Veteran Talent Tree: Lost Identity and How to Fix It!

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
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This post is a compilation and organization of some of the best ideas on how to strengthen Veteran’s identity, bring back lost playstyles, and bring Veterans in line with other classes.

Foreword

This post could be considered a follow-up to my previous post Veteran Talent Tree: Problem Nodes and Hostile Design so I advise reading that first. Now I focus on solving the issue. In the mentioned thread (and elsewhere) I’ve seen numerous good ideas posted around, many of which haven’t been properly discussed, so here I present them in a more organized manner.

I’m playing exclusively on Auric difficulty and even missions without Shock Trooper’s Gauntlet I have only done for testing purposes recently. While on lower difficulties and low-intensity engagements, the problems I outlined might not be as apparent, or even present.

With the Balancing Team at Fatshark already working on additional changes to Veteran, this post might come too late. Still, I hope they’ll read this post and take inspiration.

Please note that this post doesn’t contain nicely placed images like the previous one so it might be a bit more dry to read. :wink:

Table of contents

Overview

Changes proposed here are focused on repositioning nodes, replacing current Capstones, tips for fixing some of the bad nodes, and frustrating interactions currently present in the tree, with the main goals of:

  1. Returning some of the Veteran’s lost identity.
  2. Bringing back lost playstyles.
  3. Bringing Veterans in line with other classes.

These changes however won’t fix every problem the Veteran suffers from, and won’t bring the Veteran’s Iconic Weapons (Plasma, Bolter, Power Sword) back from the horrible state that they are just by themselves.

So how do we go about it? Here are the main points:

  1. Remove one travel/small node from each end tree redistributing the bonuses elsewhere making it feel less taxing and increasing flexibility.

Currently, most of Tree feels like it taxes you a bunch of either useless or low-impact nodes to get to what you want. It is especially apparent in the seemingly elongated bottom parts of the tree.

I personally would love to see even 2 fewer travel/small nodes in each end branch (still leaving Veteran with the greatest number of travel nodes tied with Ogryn at 19 in total).

Removing just one would at least open up the possibility of obtaining 2 of the (spoilers) new capstones at once.

  1. Move various nodes granting toughness gain to the top (beginning) of the tree like on other classes.

With the toughness gain nodes all extremely far apart, some deep at the end of the tree Veteran’s survival is very questionable without Confirmed Kill, which is more-or-less a mandatory pick. This change would remedy the issue, bring Veterans in line with other classes, and wouldn’t force the player to go deep into the middle branch.

  1. Bake in current Capstones into their respective Combat Abilities.

Currently, most Veteran’s combat abilities feel like they are missing something, and those things are at the bottom of the tree. While Marksmen would probably work as an additional node choice for Executioner’s stance, For the Emperor! and Close Quarters Killzone should be just added to the base abilities.

This change would also make place for new capstones that aren’t just damage boost. Capstones that give a unique feel to each branch

  1. Add new Capstones at the end of the tree based on the Veteran’s identity.

Left to right.

Sustained Fire: Immediately reload and equip your ranged weapon on using your Combat Ability.

With additional changes outlined below this will strengthen the left side as a ranged-focused tree and bring back a lost playstyle beloved by many Veteran players. This would also allow mixing mainly ranged players with other Combat Abilities not just Executioner’s Stance.

Bio-Optic Targeting: Upon using Combat Ability outline all Elite and Specialist enemies for you and your allies for 10s.

A perfect fit for the Squad Leader this keystone would make the Iconic highlight ability available for all Combat Abilities for build that go all in on the middle tree, with additional synergies outlined further below.

Of course, now this Capstone Enhanced Target Priority should be removed/replaced from Executioner’s Stance.

Unwavering Focus: Upon using Combat Ability gain 50% Toughness damage reduction for 10s.

This would bring back the lost Unwavering Focus in a more balanced manner. With this capstone player splitting their points between the right and left sides would be able to play the close-ranged ranged weapon playstyle more easily, while players going for the middle and left sides will have a very powerful defensive node for their melee-heavy playstyle allowing them to survive more easily.

