Footknight: Staggering Force should be a passive

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Feedback
1

I already touched the argument in this thread, where I summarized “beta’s results”, but I think it would deserve an own space… since, in my opinion, it’s the main FK’s problem.

The thread is divided in two points (the need of Stagger Power as dafault + Staggering Force’s problem), wich will converge in one: Staggering Force should be a passive.

  1. Why FK needs some Stagger Power as passive:

I talked a lot about FK: in many threads and with many people… and, despite intense discussions and clashes of opinions, there is a point shared by most: the main FK’s duty is to create space. For this reason I think he should have more Stagger Power as default, a characteristic feature, in order to underline his identity… something always present/active, regardless builds and styles adopted.

Giving a look to other careers’ passives, can help to understand the situation. I will throw some examples:

  • Shade and WHC are skilled assassins, indeed they can instantly slay man-sized enemies under determinate conditions.
  • Iron Breaker is a “tower”, indeed he has Gromril Armour wich makes him super tough.
  • Bounty Hunter is a… bounty hunter. Indeed he has Blessed Shot to quickly neutralize the target.
  • Unchained is a monster with crazy aggressive and defensive skills… but she’s very, very risky. Indeed she has 50% Dmg Reduction, up to 60% melee Power… but she must pay attention to Overcharge.
  • Zealot has Power for missing HP and “Resist death”… like a good Flagellant.

I could continue all night long… these are just a couple of examples… but they are important to notice how passives should work. Reflect and improve the career’s style.

Instead, if we elaborate Footknight’s passives (at least to me), they seem very “flat”, “dull”. Nothing that you can really feel… nothing to stand out FK’s style.

He can just spread some Dmg Reduction… but we are forced to choose between a ridiculously small range or a irrelevant bonus (especially now that DR isn’t additive, 15% doesn’t make a great difference).

I would like to throw some datas:

ALL pictures are taken from THIS thread; the author is Ingrett, to him goes my thanks

FKpassives
FKpassives694×335 8.52 KB

Datas that show how actually there is a problem among FK’s passives… be it Stagger Power lackness or current passives’ weakness.

DR
DR693×693 16.3 KB

This one is less relevant… it’s just to underline how FK’s DR passive has some problems.

  1. Staggering Force’s problem + why it should not be a talent:

This point is, in turn, divided into two points:

  • If I adopt an AGGRESSIVE STYLE, there are good probability that I choose a talent between Crowd Clearer and Have a Thee! (it’s enough to think how many players were angry about the latter removal during early beta)… and don’t get me wrong, it’s pretty logical. Exe Sword and Bretonnian Sword, for example, can reach some breakpoints thanks to +15% power… while weapons like Halberd and Mace&Sword exploit “push” a lot.
    BUT think how cool it would be to play those weapons aggressivly and, at same time, maintain the extra Stagger Power from Staggering Force.
    It would be simply magnificent in order to enforce FK’s style… as if, the knights’ training, gave to him a special ability to wield and use weapons.
    A way to make FK even more different from Merc (wich has, instead, more Cleave as passive).
    Give up to part of his identity is really sad.

  • If I adopt a PURE TANK STYLE (with a Shield), there are good probability that I choose Staggering Force… and here the problems start:

    • staggering Monks is its only advantage. A talent focused vs one only enemy, it’s already sad, moreover…
    • … in order to stagger Monks with a bash, the enemy MUST be under the crosshair (where stagger is higher)… this means that it’s often impossible control them with push-bash combo (since Monks come from everywhere). To efficiently stagger Monks, we have to spam push… and this quickly ends the stamina (always if you had it);
    • Staggering Force can easily replaced with some Power vs Berserker/Skaven.

The personal FINAL CONCLUSION is simply what I wrote at the start: adding Staggering Force as passive would help to improve FK’s duty/style (create space)… and this, paradoxically, would transform Staggering Force’s defects (those three written above) in merits… since they would be a “proof” that this change would not make FK “broken” or too strong.

Little post scriptum: in this way we could also add a new talent, and there are many interesting options, like this one (again from Ingrett’s poll):

BM
BM693×383 11.3 KB

Build Momentum is a (I don’t understand why) removed talent that would greatly help FK to make space: more stamina you have, more you can use push-bash combo.

THANKS FOR READING

9 Likes
2

Since he keep saying that he is “Bull of Ostland” and “I’m a bloody battering ram, that’s what I am”, I think he’s going to staggering everything seems fits well to him as a Foot Knight.

