What should Fatshark focus on?

Well yes technically we get balance and bug fixes bundled with content, which is probably gonna happen for s3 patch. But if bug fixes, Qol, balance get delayed because of content then it’s not the right way to go about things, that’s what i mean with ‘it’s not like that right now’.

I know every new and fresh content is gonna be like that, thats why i would rather them not do it right now as it will add alot of those things to the pile. I would like them to learn from their mistakes before v2’s 10 years support is over. And i wouldn’t categorize LE as Qol, LE is a piece of content.

Don’t get me wrong a new career is hype af, just considering the other things make it a bit less hyped for me personally. With important stuff i mean Qol’s fixes (example: crafting has plenty), expanding or fixing existing systems (weeklies, LE,deeds), fixing bugs and crashes. It’s not only bug related.

I agree completely with that attracting new players is as important as retaining them, but do you think fatshark would be able to keep the players if they added a new career right now? But i understand players mostly leave because of ’ no content’.

Inb4 we get a super duper s3 patch with everything we’ve been asking for, for years.

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Oh this is quite the post…and i do find i agree with the conclusion reached.

New content is nice, new weapons are fun and talent revamps can be interesting but the bad stuff that carries over and is there constantly just grinds away at one´s patience until it becomes a pain to even look at it.

Others here already mentioned things they felt fit into that such as the crafting system, the state of various weapon traits or for me, the time it takes for some bugs to be fixed…or talents that just dont seem to have any reason to exist as they just do not do anything helpful.

So yeah indeed i also think that fatshark needs to stop pumping out half baked inventions like weaves or versus mode or even stuff that is somewhat interesting like new weapons and instead put effort into polishing the basegame content.

But at the same time it´s also true that new content is pointless or even harmful to the game if it isnt well made, just remember how the community felt when the beastmen first got added or the entire weave circus…which is still kinda ongoing.

I truly do think fatshark needs to take the basic features that we know are very bad or outright terrible such as the crafting system or weapon traits and remake them to be at least decent or good. Then they can look into adding a new career and fixing major bugs like some spawn bugs.

Those things will do far more good for player enjoyment rather than adding half baked content at the cost of not fixing the already existing bad stuff that even now eats away at our joy .c

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  • While technically, some QoL content you list can in fact be delayed by new features. Do not forget that 3D animators, game designers, and 3D artists will be mostly available for thoses new features.
  • The 2D Artists will be needed for both (new UI for reworked crafting for example, and new icons for buffs/portraits/UI for new career for example).
  • Depending on what the new career do, it’s possible that the dev time needed (in terms of programming) could be rather low. (except if they didn’t prepare for it)

It’s a bit weird to explain, but you usually “retain” your players by having a good rythm for release. Player retention is not really “keeping specific players involved for 3 years (from noob to cata able)”, it’s more “keeping a good chunk of playerbase at all time”. Which mean it can be new or old players alike, and can be swapped accordingly.
And yes, new careers dropped, and probably new character will actually do a lot for this game. As new choices are kinda what keeps players entertained for a long time.
Because yeah, some players will never go above champion, but they still do like changing their playstyle. Or having some sort of goal to change their playstyle (if new career is behind a long quest to unlock it for example).
This rythm, they understood it’s needed, hence the seasons. Which give us more less content at once, but also less space between new content (which did drop our playerbase a freakin’ lot the first year).

Now we do know that Craft 2.0 (based on our beloved Aethanor system) and Deeds 2.0 (based on we don’t really know what yet) are both in the works. As well as some kind of recolor system for skins (no promises on this, style a prototype to see if it’s doable per the latest news). And probably some others features we don’t know of.
It’s hard to get thoses news because of people quoting the roadmap like 2 years after to prove somewhat that it wasn’t followed (roadmap are not promises). And therefore it’s hard to know what they’re working on at a moment.
I really hope that @Fatshark_Hedge will get us a meaty Dev update in order to know what’s being worked (again, no promises it will be out one day) and what’s currently “paused”.

