The legend difficulty endings of these maps were supposed to be tuned in the latest patch, weren´t they? I know they did change them in the beta, but apparently, rolled most or all of the changes back. The thing is, these finales are still really out of the line when compared to other map events and when compared to what comes before on the same map. Wouldnt it be sensible to have these events brought in line? They still overshadow the actual bossfights in terms of difficulty, which should be the highlight of the story, and it seems pretty arbitrary that these two map events kick so much ass on legend while others dont.
PS: I think it´s the same with Dark Omens, but I hardly played that one since the patch, so I cannot tell.
Both of these events were toned down, in fact. Before the .15 patch/the beta they were nigh impossible to complete without exploits, now they’re intense as they should be, but very much winnable. Fort in particular had to be tuned back UP a little bit because it was too easy in the beta, and now it’s balanced. Convocation I don’t think had to get any adjustments done from the beta? It was toned down, the toning down was solid, and now it’s winnable yet intense. As it should be.
I don’t think they need further tuning at all.
As for boss fights, those have always been really tough to balance, in general. I’d like to say they need a buff? At least, Bodvarr and Halescourge might. Specially Bodvarr. But I don’t know, I haven’t run into them often enough to tell.
I think they´ve been nerfed a little, i only got a single packmaster/assasssin during a very long run of the fort event whereas i used to have 1 of both spawn with every wave+flamerat+gunrat, the latter two still spawn fairly often though.
Along with the monks and stormvermin of course, their spawnrate is back to being high and hard to deal with x)
Really i had my entire team just drop dead when 6 of them and another 6 stormvermin ran up behind a horde, i only got out because i was playing handmaiden and could dash off a ledge before proceeding to murder things as they came down.
However it might really be a bit too much to have disabling specials spawn at all during that event…gunners and firerats are fine as they are slow enough but a assassin often gives almost no warning while a packmaster can be impossible to spot if it rides a horde.
And with hordes happening nonstop there it kinda becomes more frustrating and tilting to deal with more than anything else.
Totally agree. These events are a little bit easier than pre-patch… but they still are much harder than the other ones. Specially Convo and Engines (the final one I mean, while you wait the boat).
Final events must be balance, because they are chosen in a random way and because they have the same reward.
Ok being a pedant, the Lord fights can be laughably easy. Spinemanglr being a good example of Shrapnel+ BH ult to the face a couple of times is such an easy win its stupid. Didn’t even mention shade giving a little prod.
Bosses - definitely when I’m in a fairly regular crew - can be a bit of a location-specific problem. Getting them in simply the wrong place often causes a wipe rather than the boss actually killing us as specials have a more fundamental effect on the fight if you’re stuck somewhere narrow with a storm or getting cornered by a horde in a tight space kills you rather than the boss. Getting a boss at the opening of Empire in Flames or the boss (opening the barn door) can be a comedy experience when they get demolished so fast.
As for the endings, some of it is location specific too. Convocation can get hard purely due to the RNG special spawns, as stormers and gas rats can cause absolute havoc, whereas a flame rat or two leisurely hopping up to the circle and getting an exe sword to the face can be easier to deal with.
I think the Fort is just right, and Convocation needs the [sentence redacted by the Inquisition =I=] fixed abd poossibly the makeup of the special spawns to not have quite so much area-effect specials spawn. Most of my wipes are poison+storms+someshitbag hookrat.
I´m not neccesarily asking to tune down these events, but I AM asking for consistency. If Fatshark thinks these events are how it should be for legend, then bring the other events up to par. If they think these events are harder than they should be, bring them down. I just dont want randomness in my legend (and someday cata) games where I think “Yeah this group can do Halescourge, but probably not Brachsenbrücke”. I want my success to depend on the group and not the map we play. I want a fair chance to predict whether a group is ready for legend or not, and not have to say “You´re fine for most maps, but not these random middle of the road ones”.
It would also be nice of the map that comes before reflected the difficulty of the ending. You can breeze through Fort and Convocation often enough, just to get totally destroyed at the ending, which can feel like wasting 20 minutes. I´m not saying that those finales cant escalate the difficulty, but it should not be THAT steep. Most maps do that fairly well, but I cant say that these do.