5 Likes
3

I would like to add one point to the thread. If I want to play a staggering FK with a shield, Staggering Force and Crowd Clearer are pretty redundant. Let me explain why:

What are the most important properties for a shield build?

  1. Block cost reduction;
  2. 30% power vs Skaven/Berserker (in order to stagger Monks);
  3. Attack speed to spam bash faster or something to help ranged breakpoints;

This is FK’s scenario (talent + properties on weapon and charm):

  • Staggering Force + 10% attack speed + 10% infantry + 30% block cost reduction
  • Crowd Clearer + 30% vs Monks + 30% block cost reduction;

These two options give almost the same identical result. The only difference it that the first one has 10% infantry to help a Rep Gun’s breakpoint… the second one gives a little more attack speed… but the difference between two talents should be more evident, more incisive. In my opinion.

Ye, I agree! Honestly I had not thought about his dialogue lines… they are a further confirmation that FK’s main duty is stagger!

5

I play Footknight exclusively. I’ve played through all of the various changes and I actually prefer how he is now. I am a staggering force and I never run out of stamina. Compared to how he was on launch, he definitely has a way better setup now. I play all difficulties and have completed all cataclysm maps as Footknight.

Tbh idk if I could complete cataclysm with his original talents if they were never changed. OG Legend was pretty brutal on launch.

6

Thanks!

I appreciate your feedback but, if I can be honest, it seems a little bit off topic, like if there was a little misunderstanding…

Don’t get me wrong, you are right: current FK is the best FK we have seen until now… but this doesn’t mean that he is perfect or that he can’t be even better!
In my opinion, since you are a Staggering Force fan, my “build” should improve your style too… I don’t want upset FK’s style (my FK version doesn’t limit or remove any current possibility)… I want keep and improve it.

About stamina regen, it was only a little point in the overall picture, I don’t want focus myself too much on it… anyway it’s true: with some management, you can maintain your stamina… but more stamina regen you have, more you can play “aggressively”… more you play aggressively, more space you create. Once again is a nice option to improve his style.

p.s I also play a lot with FK… and I completated every game’s challenge.

1 Like
7

That’s the point though. Footknight has already been improved. He’s perfectly suited already for all difficulties including cataclysm.

I actually like his current talent choices. I don’t want them changed.

2 Likes
8

Don’t get me wrong, I respect your idea and I don’t want to convince you… but let me explain what I mean.

That he’s suited for every difficulty doesn’t mean that there can be no problems… these are two different things.

For example an over power career can have, paradoxically, an entire row/tier of useless talents or something that doesn’t work.

Now: everyone has his opinion… I can say that FK should have some stagger power as default to underline his identity… you can say that you like his current talents… but, and sorry if I can seem a little bit arrogant, I think there are certain objective problems. For example a talent useful vs one only enemy (and not even so useful). A talent that can be replaced with a couple of properties. The paradox about the two redundant talents (written in the other answer). The aura’s small range. His (poor) dmg reduction fragmented in more sources.

Moreover, just to be clear, after my changes, you will be able to play him exactly as you do now… you will be able to pick up the same bonus, adopt the same style… so none will lose his build or what he likes.

I don’t want to bore you again, I will not continue anymore, but I had to explain a couple of points.

Best regards.

2 Likes
9

There you just proved that Footknight doesn’t need any changes.

Footknight has already went through 3 talent changes and yet people are still not satisfied. He is already a staggering machine and is completely balanced for all difficulties. Fatshark did really well on his talent rework and I do hope he stays this way :grinning:

Edit: Footknight is already strong without Staggering Force and therefore should not be a passive. His other 2 ultimate talents are also really good. It should stay where it is to prevent power creep.

1 Like
10

Uhm… I don’t think that my words proved this, mainly when I wrote an entire thread where I say the opposite and also some factual problems. Apart this, as said, I will not try to convince you. We agree that we disagree.

p.s anyway a career doesn’t become “balanced” only because it received an high number of changes… it can become balanced after one only change or remain unbalanced after many changes.

2 Likes
11

I think you’re the one that’s not understanding me. I never said he was balanced because of how many times that he has been changed.

Footknight is balanced in the sense that for the first time in 2 years he can finally fulfill his role as a crowd controller. He’s not a DPS, boss killer, or special sniper. Footknight is a pure crowd control and all of his current talents are useable for that role.

The whole point of having 3 talent choices per line is to give the player options based on their play style. I have used the Staggering Force talent but I don’t need it. I prefer the 3 second invincibility talent as it suits my aggressive play style better.

