About Stats and the Scoreboard

[AnemicFish]

I’ve seen people talking about the scoreboard a bit, and I was a little disappointed to see that there wasn’t really much of a mission summary after the game compared to vermintide 2. If I remember correctly, after dying partway in a mission you couldn’t see anything at the end either. I also saw people bringing up “green circle chasers” as a reason to remove features that already existed, instead of improving on the scoreboard itself and maybe making better incentives for players reaching different stats in a mission.

People were saying things like “You don’t have any justifiable reason to need a scoreboard outside of your ego and that it’s overall a detriment to the games ecosystem”, and I just find this to be such a lame reason. It’s like if a teacher said something like “Okay class, a couple of parents have found the high-grade red-circle checkmark chaser students to be a toxic presence on the rest of the students, so we’ve decided to remove the numbered grading system as whole.” And it also reminds me of the Netflix Amy Schumer comedy special situation. Lets remove the 5 star grading system on all movies that has been around for so long and is a useful way for people to see how a movie/show is received by the public, because people were massively showing dislike for something. Now we have a thumbs up/thumbs down and a “percentage matching to you”, which just feels so much worse.

After 3000+ hours in this game, I can barely remember the times someone has been snippy to other people over scoreboard related things. And if they were? Who cares? The skaven don’t care about my emotional well-being, and why should I expect everyone in the reikland to conform to meet my expectations? Disagreements happen in games all the time, and not everyone will be respectful to you either (just like real life). Trash talk them back, ignore them, block them in steam, uninstall and let some randos ruin the game experience for you as a whole, etc. Deal with it in whatever way you deem fitting. If I’m playing a class that isn’t built for constant F spamming/hagbane Waystalkers on legend; I understand that my class has a different role to fill and that there isn’t enough enemy hp to go around for other classes to raise the stats necessarily. I also learn to fulfill my own role and play as good as I can myself, because those rushing kill thirsty players also deserve to get their damage if they are good enough to maintain the playstyle. There is a risk to running off ahead or playing selfishly in mind, and if they die alone they can hold the L themselves and adapt, or disconnect and queue up again to do it again. I always try to play as best as I can to reduce my damage taken/healing wasted, and a huge reward at the end of the run is seeing that I took hardly any damage taken and potentially even outdamaged the risky circle chaser too.

All of the questionable green circle brains existing, doesn’t justify (to me), why I should have my own satisfaction of seeing some payoffs for the run nerfed/impacted. Why should a feature that could easily be turned off by a visibility toggle in the menus, be reduced/removed entirely? Games like CoD, CsGo, Valorant, all have way more “toxic” interactions over team stats than from what I ever would experience in Vermintide, but it would insane for them to remove a scoreboard because of it.

Which leads me to my main question now: Do we know if there is/will be any plans to have a persistent stat tracker for the game?

After playing lots of Vermintide 2, I had noticed way too late that there was a mod for tracking kills on a weapon in the workshop. I’ve always wished there was a way to see how many different kinds of enemies you’ve killed on a character, total deaths/downs, missions completed, deeds done (outside of completing the deeds portrait challenges), potions used, etc. that you could have going. Especially now that the scoreboard is gone and we have a new system of doing challenges for weapon loot, I really think it would be such a cool feature to have some way to see holistic account wide progression.

Especially since we’ve seen the scoreboard method changed, I think it would be more important now to have some sort of way to see your own personal progression. Outside of just enjoying the gameplay as a whole + and getting new experiences playing with new people in QP, seeing your performance at the run is a SIGNIFICANT reason why I still enjoy playing vermintide. After you’ve done a lot of the progression/challenges/game modes (there is no ranked weave queueing in ba-sing-se), seeing the varied stat results at the end of a match encourages you to striving to improve and still gives you something new/constantly different to see.

[Tzcheese]

@AnemicFish

Do we know if there is/will be any plans to have a persistent stat tracker for the game?