On a side note, I strangely never had that much trouble with the ending of Engines of War. The group wipes, for the most part, came from the barrel-to-doomwheel event, which shares some traits with the other two: Big open areas where elites and specials constantly spawn from every direction and hardly any cover. Convocation is the worst offender here, as you are forced to stand in a central position with hardly any room to maneuver due to the sludge, while it´s actually the enemies that get fair bit of cover to close the distance or throw gas and warpfire at you.
Brachsenbrücke and Engines/Doomwheel have a bite more terrain to help funnel enemies, but add additional difficulty by requiring the group to move towards an objective rather than defend static position. Grabbing the cannonball is usually where the groups get bogged down by endless elites, unless someone can grab a close-by spawned cannon ball and use an ult to skip the ladders. Engines boat ending has various houses you can hole up into, which helps tremendously with the defence, and the fact that enemies dont spawn on the river side.
Iʻve actually seen that before, to which i replied: well that was fast.
Back to the post though. If itʻs anything like WOM release fort bracksenbrucke then itʻs pretty ridiculous. I remember non-stop plague monks spawning in, around 4 at a time. Once you kill those 4 another 4 spawn off in the distance. It was hell, cause those things are very hard to deal with, especially when trying to lug a cannonball around.
However, as far as fort goes, taking it slow can lead to great results. My successful legend runs during WOM release happened to be when weʻd drop the ball and kill specials/elites when they got close, then move up instead of trying to race to the cannonball/cannon
It depends. Taking it slow can work, but it can also mean that you eventually run out of ammo and HP to spare when constantly throwing back packs of Sotmvermin and Plague Monks plus ratling and gas specials. And when one person goes down that is often the domino that triggers the demise of the party. The spawns are pretty relentless and they dont ease up while the event is going.
However, this topic is less about how to beat Brachsenbrücke & Co. and more about how it supposedly fits into the difficulty curve. To which I say, it doesnt; it´s a pretty big difficulty spike and it should be smoothed out (either by tuning the event down or by bringing up the rest of the maps overall).
I think the end events need to be toned down as they shouldn’t be a huge difficulty spike compared to the rest of the level. Since they have objectives to be completed, there should be more time in between groups of enemies to make progress towards said objective or stabilize a bit. Let the relentless waves occur in cata and higher, where teamwork is more necessary for success and not where most people play pubs (legend or lower.)
Now, that’s a point worthwhile stressing. I’d say Convo and FB are the only end events, including Lord fights, that are in a fairly good spot and every other is just subpar. Let’s give it a rundown - but keep in mind that I only play Cataclysm and I have no idea how things scale down for Legend.
LORD FIGHTS
Halescourge: The length of the fight is the issue here. Bubblebutt has too many HP, which makes the fight boring, annoying even, considering that there’s not much going on. Spawned adds are trash with some Maulers or Zerkers (or sometimes CWs, not sure rn). You kill the adds which takes some time depending on team composition/player skill and go back to dealing damage to the Lord. Him teleporting around/out of reach prolongates the fight considerably up to the point where you’d think Gods, when is this over already! Bubblebutt’s abilities are no real threat, damage is negligible and his flies usually disappear the moment when someone’s standing underneath him because flies can’t travel through objects. All of this, add spawns, Lord behavior (teleporting much), Lord abilities, needs a rework.
Into the Nest: People in this thread already touched on this fight. It’s flat out easy mostly because of Skarrik’s phase in which he doesn’t move at all. That’s just a no-go in Lord fight design. Him standing still for too long was fixed some time back but it’s still there and should be removed entirely. Add spawns are trash and a few SVs. In 2018, this fight featured Zerkers on top of that from several angles. We should bring them back.
War Camp: The least boring Lord fight at the moment because it spawns a decent amount of CWs as adds, Bödvarr is fairly aggressive and fully armored. But he still has his dropdown phase during which you get free damage because of stagger shenanigans even though this was heavily nerfed some time ago. He also has his summoning phase in which he stands still which has to go - same offender as with Skarrik. His knockback AoE, though, is interesting as it protects him from melee damage and throws people around. You have to play around it, it’s fun.
