[Rework] Footknight, like an AVALANCHE! Is this really so?

[souI23]

If someone asked to us “What are the pure tanks?” I guess the majority would answer “Footknight and Iron Breaker”… sure, there are Unchained and Zealot too, but they are a kind of hybrid.

Despite IB and FK are both pure tank, I feel they have (or better, they should have) a unique style:

• Iron Breaker, the tower: a career capable to keep his position, make a safe zone and let his mates to do their job in complete safety. He can fulfill this niche thanks high stamina regen (stagger and space), Gromril Armour (highest toughness), Gromril Curse (immunity from disablers) and his ult (a literally game saving).

• Footknight, the avalanche: a career capable to bring help where it needs.… but is this really so?

What are FK’s peculiarities? Those unique abilities that should let him to fulfill his duties.

• Valiant Charge: FK’s ult can give to him some mobility, BUT:

  • it’s enugh an armored enemy to stop the charge;
  • a little obstacle on the road can stop him as well;
  • if you don’t use the specific talent, you can be hit during the charge;
  • it’s very bugged. A charge is capable to knock down a CW… but the majority of the times the charge makes them barely tremble;

• Staggering Force (+35% stagger): it’s a talent that would greatly help FK’s niche, BUT:

  • it’s almost useless. I tested it: the ONLY bonus it gives, it’s the ability to stagger Monks out of their combo (using a shield). Against the other enemies, there isn’t any difference;

• Power increased/attack speed talents: these ones are just nonsense… why should I make FK a weaker Mercenary?

• Counter-punch: it gave to FK a better mobility into hordes, BUT:

  • it has been nerfed into the ground;

• Aura: auras in general aren’t worth… they are to small and Vermintide doesn’t let you to stay always stick to your mates. It’s not the right way to play the game.

------------------------------------------------------------- What would I do?------------------------------------------------------------------

• Valiant Charge should “go through” armored enemies (and stagger them) like it does against not-armored enemies OR at the impact with the first armored enemy it should create a larger AoF of stagger (like it does but larger);

• Valiant Charge should give invulnerability regardless the specific talent… I mean, IB has MANY seconds of invulnerability; I know you can block while you charge… but without the invulnerability talent sometime the ult feels too risky (while a tank’s ult should the safest ult);

• Staggering Force (+ shield): it should help more against Chaos Warriors:
  I tested it. Using or NOT using that talent you can stagger a CW except during these three animation:

  1. Heavy overhead attack: the classic overhead attack we know;
  2. Light overhead attack: honestly I don’t know if it’s another attack or if it’s the same one with a slightly different animation… but this one seems a little bit faster, “less charged”;
  3. Diagonal attack: a diagol swing from the below.

  Staggering Force should let FK to stagger more consistently CWs… for example out of the attack number 2 and 3.

• Counter-punch should be brought back to 2 seconds;

• Auras should be larger (but this is valid for every careers);

I brought some personal ideas… I don’t demand they all have to be added, we could start from only few of them.
Moreover, as written, I would like to replace Power increased/attack speed talents… but I prefer to proceed little step by step.
Thanks for reading.

[Frostysir]

I agree that FK seems kinda lackluster relative to ironbreaker and could use some help having seen both in action.

That said i am not clear on what kind of help would be the best so i will just leave this with an upvote to “bump” it^^

[Kitten]

FK is one of the most interesting Careers in the game, and can be made useful in a variety of different ways. His offensive capabilities are the reason he’s better than IB as a Frontline.

Valiant Charge:

@souI23

• it’s enugh an armored enemy to stop the charge;
• a little obstacle on the road can stop him as well;
• if you don’t use the specific talent, you can be hit during the charge;
• it’s very bugged. A charge is capable to knock down a CW… but the majority of the times the charge makes them barely tremble;

He’s supposed to hold a Frontline and prevent the team being overwhelmed by high density/Bosses. The Ult stopping at the first Elite is an indication of this, because it literally draws a line at the Elite where everything is stopped.

It also fits with his aesthetic of being a fully armoured knight, who wouldn’t easily pass through other armoured enemies, nor would he have such good mobility. The mobility in his Charge, in my mind, is to be an initial charge, or a shoulder barge to make space during a fight. It would be strange if he had really high mobility with his tankiness.

If he went through them, it would just be HM#2.

