State of Knight

And Shield + Mace & Sword.

At max stagger power afaik you can only stagger CWs out of their overhead with a bash on Cataclysm. That’s with Staggering Force, Opportunist, Enhanced Power, Taal’s Champion, 20% vs Chaos, 10% vs Armour.
Funnily the War Pick can also do this with it’s full charge heavy. It only requires 20% vs Chaos and Opportunist.

Yeah this, thank you. FK can hit meaty stagger breakpoints nobody else can. He just has to commit really hard to hit them, which sucks a lot of flexibility out of builds. I don’t really know how you fix this though, since being able to stagger almost anything out of any animation is pretty cheese, but if your team has no idea how to capitalise you’re left feeling real useless as you can barely dispatch things at any pace yourself.

I’d personally be happy just to see some QoL improvements especially regarding his Ult, then see how he feels from there. I kinda wish staggering force was a passive so you had more build flexibility, but the more I think about it the more I feel like that could end up being pretty broken.

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You might be correct, I think. I hardly ever spec for that specific breakpoint myself, only did it once to test it.

I think the entire point is that FK can hit those stagger breakpoints very easily. Just Opportunist & Staggering Force, and you can stagger everything that isn’t a Chaos Warrior overhead or a Monster with a shield. Other careers need Opportunist and 27% Power vs. to do such things. And this goed for other weapons as well. FK can hit stagger breakpoints while still having flexibility, while other careers need to give up a lot of flexibility to do so. And FK has his Ult as well.

FK should never try to be a DPS career, he’ll only disappoint. FK isn’t always bad, but he is just only good in a very specific niche. That can also be a valid point of critisism, though.

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Why are we comparing an invis cheese career and dps careers to a support? Ofcourse slayer or bw or whc will do more damage and dominate, merc just has insane support talents which makes him almost always a must pick, the insane boost he gives to the team can not be underestimated. Careers can get enabled with just a merc in your team and could spam or be more aggressive etc etc, idk how people can’t see that.

I agree with you that fk needs some talent tweaks. I don’t agree that u think staggering force is useless as its not, as tdman said. The push after you ult is annoying and should of been fixed like a long time ago.

I also didn’t say ‘just nerf merc’ i am looking at both careers. I’m also not suggesting huge nerfs to merc, just without his 40 dmg red he would still be a very very strong career, or make him not give temp hp for 40 dmg red instead.

Haha you’re right, kruber gets negelected. Sadly it’s not the only career :frowning:

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For this reason I wrote more times “read the linked thread”, because I can’t repeat the same things every time… I know you can stagger Monks out of their combo, but imho its too little as niche (even because Monks aren’t so common as enemies and they remain staggered for a very, very short time).

General FK’s thread

Staggering Force’s thread

Look, you made a claim (“stagger talent is useless on shield”), I just pointed out that wasn’t true. You not considering stagggering Plaguemonks as being useful, doesn’t mean anything to the factuality of such a claim. (No matter what you said in whatever other threads.)

And I also completely disagree with your assessment that pushing a Plaguemonk out of his combo is useless because it only staggers him shortly. It breaks his very dangerous attack and staggers him long enough to get a push-attack in, which benefits from Mainstay, and the push is free anyways because of Counter-Punch. Normally Plaguemonks are so dangerous because they force you to hold cover and take away your ability to properly react to other threaths around you as well. But with a shield push you can now just shove the bastards aside to do (and let your teammates do) what needs to be done. Being able to do this - pretty much no matter the enemy composition in front of you - completely takes the stinger out of one of the most dangerous enemies in the game (especially when it comes with friends). Even if this comes up only once per map it can still mean the difference between a win and a wipe. And you don’t need to invest in any other Power talents or traits to also pull this off against every other attack in the game that’s not a Chaos Warrior overhead or Monster as well. So it’s not like you took the talent for a niche situation that only comes up rarely and is wasted the rest of the time. It’s still good against every other dangerous enemy as well.

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But I made another claim too: “read the linked thread”.

Anyway we just have different opinions… Because ok, stagger monks is useful (even if sometimes I got hit between a push and the following bash*), but it can’t be enough. I would like to see more synergies Staggering Force/shields.

*Sure, if you spam push they can’t attack you… But you must have Counter Punch active… This isn’t always possible.

On this note, with just staggering force + opportunist on SnS you stagger so hard you can easily solo bully an entire SV patrol right off a cliff if the opportunity presents :rofl: That’s a huge amount of control over a very common enemy. So yeah, you get a lot more out of it than just staggering plague monks.

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It’s gonna be a rare situation if nothing tries to hit you. Especially in TmanDW’s example with a pack of monks. They love flailing their arms around but don’t do too much stamina damage.

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I like the idea to make Staggering Force as passive.

I agree… In these days I have played Cata Weekly Event (it has the modifiers: more elites, double hp/damage elites and “explosive players”) with WHC.

It’s simply impressive how many Stormvermins (with double hp) you can kill during those 6 seconds of ult… but, even without ult, the crit rate is very high. It seems you are fighting Recruit SVs since you can oneshot them.

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Nothing is faster than an insta kill. No career should be balanced around the absurd level of power WHC has.

