What nonsense are you talking about. This talent is on the same level of talent with an infinite supply of overheating after killing a specialist and attack speed for each stack of overheating. You cannot use these 15% of strength on a permanent basis since you need to have a supply of overheating to help your allies, survival. If he would give 50% extra damage to the last shot - that would make sense.
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The 15% power increase is way more consistent. If you can manage your overheat well and you run crit pyro build + temp hp on ult, its a good talent, it goes very well with conflag, but fireball works just as well. don’t get me wrong the special talent is good aswell, but the 15% power is not useless and not nonsense.
Yeah i have no idea why you think the 15% power talent is usefull beside for trolling.
Do you think 15% is strong enough to risk it ?
You wont last 10 seconds in red overcharge even if u manage to luckily kill a special in this state and counting on the “crit wont cause overcharge” trait ? she have more crit% sure but for 15% power only is a waste of effort.
It should be more usefull i don’t see why picking it.
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Thats why i said in my comment ‘manage overcharge well’ and im not counting on the crit refund trait, i manage my overcharge.
For now it doesn’t seems a list that huge.
Which would be a good thing, if the list was pretty short.
i’m gonna post this here. if there is a use for these talents in scenarios i didnt think of in the 2seconds i put this together then please, comment.
ready for action
taals champion
its hero time
Ricochet
loaded bow
shadowstep
cloak of mist
necessary means
buckshot
-30 cdr on ult for bw
burning dregs
flame wave
focused spirit
edit: wanted to add power when out of ammo talent for rv, but i think it works with throwing axes, not too familiar with them.
Half of them are usefull,
taals champion is good you can play FK as freaking murder machine with how shitton atk spd he have on demand.
It’s hero time well all of those 3 are quite useless right now
Loaded bow good with premades when there is rv
Neccesary means is better than weight of fire
Focused spirit being bad? What? Its best talent in that row, Its one of even better talents in game actually, its teach you to not take damage.
All im saying is 15% is not enough reliable and you can’t get enough shots to perform well in hordes, kills specials when your team can’t deal with them ( with the talent up since venting put you back in around 80% overcharge).
Again i dont doubt you can’t manage your overcharge over red, i’m saying that 15% is not enough worth the struggle of reducing your capability to deal with any opponent.
The twos other talent are better choice
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But that’s the thing i’m trying to tell you, i can deal with those situations. I literally play with both talents alot. Yes it’s more effort and more managing but that doesn’t make it a bad talent because it requires more effort.
I would say my take on useless talents
Krub:
Ready for action - comparing to 2 others don’t give enough to be anything good and thp from ult have a lot of usefull situations.
Maim - Just uhh outside of monster, do you even get anything from it ? Counting that rest talents on that row will give you benefit all time even will outshine in situations where you will get that 30% more power. - Ok there is some specific use like posted later in comments.
Bardin:
Shake and share - 10% for you 10% for somebody, you lose 10% just because or lose even better bomb and pots pickup, completly stupid
Crushing counter blow- Why only one attack if it was like 5 s or something it will be actually quite good talent? You will get more from rest of talents on that row all time.
High Tally - literally 10% after 4 hit more power vs amazing ult regen or 30% more speed… no thats just dumb
Wutelgi:
Delete her she is worst 
Spirit arrow - way to low reward vs what it gives in best case scenario it will regen 30 s ult when you are literally no shooting and standing doing nothing, and having no 20% cd less and in practice max 10 s or something ?
Fervent huntress - 10 s for special and only 15% speed, completly situational that wont give any real benefit
Ricochet - Gimmick
Asrai Grace - does it even work? Do you need faster regen for 20 s ult ?
Both ult thats are not invis, if it had enough stagger to make you somewhat safe it would be ok, but right now its just suicide most of time, or cheesing with 90% BCR And not contributing to fight
Ereth something - 75% for backstab, underpowered with how its counting dmg calculations, completly outshinned by rest of talents on that row
Shadowstep - I completly dont see sense in that mechanic
Saltz
Weight of fire, completly outshinned by Open wounds, maybe only usefull if you have some spam weapon or breakpoint but I don’t recognise any breakpoints worth taking it over 20% dmg applied by open wound (because its works for that crit shoot to)
Buckshot, yeah its alternative but quite bad, with how double shooted is still not fixed.
Faith flurry- 5 s is really low time for this, coming that you can have flaggelant zeal that will when refunded will nearly give you full ult.
Sienna
Volan quickening - 30% of ult when you can have 2 ults for price of one and that ult is quite fast anyway, boring and outclassed
Chain reaction - never saw that working correctly
Burning dregs - yeah if it was 90% instead of 50% it would be amazingly good talent
Flame wave- 50% range, with how low damage from that ult is and its big stagger radius from base, I don’t see anything good from it.