Being hit during the Charge and terrain stopping it are both things all mobility Ults have an issue with, and are the only decent criticisms of his Ultimate imo.

Trample is also one of the best mobility Ult Talents in the game, and can even replace having a Boss killer on your team at all.

@souI23

Staggering Force (+35% stagger): it’s a talent that would greatly help FK’s niche, BUT :

• it’s almost useless. I tested it: the ONLY bonus it gives, it’s the ability to stagger Monks out of their combo (using a shield). Against the other enemies, there isn’t any difference;

I disagree with your evaluation of this Talent, it can be more than useful in builds which have high Cleave and low Stagger, or to avoid having to build Power VS %, so you can still Stagger anyway. It can also be used without the Opportunist Talent on your Melee Weapon, so you can take SS instead.

@souI23

Power increased/attack speed talents : these ones are just nonsense … why should I make FK a weaker Mercenary?

I don’t understand this criticism. He’s not supposed to be a full DPS, but is supposed to offer more DPS than IB, as he’s not as tanky as IB, and he’s also supposed to be more useful in Melee than Huntsman.

These Talents integrating pushes into the Buff is a more than suitable way of making this work. He’s doing his role as a Frontline, CCing, and also able to deal decent amounts of damage.

@souI23

Counter-punch : it gave to FK a better mobility into hordes, BUT :

• it has been nerfed into the ground;

It still works completely fine, and can still make you near invincible, unless there’s a Boss on you. Being able to push while out of Stamina is one of the best Talent choices in this game.

@souI23

Aura : auras in general aren’t worth… they are to small and Vermintide doesn’t let you to stay always stick to your mates. It’s not the right way to play the game.

This is also completely incorrect. First of all his Damage Reduction and Block Cost Reduction is incredibly useful, and secondly, FK specifically has the best mechanics for playing close to your team. If you’re playing away from your team as FK with a Shield Weapon, why are you even playing him?

FK with Bulwark, and a Melee DPS running Mainstay is one of the best, and safest, ways to play and have a high success rate. You basically make the DPS invicible because everything around you is Staggered, and then capable of dealing huge amounts of damage because of that Stagger, all while also having the space to clear Specials and Elites where needed.

Playing Cata, our groups success rate is built on the fact that we know how to group and how to stop enemies pushing around the sides, usually using terrain and walls to limit angles of attack. Playing with people who don’t know this usually ends up with a Battle Wizard 40ft away from the team dying alone and then leaving the game.

That playstyle can have your team complete maps while barely taking any damage at all, and having an abundance of healing, because it’s hardly ever used.

And also taking his 10% Power Increase is a great way to get Ranged damage, as well as avoiding loss of Cleave and Damage on certain enemies with certain builds. This is either a selfish Talent, or a clever one, depending on what your team’s Weapon compisition is.

Conclusion:
I’m confused at the fact that you’re once again asking for buffs to a Career that doesn’t need them, and has more choice for build variability, and for filling interesting hybrid roles than nearly all of the other Careers.

His Talents are all very interesting and can be made useful in lots of different ways.

I’ve been playing him a lot recently, and when your teammates actually acknowledge your presence, the games are 10x smoother, and the amount of damage you give to your team via Stagger is insane.

[dannylew8299]

I think there’s a middle ground between Soul’s desire for a rework and Kitten’s rebuttal

Definitely some talents I would prefer to be beefier. Also, don’t remember who said this first, but all dashes, especially FK’s, should automatically put them in a dodged state during the whole charge so they stop getting stomped during an ult.

[souI23]

@Kitten

He’s supposed to hold a Frontline and prevent the team being overwhelmed by high density/Bosses. The Ult stopping at the first Elite is an indication of this, because it literally draws a line at the Elite where everything is stopped.

It also fits with his aesthetic of being a fully armoured knight, who wouldn’t easily pass through other armoured enemies, nor would he have such good mobility. The mobility in his Charge, in my mind, is to be an initial charge, or a shoulder barge to make space during a fight. It would be strange if he had really high mobility with his tankiness.

If he went through them, it would just be HM#2.

Being hit during the Charge and terrain stopping it are both things all mobility Ults have an issue with, and are the only decent criticisms of his Ultimate imo.

Trample is also one of the best mobility Ult Talents in the game, and can even replace having a Boss killer on your team at all.

For this reason I wrote:

OR at the impact with the first armored enemy it should create a larger AoF of stagger (like it does but larger);

I don’t want make FK a second HM.

