What if we had VT2 crafting in DT?

Reading some other crafting topic I though yet again “geez, it’s ridiculous how much harder - essentially impossible - it is to get good items in DT compared to VT2”. And then I though “OK, but how hard EXACTLY would it be to get good items if we had VT2’s crafting system in DT?”. So I decided to check!

TLDR:
Assuming we had VT2 crafting in DT (without locks) getting a desired item would cost you:
Best-case scenario: 83600 dockets, 3130 plasteel and 1505 diamantine
Average scenario: 186560 dockets, 5650 plasteel and 2945 diamantine
Worst-case scenario: 738000 dockets, 18565 plasteel and 10705 diamantine
AND at no point the item would become permanently “bricked”.

Thread question: would you take the above odds - including the cost of worst-case scenario - over current crafting system?

VT2 CRAFTING:
Here’s my methodology: I rolled base items until I got 20 (twenty) max-power (300) items. Then I rolled until I got 20x the desired Trait (Swift Slaying), and then rolled until I got 20x the desired Properties combo (Attack Speed & Crit Chance). I think that 20 of each is big enough test sample to give us a decent idea about the odds. I ignore upgrading here because it’s linear in both titles and therefore beside the point here.

1. POWER:
Shortest “good luck” streak: 1 (and that was the case in 70% of the cases, i.e. 14 times I got the max-power item on first try)
Average streak: 1.6 rolls for max rating item
Longest “bad luck” streak: 5 (happened once)

2. TRAIT:
Shortest “good luck” streak: 3 (happened 4 times)
Average streak: 5 rolls for the desired trait
Longest “bad luck” streak: 8 (happened 4 times, 9 times a roll above 5 happened)

3. PROPERTIES COMBO:
Shortest “good luck” streak: 2 (happened twice)
Average streak: 14 rolls for desired Properties combo
Longest “bad luck” streak: 29 rolls (happened once, 6 times roll above 20 happened)

The above also means that if you start out with a red item (guaranteed perfect roll, and you can gradually grind for a red by scrapping unwanted reds) you need an average of 14 rolls for an objectively PERFECT item.

(THEORETICAL) DT CRAFTING:
Now I’m going to make a couple of assumptions and simplifications e.g.:

  • I’m not factoring in various number of Traits/Blessings available for different items, which affects the odds of getting the one you want;
  • assuming all Blessings are available from the start and have only 1 level
  • the highest rating Profane item I have available RN is 378, slightly affecting Hadron prices
    in order to see what it would cost us to get a DESIRED (not “perfect”) item in DT, if we had the same system and comparable odds as in VT2 - importantly WITHOUT locks.

Methodology: applying the above “streaks” from VT2 and current DT prices for buying, consecrating and swapping top-tier Perks and Blessings:

4. POWER:
At least 11600 dockets
On average 18560 dockets for a 380 item
At most 58000 dockets

5. UPGRADING:
1450 plasteel, 425 diamantine to get from Profane to Transcendent

For the cost of rolling Perks and Blessings I calculate 3 possible pricing variants:
A. We roll for each separately, paying current top-tier Perk/Blessing swap price (odds from VT2 Trait)
B. We roll for both at the same time, paying current price (odds from VT2 Properties)
C. We roll for both at the same time, paying double price (odds from VT2 Properties)
Prices are given in dockets/plasteel/diamantine format

6. PERKS:
A. roll price 4000/200/100 times 2
At least 24000/1200/600
On average 40000/6000/1000 for 2 desired Perks rolled for separately
At most 64000/3200/1600

B. roll price 4000/200/100
At least 8000/400/200
On average 56000/2800/1400 for a desired Perk combo rolled for together
At most 116000/5800/2900

C. roll price 8000/200/100
At least 16000/800/400
On average 112000/5600/2800 for a desired Perk combo rolled together
At most 232000/11600/5800

7. BLESSINGS:
A. roll price 8000/100/80 times 2
At least 48000/600/480
On average 80000/1000/800 for 2 desired blessings rolled for separately
At most 128000/1600/1280

B. roll price 8000/100/80
At least 16000/200/160
On average 11200/1400/1120 for a desired Blessings combo rolled together
At most 224000/2800/2240

C. roll price 16000/200/160
At least 32000/400/320
On average 224000/2800/2240 for a desired Blessings combo rolled together
At most 448000/5600/4480

How does all of the above sum up?
Best-case scenario A, getting the item you want will cost you 83600 dockets, 3130 plasteel and 1505 diamantine
Average scenario B, getting the item you want will cost you 186560 dockets, 5650 plasteel and 2945 diamantine
Worst-case scenario C, getting the item you want will cost you 738000 dockets, 18565 plasteel and 10705 diamantine

I’d happily take those odds/cost rather than the current DT crafting. Would you?

P.S. If you really got all the way down here: thank you for reading my blog! :upside_down_face:

7 Likes

Absolutely would prefer VT2 system.

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I can guarantee you both you don’t want VT2’s system.
What you want is the part of VT2’s system that got introduced waaaaayyyyyyy later, which allows you to SKIP VT2’s system.