With this Capstone introduced Hunter’s Resolve should be removed/reworked so too much damage reduction can’t be stacked.

  1. Rework Fire Team into a new ability:

Marked for Death: +10% (or 15%) damage against Tagged enemies.

Stolen from Vermintide 2 Witch Hunter Captain this Aura would be a perfect fit for Squad Leader replacing an uninspired aura with something both thematical, strong, and something that would synergize with the whole middle path making it a very coherent strong identity with the additional changes outline below.

  1. Redistribute nodes around the tree (most notably Always Prepared and Detirmened) generally avoiding choices between 2 bad options.

As outlined in my previous post, the Veteran suffers greatly from choices between 2 bad nodes and crucial nodes being buried deep within the end of the tree.

Fixing the Left Side: From Precision to Ranged Focus!

Currently, the Left side of the tree is focused almost entirely on Precision Weaponry while locking the nodes more desired by all ranged focus Veterans near the tail end of the tree. I propose the following changes to make the left side of the tree feel less about Precision weapons and more generally about ranged combat, while also avoiding choices between 2 bad nodes.

  1. Move Always Prepared to a node before Survivalist and increase bonus from 25% to 40%, and move Determined to a node before Executioner Stance.

Always Prepared and Determined are both nodes that strengthen the Veteran’s Identity as a ranged-focused class and shouldn’t be locked away deep into the end of the tree. Their new position would be an enticing pick even for those that travel down the left side of the tree.

An increase to the Always Prepared node’s ammo boost from 25% to 40% would alleviate Bolter and Plasma users’ ammo issues on higher difficulties and allow for more shooting in general. With this change, more ammo-efficient weapons might be able to forgo the Survivalist aura for something equally beneficial. I would note here that this would probably make some weapons like the Braced Autoguns and the Autopistol able to unendingly shoot again which is either a good thing or needs adjustment depending on the developer’s stance on the matter.

  1. Split the end of the tree between bonuses to Precision/Headshots/ADS fire and boost to other weaponry. Add nodes that mainly boost Plasma Gun and Bolter.

Currently, the end of the left tree is mainly focused on Precision, this should change with a split between nodes like Precision Strike, Deadshot, and nodes that primarily boost non-precision weapons. There should be always a choice between boosting Precision or other weaponry.

Volley Adept is one such node that probably should go to the end of the tree, but there might be a few new nodes that need to be introduced. Any player wanting to boost their ranged output should want to travel down this road, and not just reach the new Capstone the reintroduced Sustained Fire.

  1. New Capstone: Sustained Fire: Immediately reload and equip your ranged weapon upon activating your Combat Ability.

As outlined in the Overview, Marksmen should be moved to Executioner’s Stance, and the now the old/new Sustained Fire will be very worth Capstone as a great reward for traveling down the Ranged focused left side. It’ll bring back a sorrowfully lost playstyle as well as restore some power to Bolter which is now woefully weak on Auric Missions.

  1. Remove, Mix together, or rework Catch a Breath and Killzone.

Outline in my previous post here: Veteran Talent Tree: Problem Nodes and Hostile Design, Catch a Breath/Kill Zone the 2 nodes are absolutely useless for players in high-difficulty and Auric Missions.

While they might be useful for Low-Intensity maps and/or low difficulties they take up too much space. I propose either Mixing them together in a single node or removing or reworking them.

  1. Add Big Game Hunter node to Executioner’s Stance.

Big Game Hunter: Executioner’s Stance now outlines Ogryns and Bosses. Increase damage by 25% against Ogryns and Bosses while Executioner’s Stance is active.

This new addition would allow the very much underperforming Plasma to once again chain Executioner’s Stance off killed Ogryns, while helping its now strangely low damage output against bosses. Also would work great for Bolter and any other weapon for making bosses fall faster.