Fuel for fire - it works against class practically.
How does this work against class practically? If you mean because it increases the ranged damage then I wonder why you shouldn’t be using range as Unchained. And the 25 % damage increase on conflag or fireball can make a significant difference if you are in the middle of fighting a horde.
Even if we disregard the range buff because “melee”. Every active skill on Unchained empties the overcharge, bringing her melee bonus down to 0 %. With Fuel to the Fire you stay at least at 25 % additional melee damage which is again very welcome as you use the active skill most likely during hordes anyway. And in the 10 s you have the bonus you can built up new overcharge for bonus damage. So it bridges that time very well.
Additionally, Fuel to the Fire increases the stagger power and damage of the active skill up to 25 %. With the talent you can kill Slave Rats and Ungors with just your active skill and damage most of the remaining horde into one hit territory.
In my opinion, Fuel to the Fire is far superior to Bomb Balm which you dont really need. Unchained normally dies due to overcharge and not due to low health, so the THP doesnt have use for it. And it does only have a small use for the team as you most often used it in a scenario where the rest of the team is so far away that they don’t benefit from the talent due to low range. Bomb Balm has a good place on bots though and on the Unchained support built. On actual players? Don’t use Bomb Balm, it brings not much to the table.
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You need to use it close to enemies(not that close but still it wont stagger elites in middle of attack), and then use ranged working up your overcharge and making yourself ease target. Hmm
And no it doesn’t increase stagger or damage for active skill, its still does same damage, it will boost dot because dot count for your active power boosting stuff (only passive power bonuses increase stagger, or maybe they fixed it but I don’t think so)
You can kill slave rats and ungors without boost on legend with ult
And Bomb balm have a lot of uses, thp for your teammates and stagger trash is a lot of help.
But yeah there is maybe some use for it but still I find that Thp on demand is way more usefull, maybe more ranged oriented unchained.
So 15% of all talents could use an overhaul if I take this list
- 25% Power when out of Ammo Talents - They’re usable, but very clunky feeling and take up a lot of your build/playstyle, while leaving you in the awkward situation of being out of ammo. Would like to see them tweaked in some way.
Kruber:
Footknight
- It’s Hero Time - increase Movement Speed by 30% when ally is incapacitated
Just too specific with a little chance of it ever being useful. Other Talents are better choices.
Huntsman
- THP on kill
He should have Multi-hit THP, as he doesn’t always have the killing power/survival to maintain THP with THP on kill, his weapons don’t synergize well with this Talent
Sienna:
Unchained
- Searing Grasp - Push-Attacks ignite enemies with a light damage over time effect
DoT runs out before it can be useful (with the 30% damage reduction Talent). They hit when the DoT has run out, basically.
The Attack Speed Talent is the best on this row.
- Flamewave - Increases the radius of Living Bomb explosion by 50%
Just not worth it.
Saltspyre:
WHC
- Riposte: Blocking just as an enemy is about to hit makes your next attack a garanteed Critical Hit
Rarely useful, other Talents are better.
Bounty Hunter
- THP on kill
Other Talents are better choices. Much rather see Mult-hit THP here too. While he has an easier time than Huntsman because of the way Saltz’ weapons work, it’s still not amazing at maintaining his THP.
- Hunter’s pursuit- Ranged Critical hits increase movement speed by 20% for 10 seconds
This would be preferable on Melee to even compete with the other two Talents.
Bardin:
IB
- Crushing Counter-blow- Blocking an attack increases the Power of Bardin’s next attack by 5%. Stacks up to 5 times
Just not worth it. Blood of Grimnir every time.
I don’t even use the Drakefire Talent either because you can get Power for Pistols/Flamethrower from BoG instead. Drakefire Talent not on my list because other people use it, would like to see increase in Overheat reduced to 15% to make it worth it.
RV
- While he has no ‘useless’ Talents, I can’t help but feel his Talents are the most lacklustre of any Career.
Kerillian (my main):
WS
The last two rows of her Talents are completely almost unchangable. Asrai Focus and Kurnous’ Reward are just too good to be worth playing with anything else.
Either those two Talents need to be nerfed/changed, or the other Talents need to be nerfed/buffed.
Even if Ricochet does give you two Hag clouds, I’d still rather have higher ammo regen, so I can spam for longer.
- Fervent Huntress - Killing a Special or Elite enemy increases Movement Speed by 15% for 10 Seconds.
This is a notably bad Talent regardless of how linear your choices are, it’s too specific and random to feel like it would make a useful tool.
HM
- Asrai Grace - Increase CDR rate by 15% for every nearby Ally.
