Yes, but people who don’t play the highest difficulties don’t optimize and minmaxing builds aswell most of the time, or atleast there is no big need to do it. So in the end if something works at pick difficulty it works for casuals aswell, doesn’t work in reverse.
I said that it’s possible, but didn’t say it’s fun or good. But what i did say is the same build would be better with agripinaa shotgun. Since you need to play melee a lot, cause of ammo problems on bolter, you need to swap between weapons a lot, and considering how it’s slow to pull out bolter is’t just tedious and makes you vulnerable every time. And there is no swap speed nodes.
Not only, but porbably it’s better not to, vet tree isn’t point efficient, there could be some interesting combos (like smoke nade + bio optics), but talents are just too far from each other and you will loose some dps/survivability. Vet just feels very restricted, like he needs ~5 talent points more.
I agree with your entire post, Just adding, not negating.
For above quote specifically here is where the build viability comes into play in my book. When it comes to skill tree at least, I felt you have only few choices pre-patch due to how classes worked (not only for vet). Now I simply feel I have more choice.
For lower diffs, where I dare say most players play (but feel free to correct me if anyone has the data), there are more viable options. Then as you say we go into most optimised builds with difficulty ramp up. Also high diff optimised builds usually work in lower diffs, but are also often an overkill, thus you can branch out more freely earlier, as you do not have to go extra mile to acheive breakpoints. The same goes for weapons.
How it looks for me, more less, just a approximation:
Right from the start you can take toughness on hits or lynchpin, or both.
You can go full gunlugger or can take only damage on reload+big boom for rumbler, or only damage on reloading for knockback.
Bleed works for any weapon and you can take it with 2 melee ultimates. Bleed even works with range special melee attacks like rippergun bayonet.
Taunt ult works fine with any weapon, but still bit better with stagger-oriented cause of cd farm. Attention seeker partialy works with any weapon, but better with shield.
You are not rly forced to take situative niche talents with ogryn and can mix a lot. Both universal and niche talents are easy to reach on his tree.
The only stright up restriction i don’t like with ogryn is you can’t have Friendly Rock and Soften them up together.
Vet tree isn’t even near.
Which seems casual players are fine with, since how often they are asking for power fantasy expirience. And if someone don’t like it he can go to an upper difficulty, but there is nowhere to go further if you are already at the highest one, so it’s all about variability there.
Well, there is more things to play with now, i think, but it doesn’t change that fact there are problems with skill tree, and with most popular weapons too. Especially when you compare vet with other classes.
Oh, I never negated that, in my first posts I was clear that Vet got nerfed. It just isn’t the end of the world for me and I am having more fun with it now then before. I guess that class stagnated a bit for me from release.
Probably I enjoy the chase and experimentation towards optimal more than actually playing on optimal builds.
I also mentioned that the last nodes are lacklustre in comparision to others so there are defintely areas for improvement.
In any case, thanks for the discussion, good points.
That sounds like a very specific interpretation and not really what I wrote is it
No worries, you read it as you like, I already explained how it was meant.
Lets assume that this is indeed the case, although it is a very subjective topic, that is why I am writing how things look like for me.
Still for a moment let us assume that what you show is universally correct, that still means that below top 20% diff, most ppl have more variety.
It also means that FS has some work to do to expand it for top level vets.
I am all for that , the more choices we have on all levels the better !!
Most people? Yes.
The core playerbase that will stick with the game? That’s the problem.
Most people won’t go past malice in difficulty, play their 20-30-ish hours at most with couple of friends and probably forget about the game in favour of the next shiny thing.
And the players that decide to stick with the game will get bored of low difficulty eventually. So, what i’m trying to say, is that current tree works for majority of players, but not the core playerbase (with some exeptions ofc) that stuck with the game trough the year.
You may be correct there, then again I am playing all classes, around 500 hrs in DT and I still find positives in that. I mean I do not know where I sit in that "core player base"or “most ppl”, but it is clear I have more relaxed approach then some of our best number cruchers.
Not saying by any stretch of imagination that it is perfect and yes, Vet got nerfed and needs some more synergies in the tree, as well as more reason to go for final nodes, in my opinion, but as mentioned in other posts on this forum, I am still having more fun with vet now then in last 6 months. Again this is subjective, depends on how we play with whom and many other factors. It is however important to remember that for super-optimizers, they will usually tend to go for one/two uber builds anyway.
So yes, I appreciate, more varierty for other players or even more during leveling, something most ppl here probably forgot exists
Power Sword got heavily nerfed, a 79% Damage & 25% Damage vs Flak Armored & Charged, you could take down “dreg melee” by 1 heavy charged melee attack to the head, right now they still do have 160 HP Left, their base HP is 687.5 at damnation (buffed from 500HP) , thats nearly 23% HP remaining.
