The biggest issue is that what do you do to make stuff harder than legend? Mechanically you’re doing the same thing in onslaught and deeds anyway, there is just more or harder to kill stuff, once you really get down to brass tacks once you master the game it really doesn’t get much harder even with modifiers, any introduction of an additional difficulty with adjusted health / damage pools or more enemies will just enforce meta style play. Example, people doing hypertwitch almost always seem to have a shade, why? Potential for multiple boss spawns (we’ve had 4 at one time up) how do you deal with this? Oh you take the 1 class that just instakills them, ez.
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That’s why I would like them to play with stuff like dodges and how they stopped tracking you, cleave, stagger and removal of temp hp.
Dodging:
Having to give more attention is in my opinion the way to go. If you have to time your dodges or if you even have to decide in which direction you dodge (like troll) would be interesting.
Stagger:
I would change it so that only very few attacks are even able to stagger a CW and other elites won’t be staggered as easily as well.
Cleave:
You know it’s actually quite something if your attacks don’t manage to just stagger every single rat in the horde in front of you. You will have to adjust by getting mobile or sticking together.
Temp hp:
If it is disabled you start to actually care that slave rat hit suddenly isn’t a joke anymore and they add up fast.
All of this even without touching anything else in Legend will catapult it easily to cata lvl.
Doing this will disrupt balance. I imagine ranged will have a bit of a comeback. Stagger and cleave values will have to be rebalanced across the board.
So what are your troughs on this?
Hard one to balance since some weapons with low cleave are already fairly top tier, dual axes, dual daggers, it would end up just power creeping those even more while making things like 2h sword feel worse than they already do.
I would like the fast decay thats supposed to happen, but honestly Im not sure how big of a change this would be for the people saying legend is too easy, I know I don’t really rely on THP as anyone.
Not sure how feel about cleave and stagger, I think some things that do stagger shouldn’t, or maybe shouldn’t stagger as hard as they do ect.
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Well what I wrote was a bit over all. I’m all for weapon specialization and I’m not in the opinion that it’s completely balanced right now just better than ever before in V2 life.
Two-Handers and alike
Dedicated anti horde weapons especially immobile ones like 2h should have the edge. It should be their strength to be able to control hordes by attacking but that doesn’t mean they will deal massive dmg. In V1 there were weapons that could stagger infinite targets but would stop to deal any dmg to target number X because of the dmg drop off. Why? Pushes already have infinite targets and that favors weapons that react fast especially if there is hyperdensity. It’s not guaranteed to be balanced but that would be for a BBB to find out.
Dual Axes, Dual Dagger and alike
Single target weapons especially if they are very fast need to have their cleave reduced to you guessed it a single target this way they won’t excel against hordes but won’t be unable to deal with them.
Yep It would need one big and nice BBB.
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But they currently don’t cleave and handle hordes easily, is what im saying, thats why if we nerfed cleave, stuff like DD and Dual Axes which basically have 0 cleave now would just be insane because they are already very very good.
They actually are able to cleave two targets (depends on the targets) but yes I too don’t really know what else can be done. As single target weapons they should be able to remove single low tier enemies in one or two swings adding this up will always give them quite some anti horde. We might reduce their 
down to 1 (2)?
I also think this is kinda a problem on the new dual wield as well what do you think?
They only cleave 2 with a crit or stacking power, either way reducing them to single target isn’t going to really change how good they are, but if you reduce cleave on slow weapons they will just be even worse. I feel like a stam reduction is also useless, Stam in general with the dodge meta is kinda “meh” but additionally just run 2+ stam on neck and weapons and give yourself 4(3 if changed) which is more than enough.
I think that fast weapons have always been better, the mobility reduction on heavier stuff really hinders gameplay and outside of the fun factor it never seemed to have enough positives to outweigh lighter stuff, but thats just my opinion. I love exe sword for example on Merc, but there are often times it still feels clunky and his class makes up for a lot of the weapons natural downsides.
Yes there isn’t much space currently for slow and heavy weapons because the light weapons have become just way to jack of all trades.
Taking a 2h should be a trade of sacreficing the ability to move and react as fast for superior attack and cleave. A general shift into that direction would be appreciated.