Tbh a ‘crafting rework’ isn’t really needed, especially not in the time it’s taking now (assuming they are working on it now). If a community asks specific fixes which would make the crafting less tedious, like rerolling fix, salvage fix, etc then they could just implement that, UNLESS the list of proposed fixes is soo high that they could rather rework it entirly to perfection because it would take around the same time. But right now that’s not the case (or maybe they wanna rework it in something we don’t even know we need). If they for example didn’t rework but just added those features then they would have more dev time to spend on new content.

What you said about the 3d artists and ui designers is true and that’s my point. What should get priority if they don’t wanna split their dev’s time? (They probably do that, would be weird no to)

Obviously I agree. Re-working/revamping/re balancing existing content makes it feel like you’re getting new content. Makes the game feel fresh again. Also, it doesn’t take near the resources that creating whole new content takes. And the changes are more permanent. Unlike weaves where people played them for a couple months then decided they’d rather just QP.

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Only running attacks having backstab sound, but normal ones doesn’t.
Bosses changing aggro, I don’t know, every 2-3 seconds (accompanied by insta180° attacks), or whenever they want, and me hearing the aggro change sound EVERY time they do, even if I’m not the target.
Entire horde waves running through me when I want to intercept them and I either have to hit or push or ult them to force aggro to me.
Assassin animation and movement speed not matching, resulting in sideways and backwards jumps, also they can jump from a tip of a needle.

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I couldn’t agree more. What a great post.

It’s unbelievable how many times people have asked for a crafting rework (because it obviously needs it) yet it doesn’t take priority. In fact, it’s somewhere low on the list, apparently!

Literally noone is saying they should stop adding content. Honestly, what a non-sentence. What we currently have seriously needs to be polished to form a real fundamental, you have all seen the wishlist.

(Real) weapon balance, improved beastmemes, crafting rework, deeds rework, cosmetics overhaul, more cosmetics which already exist in the game files, et cetera. I’d take all of this over a new map pack or DLC any day. Any day. I want the base game to be better before anything else. I have so many friends who don’t play because of the grind.

Speaking of beastmemes, I don’t think this “expansion” will receive any real updates beyond balance because it’s a paid DLC. So you kind of already “got it”. Honestly, beastmen should not have been part of an “expansion”, but on the other hand, at least now I can deactivate them!

Yeah, I don’t care about Versus at all. Fat Shark is lucky if it gets two hours out of me, L4D2 Versus wasn’t fun for me.

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Hedge said a year or two back that written feedback is very valuable to them. So in other words, this thread is valued.

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Yes, sure.
When something is referenced from here, then “you don’t have telemetric data”.
When someone says they should have data on this, then it’s “written feedback is valuable”.
Sure, probably both, but you will never know how much really, and seeing a few things from the past 2 years most likely not as much as they say.

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Telemetry can’t give you data on stuff that hasn’t happened yet. Like pretty much any future change that hasn’t yet been implemented.
Not only this, but Telemetric data is completely useless for some stuff. Deed reworks are a good example. They probably have data saying no one is playing deeds. But is that information helpful when people aren’t playing deeds because they need to be reworked? Everyone is in agreement deeds aren’t that great. That’s why we ask for a rework. Saying they shouldn’t rework a bad deed system because the data says no one is playing the bad deeds is a circular argument.

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Well, let us start from the beginning. The usage of telemetric data I only use for balancing arguments and not for stuff like if or how Deeds should be reworked. And I don’t think anyone here can convince me that our measely 1000 hours are giving us more insight than what Fatshark has on their hands concerning the balance of classes/balance/talents. In an ideal situation both ways come to the same conclusion. But obviously data can only help on stuff which is happening in the game. Don’t think I have to explain that to anyone. But weapons and talents being used is something which happens in every game without exception which is why FS has a near endless amount of data on this stuff.
As for Deeds, they are functional, maybe not good. Which is what I said initially. “Does it work?” => “Somehow.” So there is not urgent need to adress the system (although word is that it will happen eventually.

For Versus the absoulte ideal situation would be to be super succesful and the co-op part getting some kind of spill-over effect. Which would indirectly benefit the game.

