He is right though.
There is more sustained damage over the course of an entire map with Hagbane than with Moonfire, simply because there will be more ammo and therefore uptime, running Bloodfletcher on Shade and Quiver of Plenty on HM - though I also agree there is no ammo management on Moonfire and the direct damage is much stronger.
I’ve kind of derailed the topic from Sienna to a broader powercrept balance issue but I mean…
What’s the point in playing this game ? This is Cata QP on Hunger in the Dark just now…
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WS ans STT are a problem. They’re so popular only because you can trivialize mechanic with her and get high resulte with close to 0 effort.
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Even with the current state of power creep BW is top tier and UC is still really excellent at what she does. Only Pyro is getting heavily overshadowed by the new stuff, and even then she now has coruscation staff which makes her an absolute DPS monster. None of Sienna’s classes or weapons focus super heavily on special sniping, but even then volcanic force bolt staff has some of the most generous body shot breakpoints in the game, even messes up CWs real good.
Moonfire is too strong all round and javelins mostly just have too much cleave and too much stagger, otherwise they’re fine and lose out to a lot of weapons when it comes to straight special sniping, struggling to head shot kill things that the longbow can with no to minimal investment.
I don’t really think Sienna generally is in a bad spot at all, and there’s already a large thread on Pyro so won’t go into that one specifically.
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The point is to convince people to buy the dlc . It’s a fairly cringy pay-to-win dlc that isnt even hidden. Buy dlc = easy win.
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I could use that same argument for masterwork pistol but it doesnt mean the game doesnt suffer from it existing to any notably lesser degree. But indeed javelin needs a minor nerf or two while moonfire needs some careful tuning to a greater degree.
IMO out of all those the only really bad aspects of it is the CW interaction, having cleave and stagger for hordes that have lined up is what makes the weapon fun without being silly overpowered.
My bad, used it in the wastes a lot and didnt check beyond that.
Double javelin probably still does less damage than SoT raining critical javelins in there : P
Well what i wanted to state in the end is that Javelin is relatively not a top case of silly overpowered or broken in any particular way, the CW interaction is just about the only part of it that messes with the game a bit too much.
Moonfire meanwhile is a worse offender but feels like it should be fixable if changed to actually require power investments and maybe even enhanced power to do what it does even if to a slightly lesser degree.
Hagbane? Skill to use? I´d argue it takes more to get a good yield outa moonfire than it does hagbane for a waystalker, the latter bow has basically infinite ammo if you build for it while the former leaves you dry and missing a chunk of DPS if you miss any shots no matter what.
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How much CW damage does it do? Don’t know numbers but it feels like probably too much. As you said though, not too complex to tune down to a reasonable state.
I do not know the specific numbers but i know for certain that if you land 4 (5?) so half-charged headshots then it actually drops a warrior with certainty. That aspect of it i am not sure is all that bad considering longbow can do something similar.
me with 400+h on sienna…
hum… i just delete every ones dmg dealt and can bump chaos warrior with flamme sword to much easily. That’s why i stop playing her cause the game feel too “easy” even in cata+ difficulties.
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SoT might still need some nerfing (or just the removal of the crit talent on ult; cool concept, but just so strong), and I think there are a handful of over-performing weapons right now, but otherwise I don’t think we’re in too bad a shape, balance-wise.
Reduce the cleave slightly on Javelin; stagger might be okay since you can only control one Chaos Warrior by contintually throwing into his head, after all. The current damage seems great, to me, it feels like I’m throwing a javelin, which should hit like a truck.
Nerf Moonfire Bow; either give it a slower recharge, or lessen the DoT, especially on uncharged/low-charge attacks. The thing needs to be able to kill specials to be viable, the number of shots you can get off is just too low to be viable otherwise. But it should require either a headshot on a light or a fully-charged shot + DoT to get the kill.
MWP also probably needs a nerf; it doesn’t seem like it should one-shot Stormvermin on Cata on a bodyshot. Or, if it does, perhaps make the drop-off in damage more severe. I think even if it took two bodyshots to kill, but the first shot could stagger, that would give it a very viable niche, but keep it from being bonkers.
I get BW is strong in cata+ but that’s really down to one talent - famished flames, and it only works because of the enemies’ high health. It’s useless in champion and below and average in legend. But that is just the nature of DoTs + aoe attacks and high health enemies.
Like I said, outside of famished flames fire sword, Sienna’s melee weapons are weak when compared to the other heroes’.
