Spear has double the push/block angle, built in BCR that is nearly on par with shields, no malus to dodge, a wider push radius and one extra stamina shield.
Spear has arguably a better attack pattern with more sweeps that do about as much dmg as the stabs, much more stagger which gives even more crowd control and on average more DPS.
Halberd does a bit more dmg against single elites like CW’s and Stormvermin.
So why the hell is the spear so superior to the halberd? Why does it have double the push/block angle even though the halberd is only slightly shorter? Why does it have innate block cost reduction? It’s a wooden stick, how exactly does it block attacks better? Why are it’s sweeps so damn effective even though visually it looks to be purely a stabbing weapon (Kerillian’s spear was at least far more bladed which made sense for the sweeps). On top of all of this, it has superior crowd control while sacrificing only a bit in elite killing power (arguable even). The halberd isn’t even that bad, yet the spear is just better in every way. It’s the best melee weapon Kruber has, nothing else compares.
If Halberd was to be made on par with the Spear, I’d love to see it’s Attack Speed nerf reverted, but even then, Spear shouldn’t have built-in BCR nor so much push-attack stagger power.
The problem isn’t Spear. Fatshark must buff Halberd. In this game there are so many unused weapons… if everytime they nerf the best options, we will fight wtih bare hands and we will have a very boring game (an easy example is Handmaiden: a crowd control career with weapons that bounce against enemies like they were made of rubber).
Game balance needs to be maintained as well. Spear is undoubtedly one of the strongest melee weapons in the game currently. It’s a jack of all trades, but also a master of all. I’d much rather Fatshark nerf the spear, rather than buff everything to spear levels, since that would blur the line between roles and make all weapons feel the same with the same weaknesses and strengths.
As I see it personally, halberd is in a decent state where it’s not overpowered, however, spear is, and should be nerfed accordingly, especially considering it has some features that, in my eyes, don’t make sense.
The problem is spear, its way too powerfull, not the different way. Otherwise we will go into buffspiral that will be idiotic, previously halberd and exe was on par as most usefull weapons now both are outclassed by spear, yeah no just nerf spear to be on par with them
Halberd was never as good as exe, inferior cleave and inferior anti single target, the only merit if i am not mistaken was that it is somewhat more mobile with better reach.
Which is not much of a merit given how hordes and spawns tend to work.
I too think that weapons ought to be buffed rather than nerfed, or we´ll have a heap of “too niche” weapons that easily kill their users the moment a slightly unfavorable melee occurs.
Like the elf axe for instance.
However the spear might be slightly OP still, but there should be no major nerfs to avoid rendering it too weak to have any point aside from the spearhead.
It’s not ‘slightly OP’, it straight up IS OP. It’s a jack of all trades, master of all weapon that doesn’t have a weakness. If we buffed everything to spear levels, the game would be too easy and the weapons would feel far too similar with no different roles to fill.
I know people don’t like nerfs, but they’re needed to maintain balance, and I really don’t get the ‘we need to buff everything into the stratosphere’ crowd.
inferior claeve? What? Halberd with literally second highest cleave in game, have inferior cleave?
Its better at horde than exe and better at mixed hordes, have good elite damage (2 overheads on push)
This is false. For example Exe Sword has more damage both vs hordes and armors. The real problem are the unused weapons… so they should start buffing them, and only later see if Spear needs a nerf or not.
We already argued about this. As objective facts say, Exe isn’t outclassed by Spear. Halberd needs a little buff but it has its niche too.
But I don’t want repeat myself again… so I will say only “I don’t agree with you”.
Exe is not comparable to spear in terms of crowd control while being very similar in the amount of dmg that they dish out + spear has built in BCR and more stamina. Exe is also slower and does not deal with mixed hordes well.
Everything works in Legend, but weapons really begin to show their worth in higher tier like Cataclysm+, especially C3O. Exe is good, but does not deal with hordes well, considering how saturated the hordes are with elites and shields. Spear is perfectly fine with it since it’s not focused on cleaving, but rather stabbing with shoves and swipes mixed in as well for crowd control, something that exe doesn’t have. Not to mention that all the high tier players use spear pretty much exclusively as well.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you that plenty of other weapons need to be buffed, but it should be done so accordingly, and not to the same levels as spear is right now.