As for the examples concerning weapon balance I would like to avoid getting in detail discussion as it is an endless back and forth. Again, while we are the data, we are only a part of the data. Just to give you an impression. The average player numbers last month has been about 3000 players with each player playing about 10 hours on average per two weeks. This means the total playership has been about 100000 people. Each of these people played like said before about 5 hours per week meaning that in just week we have an overall playtime of 500000 hours or about 2 millions in one month. So yes, we are data and the more we play the more insight we get but there is a difference between one thousand and two millions. Actual I would kinda call it arrogant to say that we are better at gauging weapon effectiveness. But like everything I write, just my opinion.
I do agree that there are gaps in the weapon strength which is also why I am sure that this will be visible and then Fatshark will hopefully tone down some of the overbearing stuff. Our approach also has a very simple problem. We play a weapon, say this feels good/bad and THEN look at why this is. So our look on the available data is already biased by our subjective feeling.

Sigh, I really want to avoid detail discussion but there are several players which prefer the movement speed bonus just because they like it fast. It also helps with outpacing enemies a bit longer (although not as bad as the situation in Vermintide 1 for a while), so it is your choice for survivabilily. For WHC I would need a lot deeper analysis, but extra damage for tagged enemies may actually help with certain break points which makes critting redundant if you kill it for certain without crit anyway. Several of these talents have places in different difficulties or maybe just in synchronized pre-made groups. There are others which appear bad even to me. But I have seen herde behaviour declaring talents bad once or twice before which is simply not the case.
And no, I don’t think invisibility is “better”. Especially if you say “powerful”. Invisbility does not increase your damage, it makes it easier to hit stuff without fearing counterhits. But if you want to maximize damage then the bleed talent is better. Because you know you can do the same damage as an invisibile Handmaiden even while being visible. Choice is again survivability versus damage. Interestingly enough your choice here is backwards to the Ranger situation.

Don’t get the part with the Beastmen. On the one hand it seemed you agree with Beastmen adding new gameplay elements which is a good thing and then you say they should have new units which just the same basic elements we already have in the game. Consistency and Lore aside, from a gameplay perspective I don’t need shielded Beastmen or Berzerkers unless they behave differently (which is why I support Chaos Warhounds as “Berzerker” unit).

To QoL. Yes, they are subjective. At least on the level “Do I want Fatshark to spend time on this instead of something which I am actually interested in?” Salvage all would be helpful but is only a problem for people who play a lot, for casual players such a function is irrelevant (also we have word that such a function would most likely cause backend issues). Stuff like the ability who is wounded or how much ammo everyone has is something I wouldn’t want to have on MY screen. As a toggable function for people with a control fetish it may be okay. Although I rather like the current approach to keep the information as low as possible and as high as necessary. Ammo for example we have sufficient indicators and wounded I can also follow live, so there is no need for me to have such a mod. And if I make it toggable I can also keep it as mod which is basically they same thing only with the benefit for FS to not being responsible for it.

Your last example with Battle Wizard is not well chosen. I specifically I said “something which everyone agrees on”. And you should know very well that there has been vocal opposition to nerfing her. “Who cares, it is fun.” So yea, not everyone agreed on Battle Wizard and the public outcry was not universal. And this opposition to nearly everything is the reason they are so careful with balance stuff.

NEW HEROES… OH GAWD… GIVE ME NEW HEROES…RAWR!

A new “Female” Warrior-Priest HoT Group heal hero would be amazing!

I don’t feel like continuing this discussion with you because I feel like it’ll just go nowhere. The only thing I can say is that I think you’re wrong on a lot of what you just said, and that’s that. But I do want to address one thing:

This is completely meaningless in my opinion, because players are not equal, nor are individual hours played. You can have hundreds of people use something like the Volley Crossbow, and it wouldn’t mean anything except that people used that weapon, nothing more. The stats of the weapon, it’s capabilities are objective, set in stone and universal. It couldn’t matter less if a significant portion of the playerbase used it, it doesn’t mean that it’s not underpowered and doesn’t need changing.
Another thing is total hours don’t give the same data that a very experienced players can give. 10 players with 100 hours are certainly not going to be better at giving good data than a player with 1k hours, because the person with 1h hours has reached levels of experience that the other, newer and more casual players simply don’t have. The more experienced player will likely know of game mechanics, stats and variables that the other less experienced players have yet to grasp. (lol I know this sounds very elitist, but I sure would hope that someone with thousands of hours would be better than a player with just 100 hours). This is why I think your argument is flawed, that and you think absolutely everything is subjective.

