So, I wanna come out firstly and state that Grail Knight is certainly not bad! But as it currently stands with him compared to especially the newer careers and with shade getting a rework that brings her up to snuff I’d really like to see grail knight get a look over. I’d really like to see what they can do with their current career-designing abilities to one of our favorite Bretonnian representatives!
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So, have you got any suggestions? Because to me, there are other careers in more need of a look over, like pyro
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It’d probably be old hat to go over all the stuff again, there are plenty of discussions but I mainly want to just bring up that I’d really like to see the career get a little look-at.
can you be more specific?
i hate grailknight as a career (gameplay wise not visually) but he’s as far as i can tell the most poular kruber class without being broken or underpowerd so i doubt that people would even want a revisit of him
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Most of the careers in the game have some dead talents or rows with no real choice. GK isn’t special there at all, but he is also very much up the higher end of general effectiveness so I’d put him extremely low on the list of Careers to get changes unless any talent buffs also come with nerfs to other aspects of his kit.
Generally though, again, he’d be pretty low on my list of classes that need another look over.
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The major issue I have with GK is his asinine Talent descriptions.
“50% of damage taken is regenerated as temp health after 5 sec.”
- Nope. Not how that works. Missing vital information.
“Changes Blessed Blade to horizontal slash that cleaves through and staggers multiple enemies.”
- Atleast the horizontal slash part is mostly accurate. Hitting a CW, or Monster first turns the “multiple enemies” part into a lie.
“Adds seconds stab attack to Blessed Blade, dealing devastating single target damage.”
- That description losly tells you what happens, but terms like “devastating” are even less helpful as power numbers with no context. It also skips that the added stab is also able to knockback monsters. (There is also the “if it adds a seconds stab, where is the first stab” question.)
“Critical Strikes instantly slay enemies if their current health is less than 4 times the amount of damage of the Critical Strike. Half effect vs Lords and Monsters.”
- Are we supposed to multiply numbers we don’t know by 4 depending on the hp numbers of enemies we don’t have in game? To figure out if this is actually worth it requires an excel sheet on top of the damage calculator some blessed being birthed. In the end, after taking that dive and time investment, you conclude that its not ever worth it to be taken.
Ontop of that we have the usual questionable answers on what damage or Power level boost increase.
Why cant we have descriptions like “Virtue of the Penitent”?
“The party now has an additional, repeatable task. This task is always “Slay enemies”, which only occurs when using this talent. Like the others tasks, the number required changes with difficulty. Upon completion, Markus will get a Strength Potion and the task will reset. If Markus is already carrying a potion or grimoire, the strength pot will be dropped on the ground.”
That way we would also know if the Talents actually work how they were intended to work.
If Virtue of Penitent was written like the Stoicism description it would be:
“Adds 3rd Duty that grants a Strength Potion.” No words about it being repeatable, what happens when the pot slot is filled, or that the quest is always slay with changing numbers depending on difficulty.
Why do we have perfect descriptions in some cases, but absolute hogwash in others, and why is GK filled with hogwash ones?
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I could be wrong about this, but hogwash ones are much more common are they not? They were the absolute majority at the start of the game at least. Though some got patched to be a bit better.
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Not saying that´s good by any means but it is the standard we got 
Confidence should definitely slide and hit 2 CWs, it’d also be cool if it could be aimed like the SoTT wall and swung in either direction. Stoicism should also work as advertised since the current form is overwritten by a single tick of damage, so instead of getting 50+ THP back from an overhead you get like 5 from that gas tick. Knightly Temper could provide a passive crit chance boost or something but really Ideal is just stacked overtuned as a talent. Its 3 stack trophy hunter with basically 100% uptime. It boosts power level so the heavy attack talent is completely outclassed by it there too, boosting raw damage only. Joust is a little stacked too, most careers just get 1 of BCR or stamina regen talents and often conditions on those like WHC cast away but here’s a trinket/necklace property for free. I’m also leery of defensive talents like the parry one I can’t even remember existing on offensive rows, like that has to have single-percentage equip rates.
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For something more interesting, I’d much prefer Grail Knight’s other Ult Talent, the one that gives a single slash that increase your movespeed to actually alter the Ult. Keep the movespeed effect, but make the ult now a rush not affected by gravity akin to Zealot/Handmaiden, and have Kruber lower the sword in a poke, just like the second stab attack.
Stoicism is a sticky one. As people have said, it doesn’t really work like its stated. A way to make it a good choice would be to take something from Slayer, where it gives you DR after a Charged Attack.