The problem is that some words seem come from a player expert only “on paper”, wich hasn’t played that career enough.

When an horde with elites comes, these elites can keep some distance between them… and this nullifies FK’s ult. There are many situations where you have to keep the frontline, where you charge an “elites horde”, but you can stagger only the first elite.
Patrols are another example.

@Kitten

I disagree with your evaluation of this Talent, it can be more than useful in builds which have high Cleave and low Stagger, or to avoid having to build Power VS %, so you can still Stagger anyway. It can also be used without the Opportunist Talent on your Melee Weapon, so you can take SS instead.

High cleave and LOW STAGGER? On a tank? This could be true with some weird and super-niche builds (like the “weaker-Merc” one)… but, when you play FK as he’s meant, that talent is useless.
Moreover, these high cleave - low stagger weapons, also with that +35%, can’t work like a real staggering weapon.

Anyway, apart this, I can’t understand because Staggering Force can’t be useful also with a weapon already meant to stagger.

@Kitten

I don’t understand this criticism. He’s not supposed to be a full DPS, but is supposed to offer more DPS than IB, as he’s not as tanky as IB, and he’s also supposed to be more useful in Melee than Huntsman.

These Talents integrating pushes into the Buff is a more than suitable way of making this work. He’s doing his role as a Frontline, CCing, and also able to deal decent amounts of damage.

Because hybrid FK is a weaker Merc in every aspect. Merc has more damage and Merc has more defense too.

Make a build that is only the weaker copy of another one, it can’t be called “add variety”.

If we remove those talents, we can replace them with other ones and we can really improve the variety.

@Kitten

It still works completely fine

Here we simply disagree… not much to say.

@Kitten

This is also completely incorrect. First of all his Damage Reduction and Block Cost Reduction is incredibly useful, and secondly, FK specifically has the best mechanics for playing close to your team. If you’re playing away from your team as FK with a Shield Weapon, why are you even playing him?

The problem isn’t aura’s bonus, but its dimension.
If you say that you can play this game like a mmorpg, everyone behind the tanks… well, we played different games.

The other things you said, like this, for example:

@Kitten

I’m confused at the fact that you’re once again asking for buffs to a Career that doesn’t need them

honestly they aren’t worth my time.

@Frostysir

I agree that FK seems kinda lackluster relative to ironbreaker and could use some help having seem both in action.

That said i am not clear on what kind of help would be the best so i will just leave this with an upvote to “bump” it^^

Thanks!

@dannylew8299

Definitely some talents I would prefer to be beefier. Also, don’t remember who said this first, but all dashes, especially FK’s, should automatically put them in a dodged state during the whole charge so they stop getting stomped during an ult.

Just this. Totally agree.

[Kitten]

@souI23

The problem is that some words seem come from a player expert only “on paper”, wich hasn’t played that career enough.

Based on what?

You’re the one asking for buffs to something that works more than fine, and that’s even calling some of his best mechanics bad.

He also has a good representation in the top 100 4-man Weave ladder.

@souI23

When an horde with elites comes, these elites can keep some distance between them… and this nullifies FK’s ult. There are many situations where you have to keep the frontline, where you charge an “elites horde”, but you can stagger only the first elite.
Patrols are another example.

Then you wait for them to stack up, or group them yourself by pushing in with your 1 extra Stamina shield and possible 80% Block Cost Reduction.

The only criticisms of his Ult are that terrain stops it and that you get hit during it. Which apply to every mobility Ult.

@souI23

High cleave and LOW STAGGER? On a tank? This could be true with some weird and super-niche builds (like the “weaker-Merc” one)… but, when you play FK as he’s meant, that talent is useless.
Moreover, these high cleave - low stagger weapons, also with that +35%, can’t work like a real staggering weapon.

Anyway, apart this, I can’t understand because Staggering Force can’t be useful also with a weapon already meant to stagger.

1H Sword, Shield+Sword Light Attacks. Mace and Sword. Making Weapons with high Cleave, but low Stagger deal more Stagger is literally the point of this Talent.

@souI23

Because hybrid FK is a weaker Merc in every aspect. Merc has more damage and Merc has more defense too.

Make a build that is only the weaker copy of another one, it can’t be called “add variety”.

Incorrect, Merc does not have more defence.