Depends what you mean by “persistent”.

They’ve stated that they’re looking into adding a scoreboard that tracks appropriate things, though there’s no news on exactly what will be tracked.

[Nenjin]

VT2 had a mod that tracked life time kills per career, kills of each enemy type, kills with each specific weapon, deaths to each enemy type, etc…

If FS hasn’t promoted that then it’s probably not on the table for release. I’d typically say it’s one of those “Yeah that’ll be a nice thing a year or two down the road” but it never made it to VT2 as 1st party content so…

[AnemicFish]

Like in games when you go to a section where you can see all the relevant stats being tracked somewhere. Usually tied near your profile somewhere, it’s all the basic ones like total kills, assists, deaths, etc. And thank-you for the info, I’m glad they’re looking into that to some degree.

[AnemicFish]

Yeah that’s probably the one I was referencing. I had seen the mod way way later after I killed tons of things, so it felt kind of pointless to use it so late after. I would really love something like that, but yeah if they didn’t say anything about it, then it probably won’t be done then as you say.

@Nenjin

I’d typically say it’s one of those “Yeah that’ll be a nice thing a year or two down the road” but it never made it to VT2 as 1st party content so…

Haha, yeah fair.

[Padds]

@AnemicFish

I also saw people bringing up “green circle chasers”

a rather deregoatory spin on it that some used yes, but the issue is it being a purely competitive score card lifted from death match games, as it ranked people comparativley over a zero sum game (ie my kills are kllls you cant get) . the only incentive it can provide and influence it can have is to make people play in that way … ie competing over kills .

@AnemicFish

as a reason to remove features that already existed

well lets be clear FS observed peoples behaviour in v2 and decided to remove it, they cited toxicity i and others added others reasons for it to go.

@AnemicFish

People were saying things like “You don’t have any justifiable reason to need a scoreboard outside of your ego and that it’s overall a detriment to the games ecosystem”, and I just find this to be such a lame reason.

and you would be right , but feelings got riles one side was calling everyone that wanted it gone scared children lacking in talent . but the logical reasons were in the simple mathmatical statistical nature of a game in the tide style. variance being too high for the numbers to actually represent what people were saying they were for.
theres the fundemental issue of as you get better ytour numbers drop so if you want to use the scoreboard “to improve” you would actually need to play slower and worse to see the numbers go up
then of course the issue of it measuring performance not capacity. ie 9/10 times all its telling you is which character had the highest movement speed.

@AnemicFish

Which leads me to my main question now: Do we know if there is/will be any plans to have a persistent stat tracker for the game?

wont be there at launch , they are looking at ways to measure and display stats that actually mean something and promote co operative play.

[KarampaFIN]

People were saying things like “You don’t have any justifiable reason to need a scoreboard outside of your ego and that it’s overall a detriment to the games ecosystem”, and I just find this to be such a lame reason.

As someone that has used this argument in the past, you are taking it partially out of context. Those usually defending scoreboards tend to tilt towards wanting them to be public, something that they can see and as a result judge other people over. If you asked about private scoreboards, ones where only you can see your stats to see your own performance, this was unacceptable as you ‘absolutely need to see other people’s performance in addition to your own’. It is at that point this argument fails to show anything but the need to stroke one’s ego.

I am all for private stats, I’d like to be able to track my own performance and improvements as I progress along the game, but I can’t be bothered to be vote kicked out of a match because a group of neckbeards opened my stats, compared it to their spreadsheet, and noted that my performance is 1,2% under optimal so obviously I would have to be carried through the mission as I clearly don’t know how to play, as after all, my stats are not high enough to prove that.

But as of right now, we only know they are working on a end-of-screen scoreboard and that is it, to answer your question.

[freqlectic]

@KarampaFIN

Post 7

People were saying things like “You don’t have any justifiable reason to need a scoreboard outside of your ego and that it’s overall a detriment to the games ecosystem”, and I just find this to be such a lame reason.