  1. Give back 4th granade to Shredder Frag grenade!

Admittedly Shredder is currently carrying Veterans damage numbers very hard, especially on build not based on Helbore and Recon, but… Let Grenadier build be a bit more powerful if someone is willing to go all around the middle of the tree grabbing all the Granade talents!

It was very sad to see that the +1 grenade node (Grenadier) introduced is just something to get if you want to restore what we had before put very, very far away.

In connection to this interaction between Onslaught and Bleed should probably be removed.

  1. Take a second look at Shock Trooper.

Currently, this node singlehandedly makes Helbore the best-performing ranged weapon on Veteran, while together with Rending Strikes and Onslaught makes Recon lasgun a close second.

My problems with this node are outlined in my previous post and can be read here: First start with something going completely against what was written in the Deep Dive: Shock Trooper

  1. Maybe introduce a talent deep into the left side of the tree specifically boosting Bolter and Plasma Gun.

If the previously mentioned node Shock Trooper is considered a good node by the developers a similar node should be introduced to the now underperforming Heavy Weaponry.

While this could help boost Bolter and Plasma Gun on Veteran, I think Plasma Gun should receive an upward adjustment to the base weapon since the weapon is currently very, very weak on Auric Missions.

Fixing the Middle Lane: Tagging, Tagging, Tagging!

Combining a lot of ideas, it seems that introducing mechanics just around tagging would make the middle path one of the most cohesive lines and will fix the majority of the issues with frustrations. The changes would start with the replacement of the Aura:

  1. Replace Fire Team with Marked for Death: +10% (or 15%) damage against Tagged enemies.

Currently, any player including Voice of Command Veterans avoid Fire Team Aura like… Fire. This new Aura would be more enticing for Squad Leader Veterans with huge synergies with the other changes, for example:

  1. Fix Tactical Awareness and Confirmed Kill by making it also trigger on enemies tagged by the Veteran player dying (even if the kill was taken by someone else)

A lengthy description of the absolute frustration coming from allies taking kills from the Veteran relying heavily on these talents is outlined in my previous post here: Biggest Offenders, the Worst of the Best: Tactical Awareness & Confirmed Kill

This change (making Toughness Gain/Regeneration and Ability Cooldown Reduction trigger on allied kills on enemies tagged by you) would alleviate almost all of it, while also strengthening the identity of a Squad Leader as someone selecting the team’s priority targets.

  1. Add For the Emperor! into the base version of Voice of Command, Increase the stagger on Voice of Command. Remove downsides from Only in Death Does Duty End!

Currently compared to the closest Combat Ability in the game Chorus of Spiritual Fortitude, Voice of Command is a bit weak. While Zealot’s CoSF has a longer cooldown (60 seconds), Zealot’s strong, and reliable Cooldown Reduction Nodes make them almost identical in actuality. The changes proposed would make the 2 abilities closer in strength.

The proposed increased stagger should be big enough to stop an attacking Rager or to flinch an attacking Crusher, while removing downsides from Only in Death Does Duty End! would make it a worthy pick if points can’t be spent better elsewhere.

With the proposed changes Zealot’s CoSF would still have much better defensive capabilities while making VoC more offense orientated (which based on Voicelines is probably intended).

  1. Add new Capstone: Bio-Optic Targeting: Upon using Combat Ability outline all Elite and Specialist enemies for you and your allies for 10s.

Additionally: All allies consider enemies highlighted by Bio-Optic Targeting as Tagged dealing extra 10% (or 15%) extra damage from Marked for Death! Enemies highlighted by Bio-Optic Targeting should not be considered Tagged by the user for purposes of Tactical Awareness and Confirmed Kill.

This addition would make the new Aura: Marked for Death even more desirable making it very much worth it to go fully down the middle path. The change would also make one of the key features of Veteran (highlighting priority targets) available for all Combat Abilities willing to go down the middle path.

As outlined in the Overview, this would also mean removing Enhanced Target Priority from the Executioner’s stance.