VT2’s system at launch was Emperor’s Blessings x3. And you cannot exchange a single perk but reroll the whole thing.
I have no idea what you think is favorable about that. Most importantly: The only reason it’s easy to “roll good items” in VT2 is that there is exactly ONE good Blessing. All the others have been demolished into uselessness.

I wouldn’t even call it so much a system at this point, rather than a short process of getting the usual fanfare and that’s it. There is no choice or thinking involved.
Get your Swift Slaying. Get your Power against. And that’s it.
Yes, getting 1 out of 6 Blessings is much easier than 2 you desire out of 6-12 or so. Still…

I do not want VT2’s system in this game. But I want the red items to finally be introduced, I’m with you on that.

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DT needs athanor system from V2 Weaves dlc

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Why are you even bringing up what used to be years ago, mate? I only referenced the current system, so it has nothing to do with my post. You’re essentially going off-topic right off the bat.
And I’m pretty sure I DO know what I want, thank you very much :slight_smile: I’m not saying VT2 system is great, bu for me it would be preferable to the current DT’s one.

The quality of blessings/perks has no bearing on the odds of getting any particular thing. I picked what I picked for convenience (that’s what I go with usually, so I spot it instantly). Again, what you are saying is besides the point.

Perfectly valid opinion mate, cheers! :slight_smile:

Yeah, pretty much the one good thing that came with that DLC (I don’t count Cata because cutting it out of the base game was an aberration that I do not acknowledge). And come to think of it, the devs could just as easily copy-paste that one into DT as well ^^

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I’m bringing it up because you cannot decouple the late stage from the early stage in this instance.
The late addition was the possibility of skipping or rerouting the system.
The core system is lootboxes and randomized Perk Replacing.
If you tell Fatshark you liked VT2 system, this is essentially what they will take from it as message. Or so I assume at least. I know, can’t write assumption without ‘ass’. But I’m going by the full experience.



It really isn’t when you think more deeply about it.
When a system has only one good option and otherwise mostly noobtraps, the only task for you is to roll the one good option. It becomes more simple, a binary yes or no choice.

Thing is the one thing? → Good.
Thing is not the one thing? → Bad, reroll.

And the lack of depth also means that you get your desired option later. Getting 1 out of 6 right is much easier than 2 out of +10.
This matters, because it means that not the system is good or bad. It’s that VT2’s lacking amount of options make the system workable, even if it’s bad.
And what I probably haven’t been expressing right but really want to say:
VT2’s System is really bad.
And DT’s core system is also not good.

All the additions to both, VT2 and DT, were alleviations of the originally bad parts of the system.
VT2 → You don’t need gamble boxes anymore, you can now craft the thing you want, you only need to get one right, you can store so many resources it doesn’t matter how many you get wrong, red items have maximized rolls
DT → You can now reroll Perks / Blessing a tiny bit more freely, you can craft the core item you need (albeit still randomly generated stats)

This does matter, because the final result is that it does not really have much of an impact which system Darktide uses. Both systems here would be bad.
You can eternally roll the dice on loot boxes and both Perks / Blessings being replaced.
Or you can eternally watch as Hadron trashes your godrolls into the garbage bin.

You’re screwed either way, up until they release that one golden ticket to ignore the system. Which is red items. Oh and Plasteel crafting / recycling from items or some such.

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I would just prefer to buff Brunt to make weapons at 370+ more often.

Do we go back to the system of having to roll both traits at once ? And having to reroll everything ?

VT2’s system is worse than Darktide, you just don’t notice it for 1 reason, there are way less traits (8 traits) and blessings (6 blessings)

If we went by VT2’s system, with DT’s Blessings, you’d have to reroll all blessings at once, and get a random combination.
Even generously assuming maximum blessing levels, that’d at least mean you’d have to conduct your VT2 test by rolling the trait twice, and only if it’s the desired option both times in a row does it count. Obviously, that’s only true if the respective darktide weapon has just 6 or 7 blessings.

I’d pretty much prefer any system that allows me to get the weapon I want, with the stats I want even if it takes weeks to grind for it.

With DT you will likeley never get what you want and either give up or accept a worse compromise.

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From my point of view you come to a thread discussing “what if Mercedes 2023 had something from Mazda 2023 in it” to say “no you don’t want Mazda 2023 thing because it was much worse in Mazda 2018”. And then imply that the devs would see it exactly same way.
It only makes sense if you assume FS to be acting in bad faith and go out of their way to misconstrue what is being said here, and that is frankly funny hat territory for me.

You are thinking TOO deeply, or rather too sideways about it.
You’re essentially talking about different thing than OP does. OP talks about probability/odds. The ODDS of getting a particular thing or combo of things have NOTHING to do with their quality, or comparative quality with all the other possible things/combos. Please, it’s simple math. Don’t mix up things that have no business being mixed together.

And then you go on to talk about locks, after I have clearly stated that the whole thing is calculated with the important assumption of there being no locks. Not that I’m here to argue with you, but even if I wanted to I can’t because you are talking about something else entirely.