As someone that has used this argument in the past, you are taking it partially out of context. Those usually defending scoreboards tend to tilt towards wanting them to be public, something that they can see and as a result judge other people over. If you asked about private scoreboards, ones where only you can see your stats to see your own performance, this was unacceptable as you ‘absolutely need to see other people’s performance in addition to your own’. It is at that point this argument fails to show anything but the need to stroke one’s ego.

I am all for private stats, I’d like to be able to track my own performance and improvements as I progress along the game, but I can’t be bothered to be vote kicked out of a match because a group of neckbeards opened my stats, compared it to their spreadsheet, and noted that my performance is 1,2% under optimal so obviously I would have to be carried through the mission as I clearly don’t know how to play, as after all, my stats are not high enough to prove that.

But as of right now, we only know they are working on a end-of-screen scoreboard and that is it, to answer your question.

There was a suggestion in one of the other threads to give the player their stats and give the stats for the other teams members (collectively) as a reference. It could also be, for a full team, 1/3 of total kills, headshots, etc.

I doubt that the suggestion above would satisfy the personality type you describe in your post, but it would be a middle ground and stick to showing statistics that you can make some kind of sense of. Then again, the scoreboard will always only be useful for whatever purpose you choose to use it for - be it good, bad, relevant, toxic, for banter, etc.

[Riku]

@AnemicFish

“Okay class, a couple of parents have found the high-grade red-circle checkmark chaser students to be a toxic presence on the rest of the students, so we’ve decided to remove the numbered grading system as whole.

i find it a bit hilarious that you use this example,

as there actual studies that strongly suggest that numerical grading systems in shools are partially
responsable for the ever increasing stress children and young adults go through, and in return results in increasing numbers of depressive individuals.

i get what your saying, you don’t want to be told how you cannot enjoy your game.
but that was bad example…

as a person who were part of this discussion from the beginning i have to clear a few things up.
as some things get miss represented.

1. when it started no one actually believed DT would ship without scoreboards.
2. people were just talking about some negative aspects that can be attributed to the scoreboard.
3. no one asked FS pls remove the scoreboard because i Believe XY
4. there were simply claims that the scoreboard is inadequate at doing the job people want it for, and we wanted a different approach.
5. now FS showed a DT beta build without scoreboard, and we suddenly are responsible
6. people claim we need to find reasons for the removal, even tho it wasn’t our decision

i personally see it like this:
we have an clean slate, that’s a fact,
and now we can ask for anything
but many people just want the plain ol SB from v2 with the same ol problems and that’s it

and i ask myself why do we have to be chained down by such an awful stat device when we could expansive stats tracking a whole slew of amazing stats calculated over hundreds of runs?

[grasmann]

@Riku

no one actually believed DT would ship without scoreboards

Yes, exactly.

@Riku

as a person who were part of this discussion from the beginning

@Riku

no one asked FS pls remove the scoreboard

@Riku

there were simply claims that the scoreboard is inadequate at doing the job people want it for, and we wanted a different approach

So, you simultaneously didn’t ask fatshark to remove it and critiziced it and wanted a different approach.
And whatever did or didn’t happen you were part of it from the beginning.
Interesting.

@Riku

now FS showed a DT beta build without scoreboard, and we suddenly are responsible

Nobody would’ve held you responsible if threads asking to get the scoreboard back wouldn’ve been flooded with arguments why that isn’t good and the other way around.
If you see something that you like is missing and ask to get it back and people start arguing with you that the thing you want is useless and promotes only bad things that you’ve never seen in 3000 hours playing the previous game.
Then, yes, it’s kinda hard not to see these people as the responsible ones.

@Riku

people claim we need to find reasons for the removal, even tho it wasn’t our decision

Literally nobody claimed that.
In fact we’re tired of hearing the reasons because we don’t understand them.
We completely disregard the reasons.