  1. Reduce detonation time and reduce damage falloff on Krak Granade.

This is mostly a balance change. While Krak is fun to use, its efficiency leaves a lot to be desired. It’s an ability functioning as (almost entirely) single target removal, with an activation time long enough for allies to kill your target in almost any case. Its burst damage against bosses isn’t bad, but also isn’t mindblowing, and it’s entirely useless in almost all Event scenarios where Ogryns are almost nonexistent.

  1. Maybe introduce a talent node deep into the middle tree to specifically (or mainly) boost Power Sword.

Again, if Shock Trooper is considered a good node by the developers a similar one for Power Sword should be placed into the middle tree.

Why the middle tree?

  • Power Sword is an Officer weapon of the Astra Militarum, what better fit than the Squad Leader?
  • Placing the node into the middle tree would require picking both the Middle and Right paths to fully boost the weapon (ideally making it one of the best choices on full melee Veteran) while requiring to forgo nodes on the right making the build considerably weaker with ranged weapons.
  • Also it would be a strong offensive option to pick up if going deep both in the Left and the Middle tree paying the price of forgoing additional mobility present in the right side of the tree.

If Shock Trooper is considered problematic then there at least should be a node that increases the power of the Power Sword more than other melee weapons, and the best place for it based on the reasoning above is the middle tree.

Where to put it exactly?

I think the current position of Competitive Urge would be about right. I could even be a replacement for it if the problems I outlined here: Another why%: Competitive Urge couldn’t be eliviated.

On a bit different node about Power Sword: Reducing the damage of the Energized Heavy Attack wasn’t a good change. It makes using heavy attacks almost never worth it, together with the lost breakpoint on push attacks the weapon currently is almost entirely about spamming light attacks.

Fixing the Right Side: Mobility and Melee!

The strangest of lanes, the right side just somehow doesn’t add up. Infiltrate feels a bit unfitting, as diving enemy lines isn’t a good idea on a Veteran made out of paper, while also being very weak compared to Zealot’s shrouding field. Currently building a very heavily melee focused Veteran using Middle and Right paths makes you nothing more than a wanna-be Zealot.

This tree is also littered with not-so-good nodes, so let’s start by fixing them.

  1. Buff Vanguard.

While it is quite a unique talent, I did enjoy sprint efficiency in the past, the Node should also have something else going for it if it remains where it is. An increase in sprint speed would suffice.

  1. Buff Smoke Bomb.

Smoke Bomb is currently a very underwhelming ability. It seems to do nothing against melee enemies, doesn’t block sniper shots, and popping one under your feet doesn’t seem to do much if anything.

Proposed changes:

  • Let it block sniper shots.
  • Make enemies stop attacking and be confused for a second (like when they are looking around half-alerted) when caught in the smoke.
  • Stop gunners shooting your location after the smoke explodes.
  • Increase damage against enemies caught in the smoke.

These were the best ones I could find and/or think of, apart from one additional one:

  • Give it a more interesting name!
  1. Rework Twinned Blast.

I already talked about it in my previous post here: Traveling to the Right: Twinned Blast

Apart from my proposed solution to make it into a powerful node (by gaining an additional grenade automatically while it is the last one, or while on full grenade count) I’ve also seen very good alternatives and some more light-hearted options:

  • Rework it into a Node that allows Veteran to throw grenades instantly similar to Zealot’s throwing knives.
  • Make it throw 1-2 Frag grenades when the player downs or dies, possibly with a cooldown.
  1. Add Close Quaters Killzone or Surprise attack to the base Infiltrate abilility!

Currently, Infiltrate just seems like a worse version of Zealot’s shrouding field. Adding either Close Quarters Killzone or Surprise Attack to the base version while reducing toughness regain to 50% would make it a more well-rounded ability more in line with other Combat Abilities other classes have.

The one node not added to the ability should remain as a pickable option for a possible double dipping into a short-duration 60% close-range damage boost, which would probably be glorious with a reworked ranged tree and a sudden unloading of Bolter fire into the enemy’s face. Although with a very very high opportunity cost if you also want to pick up survivalist.