On a light attack? It´s good on it´s first light but it´s far from the second best.
Cleave is the amount of targets hit and damaged+the amount of target staggered, and in this case the total of the halberd is 14 but it has the linesman modifier which makes it more effective against infantry by 40%.
Cleave is the amount of targets hit per attack, either by damage or stagger and the halberd has about 7.5 on both those but it has the linesman modifier boosting it up to 10 against infrantry and berserkers.
So 10 targets per swing with a mass of 1.
Executioner has the same base cleave but it has the tank modifier, it´s essentially the same but less effective against normal enemies but works against everything except bosses and super armor.
There is also less delay between attack as you dont have to constantly block-cancel to reset your attack chain so more damage comes out which makes it objectively better against mixed hordes while halberd is better against pure infantry
I also realized halberd has -5% dodge distance but 1 more dodge.
However if talking cleave then weapons that are better than the halberd at cleave then they are: hammers, 2handed swords aside from the Executioner sword, spear, spear and shield, dual swords, Flame sword, warpick and Kruber´s mace.
Several more if we are just talking equals, executioner is just 1 or 2 targets behind but with more hits per second if just swinging.
Because Spear is a jack of all trades, while Exe is more specialized. It depends on your style and on your team. If your team needs an elites killer or a pure dps against hordes (for example because there is already a Shield to stagger), Exe is better. And obviously I’m talking about highest difficulties.
So… what does it mean? That Spear is the only good weapon? Then another reason that suggest we must start to buff weapons.
Do you really need to be this obtuse? I’ve said everything that needs to be said on the matter, but at this point it feels like you don’t even read what I say. If you don’t think the spear is that good then fine, but don’t ignore or twist my statements like that.
Don’t get so salty, friend. Everyone has his opinion (even if that Exe has more damage vs hordes and amors is a fact, exactly as there are tons of unused weapons).
Hmm I’m pretty sure first light had around 10 cleave value and linesman maybe it was changed on wom (like all single hit attacks) or I’m remembering it wrongly.
I will check it more, didn’t played kruber in long time
About atk spd, you can have similar if not even slighty faster atk with halberd block canceling than spaming with exec, its way harder but doable. Block canceling is actually better for hordes because you are not slowed so much when attacking . All halberds atacks have AP exec have only on heavies.
Its stills nothing compared to how spear just outperform them in term of dealing with hordes, its have speed boost with each attack amazing reach and absurd CC
Spear is way too good. It literally has no downsides, which makes it unrewarding to play as it doesn’t have a niche outside of “good at everything”. Even the Axe/Falchion, arguably the most OP weapon in the game, has some weakness that need to be taken into account.
I propose that the spear gets significantly less cleave on its sweeping attacks.
And if they instead start buffing things to always be on par with the current “best weapon” we will end up with everyone having nuclear bombs attached to the end of a lightsaber making Legend and Cata feel like Recruit.
If one weapon is way ahead of the rest, nerf it.
If one weapon is way behind the rest, buff it.
Just comparing damage stats and such doesn’t explain completely why Spear is better than, for example, Halberd. The reason Spear is so good is because it has:
Fine mobility.
The ability to clear space (practically even better than a 2H Hammer and on the level of shields!) through its powerful push, pushattack, & sweeps that cannot be stopped by anything. Armor mixed in a horde? No problem!
Safety because of the above, its reach, and block cost reduction + huge block angle.
Even though its attacks aren’t that exceptional in damage / damage vs. armor, they get real nice headshot multipliers and its most powerful power attack stab is easily accessible and can be aimed at heads pretty well.
Because of all this together the Spear is overpowered. Even though none of its individual strong points are overpowered by themselves, and some weapons can even do specific aspects better, the Spear has no area in which it is weak. It can do anything well, really.
How you’d want to balance this weapon, then depends on what vision FS has for it. Is it meant for crowd control? Single target damage? Depending on that some of its aspects need a slight nerf.
Personally I take a lot of pleasure in jabbing stuff in the face with it, so I’d like it to still be good at that. I guess I’d propose a nerf to its push strenght, block cost reduction, and to the cleave power of its sweeps. I feel that would bring it in line with Kruber’s other weapon options. And since Krub has already got some great crowd control options, I feel its “stab stuff in the face” aspect covers the least overlapping niche.