@Riku

but many people just want the plain ol SB from v2 with the same ol problems and that’s it

The same ol problems, which are completely subjective apparently.

@Riku

and i ask myself why do we have to be chained down by such an awful stat device when we could expansive stats tracking a whole slew of amazing stats calculated over hundreds of runs?

That would be cool too but having one thing doesn’t mean we can’t have the other.

[grasmann]

@KarampaFIN

Those usually defending scoreboards tend to tilt towards wanting them to be public, something that they can see and as a result judge other people over. If you asked about private scoreboards, ones where only you can see your stats to see your own performance, this was unacceptable as you ‘absolutely need to see other people’s performance in addition to your own’. It is at that point this argument fails to show anything but the need to stroke one’s ego.

Someone who wants them to be public must be evil and toxic?
How is that logic reasonable?
We simply want to see how everyone did.
That’s neither bad nor good.

@KarampaFIN

but I can’t be bothered to be vote kicked out of a match because a group of neckbeards opened my stats, compared it to their spreadsheet, and noted that my performance is 1,2% under optimal

Nobody would ever do that.
And I have only seen people get kicked like maybe 10 times in 3000 hours playtime in vermintide 2.
Also someone who likes the scoreboard is a neckbeard apparently? ok…

[Riku]

@grasmann

So, you simultaneously didn’t ask fatshark to remove it and critiziced it and wanted a different approach.
And whatever did or didn’t happen you were part of it from the beginning.
Interesting.

removing and implementing something differently is a big difference yes. i don’t know what you think you got me with…

@grasmann

Nobody would’ve held you responsible if threads asking to get the scoreboard back wouldn’ve been flooded with arguments why that isn’t good and the other way around.
If you see something that you like is missing and ask to get it back and people start arguing with you that the thing you want is useless and promotes only bad things that you’ve never seen in 3000 hours playing the previous game.
Then, yes, it’s kinda hard not to see these people as the responsible ones.

i mean this a fair criticism there are definitely people defending this decision to the utmost willing to make themself the prime target.
but im not gonna argue with you what the Scoreboard actually does or doesn’t to people.
i have a quite different opinion.

@grasmann

Literally nobody claimed that.
In fact we’re tired of hearing the reasons because we don’t understand them.
We completely disregard the reasons.

yes people were quite literally asking me for my reasoning behind the removal. it might not be overall narrative of the discussion but this did in Fact happen.

@grasmann

The same ol problems, which are completely subjective apparently.

if you agree that scoreboards are a tool for improvement than you have to accept that their way of depicting data is suboptimal for that purpose, (not saying useless) and that’s a problem.
with any form of evaluating data you want to eliminate as many point of error as possible and human interpretation is one of them.
if you don’t defend this position you are of Course free to disagree.

@Riku

and i ask myself why do we have to be chained down by such an awful stat device when we could expansive stats tracking a whole slew of amazing stats calculated over hundreds of runs?

you can have many things at the same time, i personally don’t Believe that maintaining a thing while having another making the first thing obsolete is worth it.

[grasmann]

@Padds

and you would be right , but feelings got riles one side was calling everyone that wanted it gone scared children lacking in talent .

I think you’re talking about me.

@Padds

but the logical reasons were in the simple mathmatical statistical nature of a game in the tide style. variance being too high for the numbers to actually represent what people were saying they were for.
theres the fundemental issue of as you get better ytour numbers drop so if you want to use the scoreboard “to improve” you would actually need to play slower and worse to see the numbers go up
then of course the issue of it measuring performance not capacity. ie 9/10 times all its telling you is which character had the highest movement speed.

Ye, bla bla again.
I for one don’t feel too entitled for raw numbers.

[grasmann]

@Riku

i mean this a fair criticism there are definitely people defending this decision to the utmost willing to make themself the prime target.