Removing the cooldown increase on Overwatch is also something to consider. Currently, it’s a very taxing Node to pick.

With the next change, Hunter’s Resolve should be removed from Infiltrate:

  1. Rename Hunter’s Resolve to Unwavering Focus and make it into a Capstone on the right side of the tree.

I already outlined the benefits in the Overview section. Removing Hunter’s Resolve from Infiltrate would also make the Combat Ability a more well-rounded non-precision-based offense-orientated ability, the opposite of Executioner’s Stance.

  1. Buff/Rework Skirmisher

It’s a balance pass again. Skirmisher’s damage boost stack very, very slowly, and even with all the other talents around Veteran can’t really replicate something like the Knife Zealot Momentum playstyle.

  1. Redistribute Nodes at the end of the tree on the right side.

Already touched on this in my previous post here: Honorable Mentions: Melee Tree and now with a bit more time thinking about it I have some ideas to make the end of the tree a bit better. It might require not just re-organization, but also some adjustments to existing Nodes.

With the new Unwavering focus at the end, this would be an enticing choice for all Combat Abilities. It would also bring back some of the old Volley Fire playstyle, where the Veteran with nodes on the left and the right side of the tree could stand in gunfire (more or less) unfazed by it (although with a now much-reduced toughness pool).

With that said, some of the choices present must be redistributed, allowing Veterans to pick up a boost to its Melee potential earlier, while also leaving some abilities boosting a more mobile playstyle at the end.

  1. Rething Onslaught

Onslaught currently (together with other sources of rending like Knife with Uncanny Blessing on Zealot, and Dominate node on Ogryn) worsens the current trend of Armored enemies looking like meaty fools wrapped in paper.

On Veteran I feel this is especially bad, giving incredible armor penetration to fast shooting weapons most prominently to Recon Lasgun which can currently melt away Crusher patrols faster than a plasma gun does.

Due to how rending works the increase in penetration is much more noticeable (and powerful) on weapons with little to no penetration to begin with.

While I’m sure many people enjoy this, I much like it removed or heavily nerfed together with other similar effects giving a bit more room to anti-armor weaponry and Blitz Abilities.

At the very least the interaction with Rending boosting bleed and burn (like Shredder Frag Grenade’s bleed damage) should be removed.

Last mention: Give Plasma some love!

The plasma gun is now… very weak. Overshadowed by the Voidstrike in fantasy, and by the Revolver in power. It suffers from incredible ammo issues, very, very hard-to-reach breakpoints, and low cleave. Even adding Nodes/Talents boosting it would make it right.

I’d like to see it useable again on the highest difficulty, and enhanced… because it deserves it.

  • Please make the Plasma gun Cleave way more!
  • Boost it’s damage substantially!
  • And maybe… Maybe… Make its attack splash for some big AoE damage upon hitting walls it cannot penetrate or when running out of cleave on enemies!

Thank you!

If you made it to the end, thank you for reading!

I have to thank @alsozara, @weeping.moon , @BongoSkaggs, and @Reginald for some of the ideas. Also thanks to everyone else whose names I do not recall, but either stolen ideas from, or whose posts helped me have a more rounded view of the Veteran’s Talent Tree!

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Can you explain what you mean here? What exactly is a travel node? I’m guessing it’s the small dot-like nodes you’re referring to?

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You are correct, updated post for clarity.

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As someone who mained plasma before the patch, I would absolutely recommend both a heavy-weapons specialization and some base buffs to plasma to compensate its abysmal drawbacks. This thing should one-shot anything that isn’t a monstrosity with a charged shot and any non-special/elite with a normal shot on Damnation if it’s going to have as little ammo as it currently does, and if that’s too much damage, it very much needs an ammo boost to make it sustainable enough to work in Damnation and Auric/Maelstrom.

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Solid and insightful post from someone I know who plays a lot of veteran (and well). As someone who doesn’t play near so much I have been fiddling with the veteran tree and something I noticed is that there are 3 nodes that seem relatively inconspicuous at first but are actually absolutely huge transformations of gameplay. I think veteran would instantly be improved if they were moved such that you could take 2 of these nodes (but not three) and retain like 2 extra node points to use at the top pf the tree. This would instantly improve the flexibility of the tree while preserving the theme of rigid order.