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I agree that further discussing leads nowhere but I don’t see the flaw you are mentioning. That is why I just want to add one last point.

Being good in a game and being good in analyzing a game are two different things. They can enhance each other but you don’t need the one to be good in the other. You can be a god-like player and still be horrible at grasping any game mechanics or understanding balancing. You can also be horribly bad at the game and still make pin-point exact conclusions on balancing. These things question for different skill sets.
So, no. A player with 1000 hours does not automatically give better insight then someone who mainly watches videos about the game. If this would hold truth every sports expert would have been a fantastic player and every good player would make a good sports expert. Reality shows us however this not being the case. To me it seems that people are afraid that the data doesn’t agree with their perception.

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Sure, all this is valid, which is why I mentioned that experienced players are only just more likely to be knowledgeable. On average, experienced players provide better and more “well researched” feedback than less experienced feedback, while casual players are significantly less likely to do the same. And again, I do want to mention that some things are objective, like C talent being 9/10 better than talent O, or weapon C being better than weapon K. The question generally then is by how much are they better, and what exactly should be changed.

… but you haven’t even seen this data or know what it entails.
Anyways, I definitely should be done by now. This always happens…

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Ok let’s take battle wizard as an obvious example.
Before dot’s applied to super armor she was broken, players told fs she was broken, yet they didn’t do anything. Then they added dot’s apply to superarmor, which made her even more broken, also made the players speak up. Then they, assuming, collected data for months seeing if the claims some players made were valid. After months they said ‘oh they are right’ so they decided to nerf her. So they took a look at their undisputable data and nerfed her, oops no, wrong nerf. I find it hard to believe fs would take ‘but it’s fun’ arguments over countless of objective arguments on why we think she was broken. Maybe it was because 100 players said she was fun and only 10 players said she was broken, which doesn’t make sense as those 10 players were right, why should numbers win over experience and objective facts provided by players playing the game and build at the highest possible level? If their tactic is waiting 6 months to make the public outrage less severe then that’s bad. Also WoM btw they didn’t wait on releasing even tho the public outcry was bad.

You are getting stuck on specific QoL examples, ofcourse the higher the encouter rate the better the fix would be, yes a ‘upgrade to max level’ button on the athenor would only benefit x amount of players, but something like never rerolling the same stat twice helps alot of players. Making something toggable is not the same as having a mod. New players don’t check out mods first thing, i still see people that don’t know certain mods exist. But yes for veterans difference between a mod and toggle option is very small. Another reason is stability, mods can be, and will be unstable. ‘my game is crashing’ post here, another one there, checking which mod makes my game crash after every update.

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Yes I agree. They should focus on quality - improve or fix existing aspects of the game. Like deeds (implementing the ‘deed exploit’ - allow us to customize our deeds), the tiresome chest opening mechanics (should have some sort of auto-open/salvage system), and improving weapons that have been superseded by other weapons e.g., Bardin dual axes, Sienna’s mace, etc.

EDITED: Forget about it.

I will be more than happy if FS just worked on performance improvement to make the player’s experience with the game more comfortable. Small changes are the best because they’re relatively faster to deliver and the game doesn’t feel abandoned. The funny thing is that even if they make that decision to put aside everything and focus on these changes, everything will go to the dogs with the next update.

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Dota-like games are a very interesting counterpoint on this side. For years, we have (and still have) some sort of invisible hero, where the obvious counterplay is to reveal him by buying some sort of a revealing item that cover a zone. In competitive, this hero is considered bad. By every competitive players.
Yet, all the newer players can’t actually do anything against it, and therefore makes the hero appears ultra powerful at lower levels.
Heroes of Newerth did have as a core focus, to balance the game around veterans players, the “elite”. Yet it crashed (hard), because a game so focused on elite will lose all new players. Where League of Legends which was accessible, and not competitively balanced, became what we know today thanks to the huge number of players it earned (and believe me, the beta was terribad).

There’s a balance to get between high level play and low level play. Something that “neutral” data will gives more than feedback forums (which should not be totally ignored though).

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