Also should we balance around cata+? I feel the vast majority of players play in legend and under.
Edit:
Still feel waystalker hagbane, sott and any Kerillian career + moonfire outshines anything Sienna does, regardless of diff.
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To be fair, Volcanic is also extremely good, but you’re right it doesn’t shine until Cata and up. I disagree moonbow builds outdo Famished flames by much even on Legend, but I do think pretty much everything you listed needs to be tuned down somewhat.
I would have to agree with you, I pick elf now to use a regular bow and play with the team. I’ve been on the other side feeling like i’m on a safari ride with the elf tour guide LITERALLY killing everything.
The absolute worst, for me, is when you finally get a chance to attack an elite, you’ve been itching for the first hit and now’s your chance, Only for the SoTH elf uses her pickup ability thingy RIGHT before you do a charged melee attack, causing you to miss the headshot or flat out miss in general.
ugh…
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I gotta give OP sympathy. Moonbow’s 1 charged attack + 12 tics of DoT is hard to compete with. Beam has its purpose, but people running off-meta stuff like famished+fireball have incredibly steep competition against a Waystalker with moon+bloodshot.
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I think it’s more than just moonfire being strong. It’s the whole Kerillian package.
Moonfire does all the things Sienna does and then add on top of that Kerillians melee weapons are just leagues above Siennas.
Then to add more there is SotT… even if they just completely remove Radiant Inheritance she is still way ahead of even BW Sienna in my opinion.
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I get what you’re saying, though I do think moonbow itself is the biggest offender here. BW’s lack of options aside, flame sword + Famished + THP on stagger is extremely strong as melee goes.
The things I specifically find insulting to Sienna are the Moonbow’s very generous energy system, and Deepwood Staff’s comparative lack of heat/overheat punishment.
I definitely don’t think I agree even SotT outperforms meta BW builds. Hagbane WS is pretty obnoxious, and I haven’t played SotT extensively since the Radiant nerf so hard for me to place where she sits currently. Her kit is very good but it’s hard for me to see how it could do better than famished BW. Better at special and CW killing probably, but SotT ought to get out DPSd pretty hard on everything else.
Unless we’re talking about Champ or below, where lack of density could see SotT killing most things before BW gets to them. I dunno how to talk about that though because most of this stuff is already pretty overpowered for Legend, so at Champ or below I can only assume everything is getting one shot by basically everything so I have no idea how you balance that.
I agree there’s a number of overtuned things about the elf, I just can’t agree that BW at least isn’t also an extremely overperforming class.
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I honestly don’t get those topics as they play totally different depending on the build. Unless you specifically go and compare sniping builds (which is fine) they can play very different roles. Horde clearing is way easier in most builds for Sienna compared to pretty much any Kerillian build.
Sniping elites and specials, sure that is more of a Kerillian job, and even with the bolt staff, Kerillian now has better options (Moonfire Bow & Javelin). Both come with some downsides and upsides. Javelin seems a bit strong on elites, though I guess part of that is making headshots.
Now I am not sure about SotT builds, cannot judge that properly just yet, but generally the new classes have been very strong, so her topping the scoreboard isn’t that weird. Ults are generally very strong so I am not sure I would consider hers OP (the small Thorn bush that wrecks anything). Other than that the most OP skill already had a nerf.
But honestly I feel BW still competes for strongest class, and can go toe-to-toe with any Kerillian class.
That aside, Pyromancer needs a small revamp for more options, and a better feeling. That ult is annoying and the underwhelming variant of Kerillian WS ult. In that regard she is the less suitable sniper option compared to Kerillian her sniper option.
Though in general I feel some careers really just have a 1 way to play kind of talent tree.
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Firesword and flail are both, depending on career/build, easily competing with or outright beating any of keri´s weapons.
What difficulty are we talking here? It´s beyond all kinds of wrong for cata and above, like that tier list that poped up on reddit stating zealot as the strongest in the game…below cata? I aint jumping into a balance talk about there, that´s a deep hole.
Why would you ever use javelin for sniping elites mainly? It has way worse range, accuracy and even damage than longbow. If i do not recall incorrectly you even need like 20% power vs armor to kill a stormvermin on a headshot which is default with no investments on LB.
The only departments it beats longbow in are boss damage and horde clear i think?. …And that silly CW stagger.
Ah, a noob serf! Servants, chase him away with dirty rags 
I play twice the time in a day.
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or a crank, something similar to OE’s gatling