• Extra Stamina Shield
• 180 hp
• 10% damage reduction
• 30 second Ult Cooldown, which is an AoE Stun, and can be a 3 second invicibility
• either That’s Bloody Teamwork (5% DMGR per nearby ally) or Counter-Punch (blocking an attack removes push cost for 1 second)
• either Rock of The Reikland (20% Block Cost Reduction) or Defensive Formation ( 5% DMGR on Protective Presence

Other than a ridiculous amount of spam stagger, and a good amount of damage, I’m not sure what else you could want from FK.

He’s a spam Stagger Frontline, he can use repeater Handgun for Specials, and if you really need Boss damage, he can take Trample.

He deals more Stagger and CC than Merc, which is his point. While still managing to put out decent DPS if played with DPS Weapons.

@souI23

The problem isn’t aura’s bonus, but its dimension.
If you say that you can play this game like a mmorpg, everyone behind the tanks… well, we played different games.

If this isn’t your playstyle, then FK isn’t even worth using for you. What’s the point in standing alone Staggering enemies with noone to help?

Shield Weapons are completely useless if someone isn’t using them. you may as well switch to something with more damage. You’ll basically end up with your back to a wall spam Staggering, waiting for your team who are all off solo to finish killing everything and then come and help you because your killing power is too low.

The aura buffs of every Career are supposed to encourage standing nearer together, which is what our group tends to do and benefits me in bot duos, which is the main way I play this game. Even in bot duos, we don’t take as much damage as the solo players in QP who die 100 yards from us and then leave.

@souI23

honestly they aren’t worth my time.

But you have though. You opened 2-3 threads asking for bodyshot breakpoints on Huntsman’s Longbow. And now you’re asking for buffs to a Career that only has small issues (clunkiness with Ult and It’s Hero Time), and has a high representation in the top 100 4-man Weave groups.

[Perteks]

Honestly that topic is not worth even discussion. Class that is well made and distinguished don’t need any mayor changes

[souI23]

@Kitten

Then you wait for them to stack up, or group them yourself by pushing in with your 1 extra Stamina shield and possible 80% Block Cost Reduction.

The only criticisms of his Ult are that terrain stops it and that you get hit during it. Which apply to every mobility Ult.

Based on what?

Based on these speeches.

Wait for stacks?! People die! I must stagger elites as fast as possible. You can’t wait for stacks every time… moreover sometimes they just “don’t stack”, regardless how much time I wait.

And if there is a downed player and I can’t reach him for one only armored enemy on the road?

@Kitten

1H Sword, Shield+Sword Light Attacks. Mace and Sword. Making Weapons with high Cleave, but low Stagger deal more Stagger is literally the point of this Talent.

1H Sword FK… this is the perfect example of super-niche build, probably viable but totally overshadowed.
Stagger Force doesn’t need a buff because it (maybe) works with 1H Sword … then, if it’s useless with FK’s main weapons, “patience”, I guess.
About Shields, as said, their bash and push can already stagger everything. That talent doesn’t matter. And if I use a shield I don’t use its light attacks to stagger.

@Kitten

Incorrect, Merc does not have more defence.

• Extra Stamina Shield
• 180 hp
• 10% damage reduction
• 30 second Ult Cooldown, which is an AoE Stun, and can be a 3 second invicibility
• either That’s Bloody Teamwork (5% DMGR per nearby ally) or Counter-Punch (blocking an attack removes push cost for 1 second)
• either Rock of The Reikland (20% Block Cost Reduction) or Defensive Formation ( 5% DMGR on Protective Presence

Other than a ridiculous amount of spam stagger, and a good amount of damage, I’m not sure what else you could want from FK.

He’s a spam Stagger Frontline, he can use repeater Handgun for Specials, and if you really need Boss damage, he can take Trample.

He deals more Stagger and CC than Merc, which is his point. While still managing to put out decent DPS if played with DPS Weapons.

Based on what?

This is another example

180hp and 10% damage reduction should give more survivability than 40% damage reduction on ult for the entire team and free tHP (for the entire team as well)!?

But even if this was true (and it’s not) or if we want to consider that FK can spam his ult more often (but remember: Merc’s ult staggers as well)… it’s still not worth considering how much more damage Merc can do.
And, since Merc can stack more power, this means more stagger too.

Merc has Rep Gun too.