Adding it as a passive will only make his career stupidly overpowered. If you like that talent then choose it. The whole point I’m trying to make is that it’s not needed. If Fatshark wants to add another passive to Footknight then I would want something more useful over something that’s situational.

I think you just need more practice with Footknight. I’ve played as all careers but Footknight is my favorite and his kit right now is beautiful.

Don’t break something that’s already been fixed.

1 Like
12

Words mean what words mean. There isn’t any link between numbers of changes and people’s satisfaction. I was saying that.

“Stupidly overpowered” and “situational” they aren’t two terms that get along very well… but you know what, I don’t care. I don’t think we can find a common point and going on would be just a wast of time.

Let me to say the last two things, than I swear I will not quote you (in this thread) anymore… not because I don’t like you, just for this discussion’s (and who reads it) sake.

I respect your opinions but this seems to me just ignoring what I wrote… I explained what problems there are around these points. But you can disagree, it’s fair.

You can’t know this. I completed every game’s challenge. I played FK in every difficulty… high weaves (>120) included. I also play him on mods like Cataclysm 3 + Onslaught… wich make regular Cata feels like Recruit.

1 Like
13

Honestly just a passive 15% stagger power passive would be pretty cool. Maybe even add something like an increased stagger cleave power but not damage cleave power passive, and then make Merc’s cleave passive & talent only affect damage and not stagger, so they mirror each other.

4 Likes
14

tbh FK just needs smiter and he’s fine

3 Likes
15

If you mean +15% passive stagger and still maintain Staggering Force as talent, I agree, it can be cool… but their numbers should be “well thought out”… they should aim to reach precise breakpoints. Example: 15% passive + 35% Staggering and dunno, +20% Power, should be enough to stagger CW diagonal attack or the overhead.

Don’t get me wrong: I’m not saying that FK is bad… but there are certain internal mechanics with some problems.

In my opinion it can’t be all right if, when I want to play with a Shield (pretty legit, since he’s one of the only 2 tank on 16 careers), I’m forced to pick up Staggering Forcer… and there aren’t even great synergies: it’s useful vs one only enemy And not even so much (since not the entire bash cone can stagger them, only the central part)…

… and anyway a couple of properties can replace it. Now, I don’t want start a FK vs IB discussion, not at all, let me do one only example (then we can cancel IB from this thread).

As FK, I don’t feel nothing specials in taking Staggering Force since, IB, with only two properties + Blood of Grimnir has his personal Staggering Force. The same indentical effect.

Or again there is to consider that FK’s dmg reduction is splitted… so its not even 25%… while many not tank careers have directly 30%.

Or again the base aura size.

16

Personally, I am absolute against Foot Knight having any kind of stagger power as passive. Neither the whole Staggering Force (which would be idiotic power creep) nor minor amounts. Because in the end those minor amounts are in the end “just enough” so that someone can take another talent although he would like to have the increased stagger power. If people want to have this power they have the talent to make a choice. If the game makes more talents and passives which lead in the end to an increase of reward but with no risk then there will be more problems.

There are zero reasons or facts why Foot Knight should have an innate stagger passive. The whole opening is either very narrowsighted or blatant falsehood. Staggering is NOT Foot Knights identity. Protection of Team mates is his identity of which staggering is one aspect but not the core. For this identity he has his Battering Ram active skill he can use every 30! seconds and his aura which can be enhanced in mutliple ways (Comrades in Arms is still an aura just a changed application, more focused/singular but therefore stronger). There is zero need to increase on this identity aspect with more or changed passives.

I think the most maddening part is the argument that Staggering Force is a shield only talent O.o Why reduce a talent to two or three weapons if there are so many more potentially useful applications. To consider the Staggering Force just as something which you can use to stagger monks with shields is simply incredible narrow-sighted. There are some Tests which I will have to run tomorrow evening but I am pretty sure that the talent will tremendously help with an aggressive playstyle over a multitude of weapons.

TLDR: Under no circumstances should Staggering Force be a passive for Foot Knight. It is unneeded Power Creep and there are zero actual reasons for such a change.

3 Likes
17

I can understand that, even to talk about my arguments, you quote Velsix… afterall we know: we can’t find a common point on nothing and every discussion would be useless.

Obvly I’m against every single word you wrote, I don’t care, we agree that we disagree, but not misunderstand my words.

I didn’t say that Staggering Force is a shield only talent. I said that, with a Shield, every tier 10 options is pretty weak (Staggering Force helps only against Monks and not even so much: objective and demonstrable fact; Crowd Clearer is a redundant Staggering Force’s alternative: also in this case I exposed objective facts with numbers; Have a Thee doesn’t add any breakpoint)… and Shields are a very important FK’s aspect because, if I want to play Shields’ style, I have two only choices on 16 careers.