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Hello :slight_smile: These are some interesting suggestions. I will need time to process this. For now though I can add to the heavy weapons part and something related to the weapons

One of the many things I see Devs fail to recognize or acknowledge is that optics are not just a tool or for cosmetic reasons… It is also a disability device. Not everyone has great vision. Having access to something to aid someone in that situation should be a thing in all games

I think that all classes that use a gun should be able to pick the optic they want

As for Heavy weapons… It would be nice to see passives for the Bolters as one of the issues with the Veteran is a lack of weapons with Armour Piercing (that can also hit Snipers)

One of the suggestions I provided a long time ago (and brought up again a few moments ago) is adding the Hot Shot Las Gun. I was reading in the lore that the Karskins had a Marksman Variant of it. I think that is another weapon that could be added as a Heavy Weapon

The reason I think that is because while the Plasma Gun can be good in certain situations, the problem is that unless you know your team, odds are that by bringing it, it puts you or your team at a disadvantage (due to not being able to deal with targets at a safe distance easily)

And it is not like there is a passive right now for it… The critical hits do not consume ammo one

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Listen to this man, for he speaks the emperor’s truth

There’s no two ways about it, every single ult is way too stripped down. Imagine Ogryn’s bullrush where you move, but have to spend a point to be able to knock things down, or psyker’s shriek but you have to spend a point to make it vent peril. That’s all three of Veteran’s ults. And on top of that, some of Veteran’s options, shout revive or double stealth, reduce effectiveness and increase cooldown time by 33%, why? On any other class the price for a strong ult choice is being locked out of a different option.

I don’t hate ammo extending talents. I like em, actually. But crit-based free ammo on Vet for a class of weapons that already have massive ammo reserves isn’t necessary. You could get fairer results if it simply reduced the amount of ammo needed for one shot with energy weapons, which would make it applicable to Plasma!

What I would like from these two are so different I dont think it would be solved by one talent. Unless the talent is a separate, maybe even a stacking ammo return that only works for them.

Removal probably best. If I understand correctly, Rending does nothing for weapons that already have max armor pen, which is plasma and power sword and combat axe. Is that right? So, no matter how one builds, there’s no situation where these talents can exist that doesn’t make fast attacking light weapons world’s better than dedicated anti-armor weapons, ever, right?

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Thanks for the shoutout. While I think there are plenty of good ideas in here (and most of them aren’t even mine) I do have some major issues.

First and foremost being that your proposal doesn’t address toughness generation talents. Right now Veteran is the class with the worst access to toughness via talents.

  • Catch a Breath is useless, as mentioned.
  • Out For Blood is not only in a terrible spot on the tree, but it’s also just another one of Veteran’s old passive effects split out into a talent. Though at least unlike Always Prepared and Scavenger the effect was at least buffed.
  • Exhilarating Takedown requires two tax talents to take. Plus it doesn’t work well on a number of builds and weapons since it specifically only procs on ranged headshot kill.
  • Confirmed Kill is very deep in the middle branch, also takes multiple talent taxes, and your proposed rework for it is a massive nerf to the talent in general.

If we look at the other classes they all have their major toughness talents high in the tree, prior to choosing a blitz. Veteran deserves to have their toughness talents early on too. Plus a general pass of how effective they are in the new scheme of build design.

Along these same lines I believe that Veteran should also get at least one, maybe two, more cooldown reduction options. While Tactical Awareness is pretty good, and located in a useful spot, I believe there should be more variety.

Speaking of talent access, I firmly believe that Always Prepared should go where Longshot currently is. Ammo maximum is way more universally applicable than Longshot’s more weapon dependent bonus.

In my opinion, Veteran should always have something of a focus on guns. Like how Zealot is always melee aspected, even with a flamer and all of their ranged talents.