Moreover remember more power you have, more you can stagger… FK can spam his ult more often, as written (and I repeat that Merc’s ult stagger too), but with the weapon

either Rock of The Reikland (20% Block Cost Reduction) or Defensive Formation ( 5% DMGR on Protective Presence

But you must give up to Taal’s Champion.

@Kitten

If this isn’t your playstyle, then FK isn’t even worth using for you. What’s the point in standing alone Staggering enemies with noone to help?

Shield Weapons are completely useless if someone isn’t using them. you may as well switch to something with more damage. You’ll basically end up with your back to a wall spam Staggering, waiting for your team who are all off solo to finish killing everything and then come and help you because your killing power is too low.

The aura buffs of every Career are supposed to encourage standing nearer together, which is what our group tends to do and benefits me in bot duos, which is the main way I play this game. Even in bot duos, we don’t take as much damage as the solo players in QP who die 100 yards from us and then leave.

Here I have nothing to add. I just think you are wrong: different opinions, I guess… but I see there are tons of situations that don’t let you to stick with your team. And don’t get me wrong… I’m not saying to play at the opposite sides of the map. Simple aura’s AoE is really really really small.

@Kitten

But you have though. You opened 2-3 threads asking for bodyshot breakpoints on Huntsman’s Longbow. And now you’re asking for buffs to a Career that only has small issues (clunkiness with Ult and It’s Hero Time), and has a high representation in the top 100 4-man Weave groups.

Instead of checking my threads, I suggest you to play Huntsman and FK more… because it really seems that your experience is only on paper

@Perteks

Honestly that topic is not worth even discussion. Class that is well made and distinguished don’t need any mayor changes

Perteks! I missed you!

*you and your motivated and polite comments

[Kitten]

@souI23

Instead of checking my threads, I suggest you to play Huntsman and FK more… because it really seems that your experience is only on paper

Trying to discredit me and ignoring the point I made about Weave 4-man representation in the top 100 is quite telling. There you have the Career you’re saying needs buffs performing at the highest ‘official’ difficulty the game has to offer, and with a higher representation than other Careers.

I’ve played both more than enough to know that you can score headshots easily as Huntsman, and that FK can easily FL and DPS/FL hybrid while offering Special Killing and Boss killing when needed too.

I think Perteks said it best.

[CopperBack1]

He could use some slight tweaks, but generally a well balanced class, my favorite Kruber.

-Immunity during dash recommended like for other dashes due to enemy crazy accurate swings during and directly after though this also effect stealths during and upon breakage.

-maybe new passive for kit

[souI23]

What!? I wasn’t trying to discredit you… I just answered with a joke to your joke. You wrote a “salty” joke for first.

@Kitten

I’m confused at the fact that you’re once again asking for buffs to a Career that doesn’t need them

More and more times you accused me of spam without evidence. As you did about Huntsman’ threads. As I already said, I write another thread “on the same argument” ONLY when there is an update that changes the meta/gameplay or the interested career.

Feedback must remain updated… or they are useless.

p.s that “doesn’t need a buff” is just your opinion. As you can see there are other players that agree with me.

I don’t need to discredit you, since I answered to every single point. With motivated and civil words.

You right, there is an exception, I missed “weaves” point… sorry, I just forgot it. But I can asnwer now.
I don’t know if FK is one of the most used careers during weaves (I limited myself to reaching weave 120… I don’t lose my time with leaderboard) BUT, even if it’s true, this doesn’t mean that he can’t have some aspects that need a rework/balance. Handmaiden can be a simple example. She’s a super-used career (during weaves), but there are many players that ask a buff for her.

In facr I never said that FK is trash… but he has some things that, imho, could work better.

We already talked about Huntsman (and anyway I haven’t never said that HS can’t score headshots… don’t distort my words… Huntsman’s problems are quite different) as I already wrote because an aggressive FK can work but he remains a weaker Merc.

But obvly I don’t want to convince you… free to keep your opinions.

@CopperBack1

He could use some slight tweaks, but generally a well balanced class, my favorite Kruber.

-Immunity during dash recommended like for other dashes due to enemy crazy accurate swings during and directly after though this also effect stealths during and upon breakage.

-maybe new passive for kit

You get the point, thanks. I agree.

In fact I never said that FK is trash… but some aspects, like the ult as you said, could work better.

[BongoSkaggs]

@Kitten

Incorrect, Merc does not have more defence.