Just as a heads up, Exploit Weakness and Onslaught are both Brittleness which caps at 40% - so having both will stack faster but you won’t get any additional brittleness (It says Rending in the Tool tip - but that is inaccurate)
I think its because you’re looking at something from a pure power perspective instead of overall enjoyment. Does it matter if Vet has a powerful build if I don’t want to use it? Recon lasguns kinda suck, I don’t like em. I don’t like how they look, I don’t like how it plays. If its the strongest build, and I only play the highest difficulty missions because I want challenge, I’m going to be punished for not picking it. Similarly, maybe I also really really like something else, like using iconic 40k weapons like the bolter and powersword? That was the top feeling of “awesome” for this game, and it certainly helped that I could make a huge impact on HISG Damnation games with it (and I ran ogryn hunter exclusively so had to skillfully reload or wade in with melee after). If thats worse now, and other classes are going to make me feel useless unless I use whatever else is strong that will feel bad as a player.
This is like telling a sports fan whose team is sucking to just bandwagon cheer for someone else. No thanks! I would like Vet with bolter to be strong so I can have max fun with the game.
Personally I don’t think “normal” weapons should be top tier / better than the iconic 40k weapons. Power sword SHOULD be strong, force sword SHOULD be strong, all chain weapons SHOULD be strong. Regular ass axes and swords should just be downgrades, sidegrades, or weird niche weapons at best.
Ideal state of the game is obviously everything balanced in some way so all players get maximum enjoyment. Very hard for that to occur, but if it can’t then please just make the actual 40k weapons max fun and power tia
Edit: And I think this kind of thing happens a lot in MMOs or other ability based games, certain class archetypes get nerfed. Right now shooty vet is overshadowed by 2 other classes. It doesn’t feel good for players who don’t WANT to be commissar vet or weird stealth vet.
I have no issue with differing opinions. This is a forum. By definition a place for the free expression of opinions, and if you recall, I made a point of clearly saying that I envy your satisfaction with the new system. I wasn’t kidding. I wish I did too. I imagine the same is true for many of the rest of us.
No, what I take issue with is your tone and delivery. I can only speak for myself, but to me it came of as condescending and smug. As if to demean those who didn’t see it as you do.
That said, I will acknowledge at the outset a level of inherent guardedness on my part because SO VERY OFTEN the heart of the argument which proponents of the Veteran nerfing espouse seems to amount to “yes, but it’s not that bad and it’s still viable”. An argument I find to be (at best) tired, disingenuous, and a borderline deflection, and/or “the reduction is more in line with my preferred sense of subjective balance, so deal with because I say so”.
Perhaps that was genuinely not your intention. Stranger things have certainly happened, and if so then I apologize for not giving you the benefit of the doubt, but this is a two-way street, and based on your comments so far, it is difficult to see them as well-meaning.
Or to use the cliche, “not what is being said, but how it is said”.
Oh it was his intention. Every single post he makes can be boiled down to “well I am having fun so there is no problem and if you disagree then YOU are the problem.”
And don’t give his ilk the benifit of the doubt. That is how they start taking over something. People try to be civil and they trample over them to push the line as far as they can until someone starts fighting back. Then they accuse said person of being mean, etc until the “get along everyone no matter what” crowd silences the ones standing up to them. Then when the attention shifts they go back to trampling over the line. Rinse and repeat until they have created a new “normal” where their methods are okay but its still not okay to fight back. Basically these are the schoolyard bullies who were as nasty as possible without violating the craziest interpetation of the rules (aka pushing, shoving, tripping, etc but never throwin an actual punch) then siccing the monitor or teacher on their victim for fighting back.
Glad that you know everybody’s intention. Considering you already had posts flagged earlier even in this post, I will simply disregard your venom.
No one ever said anyone is the problem, simpy that I have a different opinion, I don’t really care you can’t deal with it. And if you could read with understanding, there are conversations here with diverging opinions if someone is open enough to actually have them, You are certainly not that person.
Icemount sounded like a jerk.
You are being a jerk right now.
There is a time to fight for your opinion and to draw a line, yes. But now you are just behaving like those you wrote about.
Ok, thanks for clarifying. If that is not pushing it, can you tell me which sentence(s) felt ill-meant, from your perspective. I already explained my meaning in previous posts, regardless english is not my native language, so maybe I misstepped somewhere.
I know ppl have different perspectives, I don’t want to convince anyone otherwise, anyone feels what they do playing it, so do I. Didn’t expect having a different or broader view, not only form Vet and “endgame” prespective will be met with such hostility. I don’t know why people assume that when differing views are expressed, it must mean someone has to have bad intentions.
As I said my comment on trying things differently was not in the light of you or anyone having your favorite not working as it used/supposed to but rather finding if you can make it or something else that is fun for you come out well.
I believe you wrote yourself, that when changes like this come, meta shifts.
I can stand behind the fantasy of WH40K, where Power wpns Plasma, Melta and Bolters should be most powerful, probably woudl invalidate some other weapons, but if majority wants that, why not.
In the end please note that my comments were focused on the talent tree. Weapons are another matter, yet of course with combination of braoder patch changes for Vets these changes might be more fealt than others.
I had furhter enchange on the topic with @weeping.moon , maybe it will put a bit more light on my stance.