Except that the whole point of me bothering with the math in the first place is to show that it would not be “eternal” :joy: It would be, on statistical average, between 6 and 32 rolls. Quite a large gap there, but hardly “eternal”.
While in current system it can indeed be endless, because you are being actively stopped from rolling the dice enough times to eventually succeed. That’s why I find the VT2 system preferable.

Personally I don’t want them to remove the locks only on reds, I want them to get rig of the damn thing alltogether. But hey, I’ll probably take what I’m given if it does happen. Also +1 for resources exchange.

No, the reason for which DT system is worse (for me) it because I am arbitrarily prohibited from trying again on the same item. In VT2 once you get a particular property of the item right you are free to re-roll the other properties until you get what you want. It’s a clear progression. You can keep on pulling the lever and are not punished for failing in other way than time and resources. In DT you still have to pull the lever, but have a limit on the pulls, and can get irreversibly screwed at every step of the way.
It has nothing to do with the number or quality of options, the system is simply rigged against you.

That’s exactly what happens with Properties in VT2, and that’s why I took that streak for options B and C. Please read the entire OP.
As far as the bare numbers are concerned: I tested VT2 crafting on Melee Weapon which can have 8x8 = 64 combinations. Weapons in DT can have between 4 (16 combinations) and 10 (100 combinations) blessings. I call it close enough for the purpose, especially since I said upfront

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You’re telling me that the worst streak on double-rolling traits you got was 8?
I find that improbable.
Given DTs items with double blessings, rerolling both at once, which is would assume is what we’d do with a “VT2” system, in which you couldn’t reroll individual perks, either, 1/6 * 1/6 would indicate a bad luck streak closer to 50 than 10.
Unless you’d assume they’d let us reroll each blessing individually, AND only at max power, which I don’t believe for a second.

Seriously man, if you want to argue then read the whole OP. Because yes that’s exactly an assumption I have stated to have made, and repeating myself is little fun.
Actually I have made 3 separate assumptions and outlined them as A, B and C. It’s all in the OP.

Nope, I stated the worst one for that to be 29.
I don’t want to be mean and I understand that I’ve made a LONG post, but again: if you want to argue with me PLEASE read - with comprehension - what you are doubting/arguing. Thank you :slight_smile:

P.S. (edit)
Before we go into a debate about odds, probability and how statistics is the greatest lie of all let me be the first to point out that the way probability works NO amount of manual “testing” any of us can do will give any definite answer hear. At least not without knowing how EXACTLY the rolls are being coded.
I personally think that FS implemented some kind of player-biased algorithm, because there is NOTHING stopping you from rolling the dice a 100 times and not getting the desired combo a single time. Just like nothing stops you from flipping a coin and getting heads 50 times in a row.

I did the whole “testing” and extrapolation from it as a sort of fun theorycrafting exercise that would give a reasonable approximation for the purpose of arguing the “thread question”. I am well-aware that the math is off in places, but since we ARE arguing I guess it worked out ok in the end :wink:

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Rerolling properties for breakpoints and always using the same blessing because every other one is obviously inferior wasn’t really my favorite system in the world either.

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Well okay, maybe I did go a bit off the handle. I respect your explanation and response.

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I’m not an expert on VT 2 or how it’s crafting systen really worked. However, and I’ve said this before, I would much rather have to spend an excessive amount of resources and be guranteed a weapon I want than having to throw away resources and “waste” them, without ever knowing if I’ll get what I want.

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It wasn’t prefect, but it was a damn better than this joke we call crafting. Everyone was confused by the decision to not just use a system they themselves already used and tweaked to the (mostly) satisfaction of VT2 players.

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I would take a resource sink (that is what we have anyway) with a guaranteed end outcome with a still perfectly usable weapon even while I am working on it over the current “will it brick” gameshow of a system we currently call a crafting system.

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Well, that is the issue with any game, players will optimize the fun out it.
Especially blessings can make or break a weapon’s viability.
Deep Rock Galatic’s “Blessings” (overclocks) work better because they come in three flavors:

  • Clean, no downside, but only small upsides and stat gains.
  • Balanced, good upsides, but also some downsides, usually greater stat gains and some minor stat loss.
  • Unstable, HUGE upside/downside AND/OR completely changes how the weapon works into doing new crazy playstyles.

So even an unstable overclock might not be the best/most viable, but hey! you just turned your grenade launcher into mini-nuke launcher.
So it pleases all kind of players/moods, those who just wanna sweaty min/max with little gains, those who wanna gauge the upside and downside of stat loss/gains and finally those who like to meme a little and have fun.
And ofc most importantly, most overclocks are viable, even the crazy ones, so that helps a lot.

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Some specific OC’s are way better than other options, but I don’t think anyone’s going to argue with you that DRG doesn’t have a way funner “crafting” system than this.

Well, I guess it is more “fun” because even without overclocks every weapon have nice “talent tree” that can be customized at any point + every weapon is basically made to be able to beat Haz 5 (even Elite Deep Dives Haz 5) without an overclock.
I don’t feel the that is true for a lot of weapons in Darktide sadly.
inb4 someone gonna come and tell me they run Damnation with only 320 grey weapons.

1 Like