Merc does outperform FK in team defense though, at the very least in ease of use. That’s always been FK’s main problem. Hitting F every minute or less to Morale Boost is so much simpler for a team to capitalize on than stagger spam or hugging the FKs ass for some DR.

Imo, the best way to change that is to increase aura size. Protective Presence, Renewal, & Call Out Weakness have always been hampered in regards to radius. Meanwhile similar auras-like effects such as Mercs Strike Together or WHCs Wild Fervour have absolutely massive, damn near map wide, ranges. Why should this discrepancy exist?

Even beyond tuning up his aura range, FK has a smattering of stupid or boring talents that could be made so much more interesting. Taal’s Champion is overcosted, plain and simple. It’s Hero Time is lame and barely helps do the thing it should do. That’s Bloody Teamwork also has range issues and is weirdly selfish for a talent that relies on teammates. Defensive Formation can barely compare to Rock of the Reikland. And Trample is just laughable compared to its sister damage increasing effects.

[command_codes]

No. Right now the Knight is an excellent position

With Crowd Clearer, Bull of Ostland, +10% attack speed from gear and stamina regen, he can dive into hordes and pummel them endlessly with the 2Hand Hammer

Also get some of that magic fast attack Halberd of the early days

[Kitten]

@BongoSkaggs

Merc does outperform FK in team defense though

Maybe, if you’re playing low THP generating Careers.

You can play FK similar to how you play Slayer (CDR build), as a frontline, but with less Ults- 30 seconds, and reduced by melee is fine though. Slayer also doesn’t knock over Chaos Warriors while playing his similar build though.

I also feel like the focus on Merc’s one Ult doesn’t take into account the sheer amount of Stagger you can do as FK. Which again, is why I say, if you’re not playing as a group, why play him?

Just last night I was able to duo with a BH, from India on my host EU, and even while lagging out of his mind, he was able to survive and barely take damage because I covered him properly, and he moved with me properly.

The damage you stop people taking, if you don’t run off alone, can more than offer enough defensive team support, and is his main point. And also make it safer to farm THP for Weapons with less Stagger/Cleave.

@BongoSkaggs

Why should this discrepancy exist?

Yeah, I don’t like it either, but instead of asking for buffs to one of the better Careers in the game, I’d rather see their buffs range’s reduced.

@BongoSkaggs

Taal’s Champion is overcosted, plain and simple.

I disagree. I think this tradeoff is fair because of his role. It’s also pure Power%, which means you can potentially get 32% pure Power%, which is 32% Power VS any enemy type in the game.

That’s 22% without Staggering, so 22%, which even Merc doesn’t get if he hasn’t hit three enemies. Meaning he has better ranged damage in general too.

This leaves you capable of taking any stats you feel like on Weapons/Charm, and removes some of the build bottle necks.

This is also why Handmaiden’s is removed by damage.

@BongoSkaggs

It’s Hero Time is lame and barely helps do the thing it should do.

This is his only bad Talent. Everything else can be made useful, and he has some of the most interesting build potential of any Career in the game. If this Talent goes, he’ll have the best Talents in the game imo.

@BongoSkaggs

That’s Bloody Teamwork also has range issues and is weirdly selfish for a talent that relies on teammates.

It’s indicative of his role, both the proximity to teammates and the selfishness. You’re able to take more damage while protecting teammates.

@BongoSkaggs

Defensive Formation can barely compare to Rock of the Reikland.

I disagree here. Some Careers have no Damage Reduction at all, and even though Stamina/Block Cost/Attack Speed are all amazing defensive stats, straight up Damage Reduction is necessary and can be greatly useful when stacked with others. Taking AoE damage, and against Bosses/Specials DMGR is extremely helpful, where Stamina/Block Cost isn’t always (not enough Stam Shields/BCR to stop a Boss Overhead doing much damage).

@BongoSkaggs

Trample is just laughable compared to its sister damage increasing effects.

• Valiant Charge benefits from Stagger Mechanics on those it hits (including Bosses)

• it increases damage taken by 20% for 15 seconds, and his Ult Cooldown is 30 Seconds (not including reduction from attacking

• it has 5 seconds more than Shrapnel, so you basically spend the entire match spamming Shrapnel on the larger enemies, and on Lords it means you don’t need spam Bombs. On Nurgloth this means you can have Shrap every time he ports into the middle

• it also increases Horde Clear speed as Ranged Careers benefit from it

• it can completely replace having a Boss killer on your team, and is even more insane with one

• if you rotate between Ults of Shade/BH on Chaos Warriors, they’re never a problem

• theoretically, your team could all switch to Grenadier to get more use out of Bombs if you’re running this Talent

[BongoSkaggs]

@Kitten

Maybe, if you’re playing low THP generating Careers.