Gatekeeper Naglfahr: Does anyone even bother mentioning this guy? I know it’s not supposed to be a Lord fight but it’s the most boring Lord-like arena fight in the game. No adds, long transformation phase which means free damage and no unique abilities. He’s basically a one-shot waiting to happen.
Skittergate: Feels like this fight is in a weird place. The add waves vary between trash plus Zerkers, SVs or shielded clanrats. Also, the common exploit is still in the game which lets you cancel some of the waves as long as Deathrattler is alive. The moment Deathrattler dies (Deathrattler is quite entertaining to fight against) the rest of the fight gets boring because of Rasknitt’s teleporting behavior. You’re chasing him around to do some chip damage all the time (even when you only alternate between two corners) and the add waves don’t change much about it because they’re rather spread out and quickly dealt with.
SNOOZE MAPS
Hunger in the Dark: Always features a monster fight - which is a good thing. Specials have been added to the last section leading to the feeding trough, good. But after the Zerker wave nothing happens anymore. Some late specials might trickle in but it’s usually only the Troll left to fight. At least have some trash spawn constantly behind or something.
Against the Grain: Now, that’s special because it’s something different. The chase for the cages keeps you moving throughout the event - great. Some specials have been added, also great (some more?). But it still lacks excitement or that feeling of Oof. It’s essentially a tunnel of mobs you slash through from start to finish. Usually, you don’t get distracted. I’d like to see a monster spawn after you open the first 5 cages. And yeah, I know, there’s already a fixed monster spawn before on the map but be honest, it’s a joke because you can choose when to fight it. It’s a one-shot kinda thing.
Empire in Flames: The barrels are a nice mechanic as they demand some moving and coordination (no need for another Black Powder, though!). But usually, I bring at least two barrels with me from the 2nd grim area to the event, so spreading out and collecting barrels doesn’t really happen. Maybe remove the fixed barrel spawns around that grim area (they also make the Powder Monkey challenge a joke btw). Specials have been added, good. Could need some more area denying specials like Globadiers or Stormers to mix things up when you move the cart. Maybe even reduce the moving speed of the cart depending on difficulty. After you light the cart, sometimes (?) a wave of CWs spawns chasing you down to the manor and into the SVs - when this happens it’s exciting even though the number of CWs was tuned down I believe. If this Chaos wave doesn’t spawn it’s meh.
QUITE OKAY
Righteous Stand: Features two classic holdout events, both are quite fun even though they were tuned down (or maybe Fatshark just fixed the special spawns being all over the place). In the temple, the timing of waves and special spawns is pretty good. There’s always something happening which you have to look out for - and the best thing: there’s a monster spawn. This is when it gets really entertaining, you have to move, look out for specials, kill varying trash with SVs, Bulwarks and Zerkers, and you have a lot of space to do so. The CW spawn wave is kinda lacking, though, could need some more armor boys. I actually like this one.
Athel Yenlui: The location makes it interesting: an arena which gets flooded with waves and specials spawn on high ground (even though map geometry can be heavily abused here to kite almost everything forever). Wave composition is kinda lacking. There are some SVs (and Zerkers) - and that’s it. Could also need more area denying specials like Globadiers and Stormers so that you have to go out of your way. Fun part is when all leylines are lined up because this spawns a large wave of trash and SVs. Sadly, you can kite them for a couple of seconds only to have them all die to the crystal, meh.
Festering Ground: Theme: not much space to work with which results in great enemy density. Waves consist of trash with SVs, Zerkers or Maulers, quite okay to deal with. Not that many specials, should be more. Buboe’s puddle damage is negligible, make it actually hurt to spice things up and to force people to play around it. Currently, it’s just: pop them all real quick and move on, it doesn’t matter if you walk through one of them. What about a monster spawn after you popped the last set of buboes and have that monster chase you up and out of the event area to the portal? I already like the alternating way patterns but if this escape can be made to feel rushed and hurried, it’d be great.