I would probably not remove any cleave there as stated here:
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At the end of the day, I’d rather have them not dabble with too much stuff anymore. The game is in a pretty solid spot now mechanics-wise and I agree that Onslaught and Deathwish are very poor ways to balance difficulty. Since all the break points and everything does out the window, the meta narrows even more, you just stack crits and attack speed and slay away (to be fair, nobody gives a flying dongliz about bookos right now since it is modded realm, so that does make the challenge a bit easier), but even on official with the hardest of deeds, the game doesn’t become significantly harder if you know what you’re doing - and when push comes to shove, what are you going to do about it? That’s the nature of the thing, you can make the game as hard as you want, at some point, it will become trivial with enough practice as long as the game isn’t “cheating” you out. At a certain point, balancing a game to become harder without it becoming cheap is almost impossible.
I like what Tripwire did with their approach to difficulty ob Killing Floor 2. Enemies become only slightly beefier, but they become more, waves have harder and more bigger enemies sooner and with higher difficulties, enemies get different attacks and behave slightly differently.
Fortunes of War is a good example how that could sorta look like in VT2. FoW does derive its difficulty a bit too much from cheapness (shoving more than 4 disablers down your throat is… well) and like with Hypertwitch, you almost always see someone running shade to quickly dispatch bosses, but I think with the new deed system coming up and everything, I think focus should be on how FS can give us varying challenges by introducing new mechanics or new ways to implement old mechanics. I think we will need to have new enemies thrown into the mix and just think about how everything would be thrown around if a 3rd enemy faction (e.g. Beastmen) would suddenly be in there.
How do new enemies balance the game?
How does everything become trivial even Twitch + Vanguard + BHFS + [your choice] together with everything I and Revy talked about?
It doesn’t it will only be barely beatable unless you cheese everything you possibly can. There is no way I could ever gain the skill to just casually walk trough it.
Not everything becomes trivial. Triviality is something that happens if something isn’t done good enough.
I set up twitch mode a while back on a different PC and it was a pain in the arse. It needed OBS broadcasting an empty stream to twitch to make it think a stream was running.
I’d very much like to increase the difficulty in games with this. Is there an easier way than above to do this?
@arknox You can pick any 24 hours stream on twitch and type that in and it’ll run twitch mode, with random events rather than chat-voted things.
I use any 24hour music stream and host and it play twitch just fine.
On the kind-of off topic cleave and stagger, I think the current situation where a HS with a sword and faster dodge mows down a horde, taking less damage than a FK with a 2h sword highlights the complete wrongness of the current situation. The FK is handicapping himself by picking a heavy weapon.
As @Haxorzist has said, it is a combination of the long dodge-dumbness of the enemies, some weapons being able to stagger a lot when they shouldn’t (Sienna can dodge dance a CW with a dagger and come out on top… she shouldn’t be able to do this with a bloody dagger!) and everyone being a jack-of-all-trades.
The DLC will surely feature a new map or two, and it’s possible the big patch/mutators will come all at the same time but there’s little point adding new enemies, new talents, new careers etc until the tweaking of the balance gets a bit more settled. Otherwise we’ll just end up with triple boss spawns and everyone will run Shade, Zealot BoP with Str Pot, HS Longbow and UC Fireball+Str Pot anti armour.
The current armoured units aren’t a big deal any more, because you can run rings round them. Patrols might be a little hiccup but usually they get downed in seconds.
DLC weapons have been OP since launch to, you know, attract people to buy the DLC>
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KF 2 does it, so does DRG. It can work and I find it preferable. Not as the sole way to make a game more challenging, but more varied enemies with more varied attack patterns can increase the challenge.
Making something barely beatable requires zero effort, that’s what I was getting at. Either it is a reasonable and fair challenge, then it will become “trivial” eventually, at least that’s my experience with games (at least no game would come to mind where this isn’t the case), since skill develops. Or it is just hard for its own sake, kinda like with those artificially difficult “I wanna be the guy/boshy/whatever” games, Super Kaizo World or those funky Super Mario Maker levels.
Not saying that I wouldn’t be in favour of changes, but there are reasonable limits as to how to make a game harder without it being cheesy and cheap. Spamming hordes of enemies at you is only getting you so far without it becoming redundant and this is what I was specifically getting at because people have been pointing towards modded realm and Onslaught and Deathwish. It requires the same skill sets, the same motions and the same awareness and it shows, people who have no problem with Legend right now perform almost equally as fine with these two mods, at least it holds true for me. I just wouldn’t be in favour of just increasing spawns and enemy health, that changes almost nothing other than the scoreboard at the end 
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