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I don’t know about that. Most Talents are worded fine. Like Limb-Splitter: “Increases Cleave Power by 50%” It says you what it does quite accurately. Most people will still not know what it does. There is not enough info provided ingame. But there is also nothing more to it. No hidden corners. No double bottom.
Then there is the confusing Vermintide math magic like Crit damage, or Headshot/hit damage increases that doesnt work as you would think. Also bad, but still not inaccurate.
Talent descriptions that plainly lie to you are not that common. GK features talents like that, and he also calls the most confusing Talent his own. VoKT.
Just wanted to add, as you mention in the next sentence, it’s a power increase while Trophy Hunter is just damage so it’s straight up better Trophy Hunter in most scenarios lol.
Big agree with that idea. A lunge would give a unique option on that row with its own applications. Plays well into the current identity as the mobility option but would function better in that role than the current version.
I think it’d be alright with its current effect if it simply applied to the highest single instance of damage in the last 5 seconds rather than just the most recent one.
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Am I the only one who feels that Stoicism is basically fine? I always have significantly more temp health and can play more aggressively when I use it in official content. And the last thing GK needs is a buff.
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Completely fair, I honestly haven’t played with it enough to know, just seen a bunch of people complain about it so was spitballing ways to make it a little more consistent. Was under the impression most people run Joust on that row.
Yeah I do agree with that general sentiment.
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I don’t think it’d be a buff so much as sorting out offending talents and replacing bad ones since some just aren’t able to come up to par in the current form. Surely its less work than tossing the baby out with the bathwater like they just did for 2 elf careers. Kruber’s careers actually have a pretty good variety in terms of talent loadouts, except GK because a couple are so crazy tuned there’s no reason not to run them. I’d like the extra stagger strength from Ideal passed to a new talent, so my GS/Mace and Shield bullyknight loadout stays viable.
I am probably biased coming from waystalker whose bleed doesnt work with poison/fire but it doesnt say that anywhere
Really is a major headache in the chaos wastes.
When the current form is really bloody strong and verging on OP, then bringing other things “up to par” is a buff. I don’t think that’s desirable.
GK’s lvl 10 talent row is a great example of this. Knightly Temper is a pretty damn strong talent, but people in this thread are advocating to buff it because they are comparing it in a vacuum against an even stronger talent, Ideal.
I would much rather see Ideal get a nerf, Knightly Temper be left alone, and Heroism be adjusted for a new niche like shields or something that GK currently doesn’t really cater towards.
I feel like people do that largely because Cheese dumps on Stoicism in his builds and GK guide. The internet loves to parrot the opinions of others.
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It’s been said many times now but Ideal should really be changed to damage and Heroism changed to power. Even that would really just be a slap on the wrist for Ideal, but at least those 2 would be more competitive with each other that way. Heroism would become appealing over Ideal for shields and weapons with cleaving heavy attacks. As it is Ideal is smothering for sure. Compared to other classes’ raw power talents it’s basically in a class of its own. Heck I personally think even MtM is a bit dumb but Ideal makes even that look quaint.
That wouldn’t really change GK meta though, at most the meta pick would just swap Ideal for Heroism maybe. Too many of GKs best weapons have extremely good heavy attacks. After all, M&S is broken precisely because Fatshark overbuffed its heavy attack and exe sword is almost used exclusively for its heavy attack.
I believe that the ideal, heh, change for Heroism would be something that favors the less meta weapons and cannot be so easily used by the old M&S+xsword combo. Possibly something centered around stagger since the shields, the various hammers, and greatsword all excel to at that to some degree or another.
Iam not convinced Ideal is the meta pick for anything but Cata. Its just what people take, because the broadly available guides are made for cata, where Ideal is 100% superior to Heroism. Herosim allows you to onshot everything with an exe heavy to the head at any time without setup. M&S heavy spam has enough cleave and stagger power that you wont ever have to worry about missing out on that part of Ideal.
Both Talents have their place. VoKT on the other hand is just a trap. Instead of taking one of the best damage Talents in the game, you get some sudo killing power that either doesnt proc, because of your low crit chance, or would have killed the target long before it does, because you are missing out on up to 30% damage each hit.
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I think GK is beautiful the way it is. It has clear weakness and strength, which is a good sign in a coop game. There are some dead talents but not too many compared to other careers, currently giving enough options for builds IMO.
GK feels great to play and play with in general. The only thing that I’d really like to see fixed about GK is his 2nd ult, and I see some people already suggested lunge type of ult for it which I would love to see.