Wow, so brave, and for such a noble cause.
I think you should get an award for this.
Maybe a medal for bravery.
We will engrave it.
“Stood unwavering in the face of a different opinion about a table of numbers.”

@Riku

if you agree that scoreboards are a tool for improvement than you have to accept that their way of depicting data is suboptimal for that purpose, (not saying useless) and that’s a problem.
with any form of evaluating data you want to eliminate as many point of error as possible and human interpretation is one of them.
if you don’t defend this position you are of Course free to disagree.

If you break your arm and it never heals completely, do you cut it off?
I mean it’s a suboptimal arm, right? And that’s a problem, right?

And if human interpretation is a point of error that must be eliminated, then by all means just get rid of all information, because there’s always human interpretation at the end.

@Riku

you can have many things at the same time, i personally don’t Believe that maintaining a thing while having another making the first thing obsolete is worth it.

If you’re already collecting data for one feature you can use that same data to feed another feature.
The additional element is just the UI part after the mission and that shouldn’t be witchery to get done.

[zaygr]

Well, it is Fatshark’s other MO, if they can’t fix it, just remove it. RIP unchained push venting, enemy slot system, decent trait and property reroll options, loot.

[akaLuckyEye]

Grading in school is for determining what knowledge level a student has in specific subjects (depending on where in the world you live I guess). A scoreboard is a competition between groups or individuals. Two different things in my opinion.

I think we have to differentiate between “scoreboard” & “statistics”. A scoreboard creates competition. Statistics are information.

Why I don’t like a public scoreboard is that it can teach players to think that killing the most in the group is the goal. Because that’s what the scoreboard tracks. Which is, in my opinion, counterproductive in a cooperative game. And you are right that you can just block these people, my block list on steam is long with V2 players I don’t want to play with. That’ll not change my main concern that the scoreboard teach players, especially new ones, that the scores at the end are important.

You mentioned a mod that track kills on weapons, weapon kill counter I think it’s called. That’s statistics in my eyes & something that’s fun to have in games. Especially if it’s linked to challenges that give you skins after, let’s say, 100/1000/10 000/100 000/ 1 000 000 kills for that specific weapon. That creates personal goals instead of a competition between the players.

I’m not saying competition is bad. It has value, especially between friends. I just don’t think that the scoreboard should compare players’ scores at the end. Add an option to put the end scoreboard on private, friends only or public. Like you can with loadout in V2 if it’s important for some people to show their score. And focus instead on personal statistics linked to challenges that unlocks skins & frames.

[grasmann]

@akaLuckyEye

Why I don’t like a public scoreboard is that it can teach players to think that killing the most in the group is the goal. Because that’s what the scoreboard tracks.

Killing many enemies is always better than killing fewer enemies, with every class.
You can compensate for a missing tank by just killing everything even faster.

@akaLuckyEye

And you are right that you can just block these people, my block list on steam is long with V2 players I don’t want to play with.

That says more about you, than about these people you blocked.
You know how many people are on my blocklist?
Nobody.

@akaLuckyEye

You mentioned a mod that track kills on weapons, weapon kill counter I think it’s called. That’s statistics in my eyes & something that’s fun to have in games.

I like the mod too but as a statistical value the kill count for specific weapons is not really usefull in any context.

@akaLuckyEye

Add an option to put the end scoreboard on private, friends only or public. Like you can with loadout in V2 if it’s important for some people to show their score.

Yeah, perfect.
Then people can shame the “score-hiders”. XD
If you’re really worried about toxicity then this could very well backfire tremendously.

[akaLuckyEye]

@grasmann

Calm down & breathe, it can’t be easy being so worked up all the time.
Try box breathing (square breathing) it might help.

Good luck in life, it seems like you need it.

[Stalgard]

We want scoreboards the community has already spoken on this multiple times in multiple polls its up to fatshark to implement it in a way that represents our wishes. Which they have stated they are trying to do so.

[grasmann]

Give me Scorebooooard.