Veteran's talent tree feels bad man

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
1

Irrespective of the actual balance of the class, trying to make a satisfying, synergistic build with these talents is like pulling teeth. It’s quite vexing.

So let’s look at different parts of the tree to see what the issues are. We’ll start off with what I consider the worst section, the very bottom.

The way I see it, there are two major problems with the talent tree down here:

  1. There are too many talents in this area, full stop.
  2. There are way too many of the white stat nodes. And they primarily exist for no other purpose than to serve as a tax to eat up additional talent points.
  3. The extremely rigid and linear nature of these talent columns makes it difficult to get stuff you might want out of them without paying a hefty tax in the form of other talents.

Additionally, Veteran has the unique issue of his talent taxes feeling worse to pay than the other classes. This is specifically due to the fact that he doesn’t have any high value keystones to work towards to ameliorate the pain of being taxed.

If we look at the other classes we can see they don’t cleave to this same paradigm. Ogryn is the closest, having a similarly linear structure, but still has significantly fewer nodes over all and only 3 stat nodes per column, compared to the Veteran’s figure of 5-6 stat nodes per column.

Next on the list is the other end of the talent tree, the very start. Before you get down to the blitzes.

Once again Veteran has a very restrictive tree, with very few paths around, but this time with very few talents to take. The problem here is the rigidity of the columns makes it difficult to spend extra points in this part of the tree without paying a talent tax. Compare this to the Psyker and Ogryn who have immense freedom to roam around this area. Even the Zealot more options than the Veteran in this pre-blitz area.

My suggestions are as follows:

First and foremost, reduce the number of stat nodes in the Veterans trees. All my builds on the other three classes take 9 stat nodes pathing around the tree. But my Veteran builds all take 11-12 of the bloody things and it feels bad man.

Secondly, add more connections between the talent columns. Just to make it easier to path around. Ideally could even go the way that the Ogryn and Psyker trees do by constricting down from three paths to two in selected areas to specifically make it cheaper to move between the left and right columns.

16 Likes
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I fully agree with the need for more cross connections. Ogryns and psykers have it easier than veteran or zealot because vertical progress takes less points. But the reciprocal problem is that Ogryns and Psykers lack the ability to freely cross between columns. Both issues could be solved by adding more sideways and diagonal connections instead of straight verticals.

Agreed. The bottom of each veteran branch needs to be tightened up a lot, it should take fewer points overall to reach the keystone and the talents along the way should be side branches, not part of a daisy chain.

6 Likes
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Yup. Not only is vet weaker in general than before, but the organisation of the talent tree appears to be designed to hamstring you if you want to get nodes from different paths.

I wouldn’t hope for too much though…

That is; They know. It’s what they intended.

This is just straight up wrong. They’ve done the exact opposite. The way the nodes are organised punishes you for trying to hybridise, and the tree is absolutely loaded with talent taxes, which sucks up all the free points you’d otherwise use to cross lanes.

As for this:

I’d truly be interested to know what roles and power fantasies they came up with and how they expect anyone to reach them with this talent tree, because I’d love to challenge their accuracy.

14 Likes
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@FatsharkCatfish

Could you please relay this along to the powers that be? A fairly clear concensus is already starting to emerge here, so there might be an opportunity to get out ahead of it and start to work on suitable fixes while the iron is still hot.

5 Likes
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The tree feels kinda scattered and weirdly organised to me. I was trying to build a mercenary Kruber analogue and two things have really stood out to me.

  1. Melee boosts are scattered seemingly randomly around the tree, and there are extremely few good toughness regen options for a melee build. Taking confirmed kill means missing out on so many important melee bonuses on the right branch and vice versa.

  2. Shout Ult I want to love but it’s audio visual feedback is very lackluster and the stagger seems very weak, not even interrupting Ragers which is like half the appeal of a shout Ult to me (not Ragers specifically but a strong AoE stagger in general). Don’t get me wrong the toughness fill and team revives is pretty strong but it just feels really unimpactful especially compared to the VT2 shout Ults.

In general I really don’t enjoy how backloaded the tree seems to be nor the lack of connecting nodes between the final branches. Also has to be said how weak some of the auras seem to be. +3% damage for allies in coherency? Really? And it overrides your base ammo regen aura lol. I feel forced into scavenger even though that forces me through some ranged nodes I have no interest in.

6 Likes
6

My least favorite thing about the new veteran is:
Volley Fire cooldown only starts once the ability is turned off.

This is kinda bad.
Then again, we get this feat to compensate. You would think, but most reasonable veteran players would probably quite often use their volley fire to clean up the specials. Which means they would not get a benefit from this feat.
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Also, this one was changed from “all shooters” to “all ranged enemies”, but scab stalkers still do not get marked.
Now that it says “all ranged enemies”, one would also expect that reapers would get marked. But of course they also do not get marked.
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If you no longer want infinitely chained volley fire, ok.
But at least finally let us tag all of the shooters, or all of the ranged enemies.

12 Likes
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Also, it is quite sad how they neutered the power sword.
Considering how massively some weapons were buffed, it is quite sad that a heavy with activated weapon special from this bad boy can no longer 1 shot a single scab melee, dreg melee or dreg shooter, without slaughterer stacks.

In case of the dreg melee trashmob, my Power Sword’s empowered attacks can not even one shot headshot it with 5 stacks of T3 slaughterer anymore (deals 672 dmg, guy has 688 hp).