Thanks for removing the qualifier from my statement and then not actually responding to my point. Which is that Merc team utility handily beats FK in usability. It barely matters how coordinated a team is for Merc, he just presses a button and everyone in a very generous radius gets to benefit from the heavy knockdown, freedom from disablers, and free thp.

Meanwhile, players have to be more up the FKs ass than Kruber’s thong to benefit from his aura. And while you may be staggering the crap out of enemies in one area, the fact of the matter is that uncoordinated teammates will scarcely find out how to benefit from that. That’s just the reality of playing the game with pugs.

@Kitten

Which again, is why I say, if you’re not playing as a group, why play him?

So if you aren’t on voice comms with your team, there’s no point in playing FK and you would be better off playing Merc? I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe we do see eye to eye on this after all. /s

[souI23]

@BongoSkaggs

Merc does outperform FK in team defense though, at the very least in ease of use. That’s always been FK’s main problem. Hitting F every minute or less to Morale Boost is so much simpler for a team to capitalize on than stagger spam or hugging the FKs ass for some DR.

Totally agree. It’s a question of numbers. “Aggressive FK” has less damage and gives less survivability than Merc. It hasn’t nothing special or unique.

@BongoSkaggs

Imo, the best way to change that is to increase aura size.

Exactly. Auras could really give a better niche to some careers… sadly they are just too small.
We have to remember that Vermintide is a FPS, not a MMMORPG where you can stick near your tank during all time.
As in every FPS there are many moments where you can’t stay too near your mates.

Anyway, as written, none demands that auras have to cover the entire map… but seriously, they really force you to almost interpenetration your mate.

And if we think about Huntsman’s aura, the situation gets even more ridicolous… since Huntsman is meant to keep the distance.

@BongoSkaggs

Even beyond tuning up his aura range, FK has a smattering of stupid or boring talents that could be made so much more interesting. Taal’s Champion is overcosted, plain and simple. It’s Hero Time is lame and barely helps do the thing it should do. That’s Bloody Teamwork also has range issues and is weirdly selfish for a talent that relies on teammates. Defensive Formation can barely compare to Rock of the Reikland. And Trample is just laughable compared to its sister damage increasing effects.

I agree.

Taal’s Champion, as written, makes FK a weaker Merc.
It’s Hero Time makes me laugh… if Fatshark wants make FK a better mates helper they should let to Valiant Charge to surpass armored enemies. And not add this situational and dull talent.
The other ones you quoted are simply overshadowed.

[Torantolis]

@BongoSkaggs

So if you aren’t on voice comms with your team, there’s no point in playing FK and you would be better off playing Merc? I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe we do see eye to eye on this after all. /s

I think you’ve both made Kitten’s point and also Kitten made yours; Mercenary is a solo-powerhouse who doesn’t need to depend on his team but doesn’t provide as much utility as Foot-Knight can when on a coordinated team. Control-heavy careers will always suffer this as their purpose, control, cannot be accompanied by solo-powerhouse-damage because they’d be exclusively better than everyone else.

@BongoSkaggs

Even beyond tuning up his aura range, FK has a smattering of stupid or boring talents that could be made so much more interesting.

I don’t know what you view as boring, but these talents allow for more flexibility and weapon kits for Foot-Knight than just about any other career. It encourages great-weapon play, dual-wield play, and shield-play. Or do you mean you want him to have “dramatic” talents, like the temp-health generation on the giant explosion from Unchained?

However, let’s try to wrap around to what was proposed… massive talent overhauls. For this, I gotta say that @Kitten, @CopperBack1, @Perteks, and @command_codes are correct… Foot-Knight doesn’t need a talent rework for many of the reasons gone over above: he is already a power-house and has variety in gameplay, therein I’d recommend that we do not look to overhaul him at the moment.

EDIT:

@BongoSkaggs

That’s Bloody Teamwork also has range issues and is weirdly selfish for a talent that relies on teammates.