While, usually, with other weapons, the other two talents are better… for example Have a Thee adds breakpoints to Exe and Bretonnian Sword. Crowd Clearer helps a lot Mace & Sword and Halberd.

But right… FK must not stagger/create space (I think you are the only person that write this)… it’s Protective Presence that makes the career… in fact we aren’t forced to choose between a ridiculously small range or ridiculously small buff… but sorry, my bad, I said I don’t care.

I repeat: I quoted you only to explain this misunderstanding… I have zero interest to start an infinite discussion, so I will not quote you anymore.

1 Like
18

The identity you speak of comes from passive damage reduction that requires FK to stand next to people + spam charge when someone gets incapacitated with a certain talent. Thrilling gameplay. I could get behind the idea of it replacing the stamina passive, only working on attacks and not pushes though, to increase the risk. Hell, I’d even like to see pushes have some risk or skill element attached to them (headshot pushes anyone?).

I’ve always seen FK as more of a tank/bruiser hybrid with control that was more frequent but less powerful than IB’s taunt. The damage reduction always seemed lazy to me. Doesn’t even have anything to do with knights (at least not more so than mercenaries).

I’m all ears to a rework that would make protecting others interesting, though I think stagger is the better way of doing that, rather than the nearly entirely passive stats we have now. Perhaps attacks that FK blocks fail to cleave through him? Or something like that.

I thought making Merc and FK mirror each other through damage and stagger cleave would allow non-shields weapons to be interesting on FK in a way that isn’t just Bull of Ostland. Again it’s easy enough to replace another passive here, like No Guts No Glory.

I highly recommend the Sword & Shield and Mace & Shield on Mercenary. The extra cleave gives Merc very strong control with it, and they can get enough power to make it stagger well, while also having a good support ult and a personal damage reduction talent. It has some nice synergy as well, since unlike most of Kruber’s weapons (with the exception of the Greatsword) it can get paced strikes up against Chaos Warriors.

Edit: I completely forgot the important synergy. The shield bash can give multiple stacks of Helborg’s Tutelage, and Merc can make the crit bash stagger a CW out of their overhead on Cata (Oppourtunist, 30% vs, Enhanced Power and Reikland Reaper). On a clump of elites or any enemy this basically means every second bash is a crit, sometimes every third. Free infinite crit shield pushes as well (not sure if crit pushes reach any stagger breakpoints though).

2 Likes
19

I thought about a good synergy.

Currently: 30% Chaos/Armoured + Staggering Force + Enhanced Power + Tag Team = FK can stagger (with a bash) overhead CW attack.

But (imho) it’s a “meme” build: I have to give up to everything just to stagger better one CW (since, anyway, you can’t stagger more overhead attacks at once: you can’t control a group/patrol of them). It’s not worth.

Instead, with 15% stagger power as passive, “only” Staggering Force + 30% Chaos/Armoured would be enough: still a huge investment (wich means that nothing is given away) but, at least, we could focus on stagger without creating a meme build and giving up to every single tank/support abilites.

Actually I have played Merc with every weapon… shields apart. Uhm, thanks for the advice. I will try.

20

I like Velsix’s ideas a lot. With the whole battering ram and valiant charge thing he has, he feels a lot more like a bruiser. I’m not an expert but it has certainly felt to me as though Staggering Force is meant for shield weapons. However, I do not know how powerful his cc would be with both crowd clearer/have at Thee and Staggering Force, and from the sounds of it might make mixed hordes much easier than they should be.

I’m a little conflicted about swapping the free stamina with staggering force as a passive for a number of reasons. I rely on the extra stamina to clutch and for crowd control with weapons like mace and executioner. Mace and sword and greatsword benefit from having extra stamina as well.

As a middle ground, which I feel at worst would put him on par with other s tier careers, we could have a passive to grant him 10-15% extra stagger power on heavy attacks. Still helps with some breakpoints, not just a flat buff to all his attacks and still feels like part of his bruiser playstyle.

3 Likes
21

either way, FK passives are underpowered, don’t you agree?

  • damage resist aura that doesn’t do much difference with a tiny radius
  • a little damage resist on top for himself
  • and 1 stamina shield

compare that to the majority of other careers, they have more substantial passives aimed for their roles.

If stagger passive is wrong, then double the aura radius by default and give it a little more dmg resist.

4 Likes