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With a bunch of other weapons, you just swing and 1 shot these enemies.
With this weapon, you can have perfect stats, activate the special, do a heavy and you still can not 1 shot them (activated heavy now does the same dmg as activated light, lol).

9 Likes
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It’s not like you can’t chain it for as long as there’s enemies to shoot, you totally can. There’s just not enough ammo in the game to play like that anymore.

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Yes you technically can, but as soon as it drops once, you have to wait.
Before, you could just reactivate if you had kept it going for long enough.

Edit: wtf. why does the forum keep deleting citations from my posts (and adding 1 edit), the moment i post them?
And when i add the citation back in, the post instantly gets a 2nd edit, although i edited it within a few seconds of it being posted, which usually does not add an edit.

1 Like
10

The new grenade anti armored is super extremely useful, absolutel excelent and powerful,
and the ability to mark all specials for the group is super useful too
but the character takes way too much damage too fast, is weaker than before

1 Like
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And we realy realy need “Camo Expert” back.

How could they get rid of the one unique game style that made the Verteran special?

3 Likes
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Hes got suppresion resistance now though.

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I had that on my gun before anyway.

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I haven’t played with my Vet yet, but from tinkering with the tree, it’s a little annoying that the last part of the tree requires you to take 2 consecutive basic nodes to reach the end of the tree. I’ve spread my talents fairly wide (Krak grenade, Scavenger, Shout, and a few 2-3 point deviations) but that 1 extra basic node just annoys me.

Requiring an extra basic node to cross the tree? 100% fine, no big deal. Requiring it to descend the tree? It’s really boring.

I’m not sure if the other trees have a similar issue, but I don’t recall seeing 2 consecutive basic nodes for any other class.

2 Likes
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yes the veteran seems to be the one with the most basic node.
I can get why as he is the “no nonsens” guy who make his mark with his gun rather than weird powers. But it’s still frustrating

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Honestly, I don’t think the trees are as inflexible as folks think, and I don’t think it needs an outright rework. Conceptually, I’m probably one of the few weirdoes that really likes what they were going for with each of the trees. I do think some things should be shuffled around and/or buffed though:

  • Executioner’s stance tree is the only viable section in terms of staying competitive DPS-wise. Key problem with it is that the survivability trade off is way too steep relative to other classes. Vet was always rather squishy, the current balance turned him from a glass cannon to a paper mache cannon. If vet being this vulnerable is within intent then the tree needs access to mobility boosting options. Otherwise currently the only way to be reasonably survivable is to run only knifes.

It is also worth noting that the Sharpshooter tree along other DPS carry trees from other classes need to all be probably be hit with (at least) a slight nerf. Consistently going over 600-800K melee or ranged DMG while the rest of the team is between 300-500k DMG on Auric Maelstrom and STG when using some of the usual suspects is some clown world sh*t.

  • Voice of Command tree needs easier access to DMG options, either boost it’s native DMG talents or give it an ability DMG modifier besides the final talent. Instant revive CR tax needs to be removed or the talent should also give additional charges of it if the CR tax remains. Otherwise it’s pretty solid right now.

  • Infiltrate is in a rough spot, remove the For The Emperor - Low Profile talent mutually exclusive lock as a start. Vanguard talent should also provide movement speed, otherwise it feels like a tax node, this could also solve the sharpshooter tree’s mobility problem. Revive speed modifier talent needs to have additional effects to entice people to pick it. Extra CR or a charge maybe? Also all commando tree DMG sources should revolve around the vet switching between ranged and melee. All of it’s DMG sources should be hybrid DMG at a minimum, and will likely need to be buffed afterwards too anyways.

  • All grenade talent benefits should be consolidated into 3 Talents, and each be native to one of the trees but be easily accessible by others. Tinkerer bonus should give smoke grenades access to a DMG option, basically it converts it to a White Phosphorous Grenade and allows it to apply burn stacks (up to a cap) to all enemies that come into contact with the smoke cloud. This should entice people to actually pick it, and open up additional synergies for DoT builds.

  • All aura talents should either be reworked to be more powerful or merged into a single one. Ammo efficiency across the board is in the gutter under the current balance, therefore no one in their right minds will pick anything else over scavenger.

  • Extra ammo capacity talent needs to be a central node, easily accessible by all trees and higher up.

  • Vet survivability is in the garbage bin atm, even if you’re running pure commando or officer. Either increase the vet’s base HP or Toughness stats or have the relevant talent nodes provide a higher bonus.

8 Likes
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FatShark Dev’s reply

We have taken your feedback seriously and after multiple considerations, we have decided to nerf Veterans again because of endless complaints from Zealots & Psykers mains.

5 Likes
19

I’ve enjoyed it so far, only played a few games (Damnation) because of work and because I forgot the day of the patch (lol), but I’m enjoying a run and gun recon laser + melee close combat build, with Voice of Command stagger and krak grenades

There is also a laser spray build that is supposed to melt Crushers

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It’s a dream for me, I was having the most fun playing a charging assault Psyker before the patch, Voice of Command stagger is like the Psyker stagger ult.

I use it with the close combat damage buff. Yeah, you’ll need to get to the end of the tree

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Well I still don’t like how the talent tree is arranged but just found out Vet can do this with Vraks 3 lol

3 Likes