Other than the Stealth Ult for cheesing certain missions, CDR is quite useless on HM solely because her Ult is mainly a mobility tool, which only gets used in certain situations.
- Bladedancer - Dashing through an enemy causes them to bleed for significant damage over time
Puts you out of position, feels awkward to use (camera lock & survivability), spamming it with Asrai Grace leaves you out of position, while doing less damage than you would it you just fought.
Conclusion:
I have builds with every other Talent in the game to make them useful. Some of these too, but they’re just not worth it over other talents. They could either do with tweaking or changing completely.
Maim - Just uhh outside of monster, do you even get anything from it ? Counting that rest talents on that row will give you benefit all time even will outshine in situations where you will get that 30% more power.
I use it on my Repeater Gun Huntsman. It´s mostly a bodyshot build and Maim really helps with some breakpoints; the more HP enemies have the better it gets. And the damage boost against bosses is huge. It´s certainly not a bad talent, though most people will pick one of the other two options.
Weight of fire, completly outshinned by Open wounds, maybe only usefull if you have some spam weapon or breakpoint but I don’t recognise any breakpoints worth taking it over 20% dmg applied by open wound (because its works for that crit shoot to)
… is also a talent I use on my Pistol Bounty Hunter. Similar to Maim in that regard, I guess.
About your line of argumentation: I don´t think many mentioned talents are “bad” per se, mostly it´s just that the other two options are preferable. But I am wondering if there are any talents that fall under
“If I had to chose between having this talent and having none in that row, I would rather pick none” - as I feel about Ready for Action.
PS: For those of you who dont know all the talents by name, you can look them up here.
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Okay, so I went again and tested once again on Modded Realm Cataclysm difficulty. Unless I haven’t misclicked (and I am pretty sure I haven’t) we have the following results:
- With Fuel to the Fire you do more damage on explosion and dot in comparison to Bomb Balm. It has been like this like all the time in 2.0
- It does increase stagger. The active skill does stagger Stormvermin and Bestigor overhead with and without the Fuel to the Fire bonus. With the full 25 % bonus for Fuel to the Fire you can additionally stagger Chaos Warrior Overheads on Cataclysm. With Bomb Balm you can’t do this.
- At least Ungors need the Fuel to the Fire bonus to be killed by the active skill on Cataclysm
The active skill is most likely used because of overcharge as safety trigger (although with Fuel to the Fire you can also use it purposefully to wipe hordes). This means you are most likely surrounded by more than one enemy anyway. So in hordes you will easily have the +5 for the 25 % full power bonus. Single hits rarely make you go boom and disablers don’t increase overcharge. So yea, having the bonus is quite easy and it makes a significant difference in damage and also stagger. And you have not 0 % melee bonus damage but 25 %, so it is better again than Bomb Balm.
The THP is the only “advantage” for Bomb Balm, the staggering is the same (actually nope, as explained before, Fuel to the Fire has the better stagger). The THP is as good as not needed on Unchained. How often do you see Unchained going down because of low health? It rarely happens due to the 50 % damage reduction. And if you are talking about ranged orientated Unchained Fuel to the Fire is also better as it increases the range damage by 25 % to. And due to the improved stagger you also have enough time during horde to go directly into range after using the active skill.
2 Likes
Ok I tested it again, there is amazingly high dmg fall off and I had been unlucky to be in specific place to have same results. You are right it does boost damage.
And suprisingly it have way higher stagger value than i though, it but I couldn’t stagger chaos warrior overhead on cata with fuel for fire or even on legend. And couldn’t find any attack that was staggerable by fuel for fire and wasn’t for bomb balm. Can you check it again?
Burning Dregs is the answer to that question. The logic behind that talent is infuriatingly stupid.
I’d also nominate Share & Share Alike. A talent that is only useful if the user is lazy really is baffling.
But yes, there’s a lot of people here that are just listing off talents that they don’t like, talents they don’t understand, talents that are very niche compared to a more generalist talent in the same row, and talents that are really gimmicky.
There’s loads of talents that I think are dumb, that I would never touch with a 10 foot pole, and that I outright despise. But I can also see how other people would like them. Which means I can’t really call them “bad” in good faith.
I’ve always said they should be replaced with a ranged weapon trait with like “Increases power by 25%. Reduces maximum ammunition by 90%.” They’re fun talents to take for a challenge, but people who don’t care about that get so salty about them.
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Would really need to theorycraft about this, since RV and BH have very different weapons and could probably do with different Talents to reflect that.
I’d suggest something that does both. A sort of weapon switching Talent. Just to give an idea:
Melee kill = 10% ranged Crit or Power
Ranged kill = 10% ranged Crit or Power
The reason I’m suggesting Crit too, is that RV uses this Talent and doesn’t have many passive stat options.