Screaming Bell: Interesting arena with a lot of ups and downs and an objective that forces you to move around. Before the current patch, I felt that it was in a pretty good place. The constant spawn waves of trash with SVs were great. Now, there’s always a moment when adds stop spawning (guess when you break the last set of chains) and it’s only the Roger left. Keep at least some spawns active so that you get distracted from nuking the ogre (or throwing it off the edge).
I can’t bother getting to the DLC maps in detail right now.
Bögenhafen: Pit needs to get the safe spots fixed already, everyone’s just standing up there and looking at stuff; Blightreaper got tuned up but is still lacking, could use a monster fight somewhere or way more specials.
Back to Ubersreik: events are pretty much okay.
Dark Omes: is a joke; no specials (those non-moving banner guys don’t count), a monster that you don’t have to kill, and no variety in elites because only Beastmen.
The problem with balancing bossfights is in the different difficulty they pose based on group composition. A team of Shade / Bounty Hunter / Huntsman / or whatever can kill them in a matter of seconds, while a team of, say, an Ironbreaker, Mercenary, Handmaiden, and Unchained needs more time and effort. If you balance bosses for the first type of groups they become disproportionally difficult for the second type of groups, resulting in more or less forced group compositions, which would be lame.
I said nigh impossible, it was definitely doable without the death exploit but insanely hard when doing a full book run. You pretty much needed a bounty hunter for the chaos warriors and a waystalker for the specials. It was just a LOT of stuff coming at you, insanely more difficult than any other finale in the game pre 2.15
The absolute number of stormvermin and plague monks that got thrown our way on Fort Brachsenbrucke was ridiculous in legend. On champion it doesn’t seem near as much of a problem, and every other ending event totally pales in comparison by this difficulty spike. Should have more control at the flow of what gets thrown at you based around when you fire the cannon. So if you rush it then more gets thrown at you quicker, or you can pace it out more (like Garden of Morr when destroying the chains).
I’ve always thought the static cannon was the problem. It’d be better to have three cannons, one mounted where the bonfire was, one where it is now and one up another tower somewhere and the players need to move from one to the other. Fighting your way along the battlements and storming a tower seems more fun than lugging a ball around. You could trigger spawns to match which cannon got fired. FS also missed an opportunity to have a Lord of the Rings style Aragorn and Gimli defending the gate at Helms deep. Defending the gate while a portcullis was raised would be brilliant.
If you are playing as a group of elites killers, it’s normal to melt Lords… but, as trade off, you will suck against hordes. While, if you are playing as a group of crowd control/tank careers… don’t worry, Lords will not die in few seconds (it will be a very long and boring fight).
Moreover I would like remember to you all, guys, that if the game chooses (in a random way) a map from a pool of maps (wich have the same reward)… these maps must have the same difficulty too. Lords’ maps haven’t a better reward (you get more dices simply because you fight more bosses, but this is valid for every map). Otherwise we would have another “skippergate”. Do you remember when everyone skipped Skittergate? It was too long/hard, there wasn’t a better reward, so there wasn’t a reason to play it. “Challenge itself”, someone could say. I love to play only for challenge itself too… for this reason we have Fortunes of War, Cataclysm, deeds, twitch, mods like Cata3, weaves, etc etc. Legend is mostly used to farm. If an end player plays Legend, it’s just to farm. Exactly how an average player, wich plays Legend because he still has to beat the game, will hate a ridicolous spike of difficulty.
Currently maps are pretty balanced… we just have very few examples that must be tuned down a little bit. Like Convo or Engines (final part).
Atm Fort Brachenwurstel is a bad and offensive joke at legend. The rest of the map is feasible. At the end when you need to recover the cannonball the disablers-monks-SVs tag team means wipe unless you have a real perfect team.
Monks aren’t easily staggered and SVs reduce the cleave so they should be in alternate waves and not together, and less of them.
I agree that the difficulty spike once the cannonball spawns is pretty insane. However, I should also add that after failing that thing on legend about 5 times, actually beating it felt absolutely epic. I think this game should have some pretty difficult maps, or difficult finales like old bracksenbrucke. I only really say this because of how epic it felt to actually beat the finale for the first time on legend (post buff)