To this end, I would say that the distinction between the left and right sides of the bottom of the Veteran’s talent tree should be focused on long range vs close range combat. Not guns vs melee. The primary distinction is that the right side of the tree should include talents that cater to things like shotguns and the various pistols; auto, las, and revolver. And allow the use of most other guns, such as the bolter and the various autoguns, in a very aggressive CQC manner.

Of course, all of that depends on Veteran’s talent tree not being reworked to include keystones.

But I really, really, really strongly believe that Veteran’s talent tree should be reworked to include keystones.

The capstone concept is just so… unfulfilling in comparison to keystones.

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Perhaps anything that modifies ammo reserve/carried also adds to heat sink capacity for plasma?

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I kinda have a feeling it will tbh

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The fact it procs off any type of kill makes it extremely versatile and be felt no matter what you’re doing. Its position is its only issue. It pairs so naturally with bleed nades it should really be one of the nodes right before that nade.

I mean technically not always a tax since not every weapon wants deadshot, but yeah agreed its position is really awkward currently.

The more I bounce between Vet and other classes the more I realise how truly outstanding CK is as a toughness talent. Only the Ogryn double heavy toughness talent combo genuinely does more for you. I would take it a billion times over on basically every class however much I had to go out of my way for it. It SHOULD be made more accessible, but it absolutely should be nerfed a bit too to compensate. Especially if it’s changed to work on anyone killing a tagged elite/special as suggested by OP.

Also the only real taxes for it are the stat nodes which OP has already suggested lessening. Almost everything else leading up to it or surrounding it are bangers. Most high value area of the whole tree IMO.

Agreed, Vet builds feel way less coherent without them.

Something minor to add to your list of issues @Nish. I’ve heard “Born Leader” only shares toughness gain with team mates if you are actually missing toughness to regen in the first place.

Sitting on 5 stacks of confirmed kill? Oops your toughness is full now so the talent now does nothing. This obviously turns that talent into a complete meme and should be fixed. Especially since competitive urge is genuinely pretty great, so I can’t imagine why you’d ever path to rending strikes by way of born leader as it stands.

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Probably because competitive urge is so unreliable. It’s great when it procs, but you can’t rely on both a 2.5% chance of proccing and that if it does proc, there would be something left for you to do because it’s everything dying that gave it enough opportunities to proc.

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I mean it’s up pretty often in my experience, though obviously it’s the kind of awkwardly designed talent that scales very much with difficulty level and won’t be felt much at all on lower difficulties.

I’m still not quite sure if it procs off your own kills as well. If it doesn’t it probably should.

It’s a BIG global damage boost so kinda hard to balance well. Not really a fan of its condition either but since starting to use it on my Brauto build I definitely feel it.

Fairly irrelevant to Born Leader being a complete trap regardless.

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Preemptive apology for the excessive quoting, I’m feeling lazy atm.

Absolutely. It should be the top priority pick for literally every Veteran build right now because stands head and shoulders above every other survivability option for the class.

You forgot to mention the psyker’s various “get toughness for just not being AFK” talent combinations. I don’t even take ogryns heavy attack toughness talents on my heavy stubber gunlugger build because, unlike vet, they have very good access to toughness blessings. Most notably Confident Strike.

I remain quite unconvinced of that. It would hugely depend on both how the other talents are changed and how accessible they are.

@Nish’s suggestions to only work on kills if they tagged by the vet are 100% massive, massive nerfs to both Confirmed Kill and Tactical Awareness.

I just mean that you need to take 2 stat points to get the chance to spend a point on Exhilarating Takedown. One on the travel tax node, which is normal, and one more just to kick players squarely in the balls. Such CBT only occurs in veteran’s tree and one really conspicuously weirdo spot in zealot’s, right above Until Death.

Born Leader and Covering Fire should both probably be changed to grant overtoughness. Otherwise they just suck ass regardless since every class not named Veteran is extremely self sustaining toughness wise.

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None of them are nearly as strong individually, and are working with much lower base toughness. Maybe if you combine 3 talents at once but that’s hardly a fair comparison to a single talent.