This skill is mostly encouragement for the knight to stick with his team, not for the team to stick with the knight. It’s selfish because it’s providing the Foot-Knight even more reason to open himself up to get hit if it means covering the Slayer. That’s a team play talent, for sure!

[souI23]

@Torantolis

I think you’ve both made Kitten’s point and also Kitten made yours; Mercenary is a solo-powerhouse who doesn’t need to depend on his team but doesn’t provide as much utility as Foot-Knight can when on a coordinated team. Control-heavy careers will always suffer this as their purpose, control, cannot be accompanied by solo-powerhouse-damage because they’d be exclusively better than everyone else.

To be clear, I compared aggressive FK vs Merc.

If we compare pure tank FK vs Merc, they both have their advantages… none said FK is trash.
But if we compare aggressive FK vs Merc, numbers say that Merc has more damage and gives the highest survivability to his mates.

@Torantolis

I don’t know what you view as boring, but these talents allow for more flexibility and weapon kits for Foot-Knight than just about any other career.

What flexibility? That one to use some weird, super-niche and totally overshadowed builds? We have to be realistic.

Any talent that increases power or attack speed, as I wrote more times, makes FK a weaker Merc (numbers say this, not me).

30% speed when a mate is downed? When, in high contents, a downed player dies in literally one second… and, what an irony, the only thing that could really help a downed player, Valiant Charge, is heaviliy penalized. Since it’s enough one single armored enemy to stop it (and, very often, if a player dies is precisely for elites around him).

Or Staggering Force? That literally doesn’t help with the FK’s main weapons (I tested it. If you don’t believe me, test it yourself)?

About auras, if you don’t believe me, once again, watch some streamings… watch j_sat contents. The game doesn’t let you to play inside your mates… and yep, auras are so small that you must penetrate your mate to trigger them.

Or +5% damage reduction…that is, always, a weaker option than +20% block cost reduction?

Or tthe need to put one talent to have 3 seconds of invulnerability… when IB has one “free hit” every few seconds and 80% damage reduction for the entire ult?

@Torantolis

However, let’s try to wrap around to what was proposed… massive talent overhauls. For this, I gotta say that @Kitten, @CopperBack1, @Perteks, and @command_codes are correct

Honestly I don’t think it’s useful quote all these people just to make “numbers”… also because there are just as many that think that FK needs some help.

[Kitten]

@BongoSkaggs

Thanks for removing the qualifier from my statement and then not actually responding to my point. Which is that Merc team utility handily beats FK in usability.

I didn’t ignore you point, nor remove the qualifier, I acknowledged it and responded with why I think you’re wrong. You’re trying to compare a 1:30 (without attacks) Ultimate to an entire Career’s mechanics, which offer Damage Reduction over a longer Period and more Stagger than his Ultimate anyway, the only thing he doesn’t give is THP, but makes it easier for teammates to build anyway due to CC.

FK being more active in his support isn’t a problem, it’s his Career, and it works. The 30 second (less with attacks) Cooldown of his Ultimate and sheer amount of Stagger he puts out makes other Careers safer to play in general.

@BongoSkaggs

It barely matters how coordinated a team is for Merc, he just presses a button and everyone in a very generous radius gets to benefit from the heavy knockdown, freedom from disablers, and free thp.

@BongoSkaggs

you may be staggering the crap out of enemies in one area, the fact of the matter is that uncoordinated teammates will scarcely find out how to benefit from that. That’s just the reality of playing the game with pugs.

@BongoSkaggs

So if you aren’t on voice comms with your team, there’s no point in playing FK and you would be better off playing Merc? I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe we do see eye to eye on this after all. /s

Your argument here is basically that Merc’s Ult makes up for your team playing badly or not playing closely enough to be supported by each other. I agree with that, but I don’t see how that in any way means FK’s mechanics or playstyle needs a rework.

QP isn’t and shouldn’t be the basis on which the game is balanced. It should always be balanced around at least having 2-4 coordinated people.

Is your point here that you want FK to be more braindead and as easy as pressing one button?

I also refer you all back to the point I made earlier:

@Kitten

you’re asking for buffs to a Career that only has small issues (clunkiness with Ult and It’s Hero Time), and has a high representation in the top 100 4-man Weave groups.

[BongoSkaggs]

@Kitten

QP isn’t and shouldn’t be the basis on which the game is balanced.

The game shouldn’t be balanced around the type of game that 95% of players play? Pull the other one.