Killing Shot doesn’t work on high level Chamon Weaves last I checked for some reason sadly (unless they fixed it since I made that post). So that’s one situation in which it doesn’t shine but that’s only one weave type and not enough people play Weaves for it to matter.

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Sorry if I intrude on the speech, but we can’t talk about to balance or not a career around WHC, like he was an exception… simply because there are tons of careers that “shine” exactly like WHC.
Zealot, Merc, Shade, Bounty Hunter, Battle Wizard… they all have a very good output damage, with different advantages/disadvantages each other.

The Unending Hunt already challenges Fervency. The added survivability and crit boost uptime more than balances out the added killing power, especially in a world of A&F with its added 20% crit on heavy linesman push attacks.
BWs armor handling depends on her staff and weapon. If you gear her towards “Infantry and Monster” thats your doing. I personally just run Staggerandburntheworldflag staff.
Comparing Shade to WHC is about as genius as comparing Knight to Zealot. Calling a career with 20% constant DR squishy is also more than a stretch.

If you wanna share your educated on plenty of experience based thoughts with others, open a new discussion. Iam sure people would love to read about them. Most of them are quite worth a smile.

It is not that I disagree with you. And I also think that part why WHC overperforms is due to Saltzpyre having (together with Kerillian) the most overperforming weapons of all heroes (mainly because attack speed is slightly broken). But as you correctly said

We should remember that the thread is about Footknight. So maybe to all, we either return to that topic or rename the thread.

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To be brief, without enter too much into the off topic, I meant that WHC has pro and cons when compared with the other careers I quoted… Zealot is tougher and the damage is “less explosive but more consistent/safe”; Shade has much much much more bosses damage (sure… WHC has a good bosses damage too… but try, for example, 200% twitch: play or not Shade changes the entire run), Merc helps more your mates (but the damage is lower than WHC, Zealot, Shade… moreover Merc is not tough like Zealot… for this reason he’s not over power).

I see all of them well balanced… they cover the same category (melee dps), but everyone fulfills a unique “micro-niche”.

Anyway yep, sorry for the off topic guys, this is just to explain my idea.

The problem is that, when a pack of monks comes, you can’t know who they will aim… you can’t wait for the possibility that they attack you (in order to trigger Counter Punch), they could kill your mates… you can chain the push-bash combo, with the risk that someone gets hit (because the combo is slow and monks remain staggered for a little moment)… you can spam push, it’s more effective, but you can finish the stamina.
Then I’m not saying that the ability to stagger monks is useless… but if we add that Staggering Force is useful only vs these monks and it’s not even 100% safe… to add few new synergies between that talent and shields would not be a so bad thing.

The knack in fighting berserkers is in keeping your head cool. They are such dangerous enemies just because they need a little different strategy than most other enemies, because in melee in this game you usually need to be proactive, while vs. berserkers you need to be a little more reactive. They usually do so much damage because you try to get a cheeky hit in, but they are not impressed by that or faster than most other enemies. If you are fighting nothing but berserkers in melee, the best strategy for any character is basically just to block and wait patiently for them to gas out (or for your mates to kill them). Because usually in this game you need to go on the counter offensive fast, and most people have that learned from experience alrrady, they try to go on the counter offensive too fast vs. berserkers, which doesn’t work and you take hits. While if you fight berserkers in a mixed horde or something, the defensive stance makes you more vulnerable to other enemies that require a more proactive approach however, which makes berserkers even more dangerous. (Think the end of the fist Drachenfels map: the monks + flamers in the tight staircase is horribly dangerous: it’s easy to either take hits from the monks, or get cornered and toasted by the flamers as you try to defend yourself from the monks.)

This is the reason staggering monks is such a big deal. It works no matter if they are attacking and regardless of who they attack (non attacking monks are easier to stagger, so Staggering Force is enough even without Opportunist in that situation), and regardless of whether they come with a horde or not. If you play shieldknight, you need to position in such a way when berserkers come, that you can shove them so your mates have more space or you can get an opening to shoot a special or whatever.

Nobody said it’d be easy or 100% safe, but it at least gives you a way to deal with a very dangerous situation, that you otherwise wouldn’t have. I still feel it’s not as niche as you make it out to be. Berserkers are common and dangerous enough. It’s like calling a talent that helps you with specials “too niche” because you don’t fight specials all the time, and when you do they come in a situation that makes everything more dangerous. That’s the entire point of taking the talent…

And Staggering Force also has uses outside of shields with other weapons as well, so it’s not a niche talent itself either.

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You can’t compare monks (a single enemy) and specials (an entire catogory).

I’m not saying you are wrong, I know the correct approach and I know that the capacity of staggering them it’s not to be underestimated… but since:

  • Staggering Force isn’t 100% safe (as explained to freqlectic and as you said): monks are still risky;
  • It works with one only enemy (monks):
  • FK would need some love in general;
  • More strategies between tanks and shields would be appreciated…

I don’t see particural cons about add some new syinergies between Staggering Force and shields.

This is another speech… but, just to say, the “other weapons outside shields” often prefer Crowd Clearer over Staggering Force… but, honestly, I don’t care about this. My point, as said, is another one.