Fair enough. I just very much notice how insanely tanky Vet can get with a few confirmed kill stacks + iron will. I can stand in direct fire while shooting back through stuff I absolutely would not get away with on anyone but Ogryn (largely because he still has his intrinsic DR from pre patch which is questionably intended). Certainly no combo of Psyker toughness talents let me tank bullets to the same extent.

Especially when you can combine that with shout overshield as well, like I struggle to imagine anyone taking that combo and telling me they can’t just waltz out of ranged fire relatively unscathed that would evaporate other classes.

Compared to any other single toughness talent I genuinely think there is an entire tier between confirmed kill and everything else. The only thing that handicaps it is having your kills stolen, which is annoying but usually means there weren’t enough threatening targets around to be an issue in the first place (or your team mates are just terrible in which case GG).

I agree it’s currently balanced by lack of other good enough options and the positions in the tree (I’m pretty sure FS putting it down there was very much intentional…). I’m just wary of how good it would be if those two things were fixed.

TBH I read that as an additional condition, as in what you personally kill or anything that is tagged by you, which should be a straight buff. Will have to wait for OP to chime in to clarify. I agree if it was restricted to that condition alone it would be a bit awkward.

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That’s fair. I just want it to be crystal clear that flat out saying Confirmed Kill “absolutely should be nerfed a bit too to compensate [for being easier to access],” is missing the forest for the trees. A much more holistic examination of the spectrum of toughness options available to vet is required to say whether or not Confirmed Kill needs to be nerfed or not. Not to mention an examination of how vets options compare to what the other classes have.

Then you haven’t tried true Assail cheese. :rofl: Hell, even just spamming the ever loving hell out of voidstrike or trauma staff let you tank so much crap on psyker. My psyker only has like 91 toughness total and she’s arguably tankier than my non-prayer zealot builds.

On a second reading of the OP I can see how you would reach that conclusion. In which case I concur; those would both be ludicrous buffs to put into place for already very strong talents.

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Agreed toughness talents need to be weighed holistically including the point cost to reach/combo them.

Trauma has range issues for trading with shooters sometimes but yeah you’re 100% correct I haven’t tried those other 2 yet. I imagine they do get pretty bonkers with on warp kill.

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Is no one unsatisfied with deadshot in it’s current state? I feel like it should give stamina back on crit, like between 15-25%. Also the paths you take to change branches costs more points than any other career. Could fix this by only having 2 nodes after the blitz, aura and ability with the middle path branching to both nodes but can travel between these nodes from the left or right side which would cost 1 less point than previously.

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I actually did address this. If you look at the Deep Dive tree preview (which I posted in the beginning of my previous post) the Toughness Gain nodes are actually in pretty good positions.

CK is currently balanced by the fact that it’s the only thing you really have on Vet. It is actually way less powerful now with the heavily reduced toughness pool, and also pretty conditional. Out for Blood is versatile but 2.5% is 2.5%, and Exhilarating Takedown is only useful in takedowns.

If you look at either Ogryn or Psyker both are way better off in the Toughness gain department, while Zealot just gets more reliable stuff (while being either super mobile or very tanky compared to Vet).

I think the difference is that on Vet it’s 1 node that situationally makes your toughness gain better while others have to take 3 (and can take 4 or more) to be overall better.

I’m not aversive to reducing the bonus, but in that case, you have to add 1 or 2 more good toughness gain nodes.

In relation to both Ogryn’s Toughness on heavies and psykers 15% on warp kill are things I would consider in the same ballpark as confirmed kill. They don’t grant regen, but they are far more reliable to trigger.

You can basically regen your whole bar in a few attacks on Ogryn and usually with a single one with Psyker.

Yes, it’s in addition to. I’ll update the post for better clarity.

I feel like competitive urge is a crime. Unreliable, out of your hand with a large enough bonus to make a big difference.

Lmao.

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Ah, I must have just skimmed over it. Sorry mate.

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