Yah. Half the stuff in this thread (or more) is sheer hyperbole. All the Keystones are good (Focus Target is outstanding), the only one I think is underbaked is Marksman’s Focus because it really only serves the lasgun/autogun section of the Vet’s arsenal and doesn’t really serve other weapons well (put some thoughts a few posts up). But it’s still good, and not hard to maintain stacks with (with the aforementioned weapons) - my general take is a lot of the complaining is from folks that haven’t spent time playing with the new keystones.
Your perspective of “seems fine to me” sucks then, keeping it on topic.
Yeah I gave it a good try, I’m probably just not going to seriously invest in doing vet stuff this patch.
It’s just so awkward now, i feel like with every tree I’m missing a critical part whether it be ammo, survivability, or some other kind of part to it.
I think the 2 closest I’ve gotten to enjoyable was a shout vet with mark and a bolter as well as a melee plasma vet.
I don’t think the keystones are all that bad but i do think for what you get out of Marksman the cost of entry just isn’t worth it. I’ve funny enough had some success with the hellbore but i might need to install a mod just to avoid having the crappy irons they come with.
It’s a bit hard to tell how good i was doing due to my connection crapping out a few times but in general it still felt kinda bad. Echoing others it was full vet gaming when things got heavy since apart from the Catachan Plasma Gunner build i didn’t feel like i had a ton of clutch protentional and overall it was constant skin of my teeth moments despite damage being put out.
Agree, but it’s effectively a tax node here since I need Superiority Complex to meet 1-shot breakpoints on most elites. Then the Stam regen node just feels great when you stack both of them and run them with Deadshot. 1 point tax to get at some really good nodes relatively speaking. If Onslaught could cover down for Superiority complex I’d consider dropping all three, and demo team to get at Rending Strikes.
Keystones, for two of them, have triggers that have been badly chosen.
And, just my opinion, all keystones require you to adopt a behavior not natural. There is no other class with such keystone where you have to adopt a gameplay that requires the keystone.
I can understand the feeling of the OP, but the veteran tree is really flexible. Unless you go for the keystones, but here in all trees we have this.
What I want to point is that you can easily get the better of both bottom tree.
Here an example, that I did in 2 minutes, just to show how it looks.
Fact is that these keystones are forcing you to adopt a gameplay. It would be ok for one, but all with restrictive triggers based on your behavior… here, that’s really a big no.
I can find a way to play… without keystones. I don’t care that they give me 1 or 2 points… I would prefer they rework the keystones.
Yeah, my major pain point is that all the builds I liked running were heavily nerfed by the changes unless you pick a keystone (actually most of them even with keystones). Also agree on the “not natural” part, the only keystone I actually like is the middle one, other two require busywork that clashes with natural gameplay flow.
After playing more Vet tonight and just really not having a great time I still believe so much of Vet’s problems would be alleviated if they didn’t make them so damn squishy. Again maybe its down to Ex takedown not being useful but its infuriating to play such a fragile character that doesn’t have the damage to back it up unless you are using the Plasma Gun. Honestly like 30-50 more health and toughness would be huge.
Psyker and Vet are supposed to be DPS but Psyker pretty much does everything Vet does but better, asides from ammo regen for the team and Plasma (Voidstrike is strong but Plasma is still better).
While I agree the keystones are a bit clunky this is objectively untrue. Martydom and Inexorable Judgement on Zealot both promote different playstyles. Heavy Hitter on Ogryn is a different playstyle. Both Empowered Psionics and Disrupt Destiny significantly change your playstyle.
Additionally Focus target is great even if its not a “natural” enhancement of a playstyle. Having to think a bit more is fine.
I agree with this.
That surprised me, but yes Focus is not badly designed.
Marksman is not bad… but I would have preferred something like each X weakspot kills / hits you get a bonus.
For the last one (weapon specialist), here I can’t see a way to make it interesting. I was expecting something else. I understand the logic behind the keystone, but I don’t want to waste so many precious points to have something that would force me to switch of weapon constantly.
Martyrdom triggers when you loose health. Noone try to loose health, but everybody does. You don’t need to do something not natural to get the bonus.
Inexorable judgment triggers when you move… I think that we all move in our missions, so I would say it is natural.
Heavy hitter invites you to use heavy hits. You still can use the 2 others. But, I would say that getting a bonus every heavy hit, especially when you pick brutish momentum, is really good and doesn’t force you in a gameplay. The bonus comes naturally.
Empowered Psionics and Disrupt Destiny significantly emphasize your gameplay. Empowered is great for every build that rely on powers, disrupt for gun/melee psykers. I like Disrupt destiny tbh, I see that like a rabbit hunting (I like to say “Rabbit!” each time I kill a marked enemy. I would not say that these keystones force you to something not natural. Empowered psinics triggers with kills, I guess we all kill enemies in missions. So this is naturally triggered. Disrupt destiny requires you to kill targets identified, with any way so blitz, melee weapon, ranged weapon. It just requires that you aim at these targets while you play. Here again, this is natural to get the bonus.
So, no. Again and sorry for this, I don’t agree with you.
Understand me, I don’t say that these keystones are weak, just that they don’t meet any of my ways to play a veteran and that they force me into a gameplay I don’t like.
I don’t want to stand still, I don’t like to switch my weapon constantly, and I don’t see an interest in the tag. But Focus target is good, and I think I will do one template with it (but surely not 2… and I use a mod that permits me to create 20 loadouts).
Fact is, I will do 90% of my builds without these keystones. Tbh, I always picked the keystones when I play the other classes. This, and that’s a personal opinion, shows that these keystones are not really good enough compared to other classes.
I just think we’re going to disagree on that point so I don’t really think its worth talking about more, but I do understand the point you are making.
I think that the other keystones do modifer how you play and encourage “unnatural” behaviors but Vet does it moreso than the other classes.
But you do want to get headshots right? All focus target is asking you to do is consistently chain headshots together. Because of this it means that will very unfun on slow firing builds, on spammy and automatic builds it feels great because I don’t play differently at all. I just consistently get headshot hits and kills and can play normally. Important to note is that I never take any of the keystone modifers.
As for weapon specialist, while it emphasizes the switch gameplay style you do not have to do it. You can cache your melee specialst buff for whenever you get pulled into melee and need to draw your weapon. And you can keep meleeing and build up all your ranged stacks for when you do draw your ranged weapon. I didn’t like it at first, but when I stopped trying to super optimize it I enjoyed it for just getting a quick buff for when you switch weapons, which if you’re playing aggressively you should be doing a lot. I also don’t really take modifiers here.
I think its compounding issues. Vet being made out of wet tissue paper makes every build feel worse. Getting to the keystones is so expensive and you can miss out on talent nodes that felt like must haves before. Other than Focus Target all the keystone modifiers are practically worthless.
That’s fine for me. We can disagree.
This is here we clearly disagree.
I think this is fine the number of nodes to get to the keystones. The problem are the keystones. At least for me.
Agreed vet is a mess as squishy **** its worse than before. He really underperforms due to lack of toughness & hp.
Vet has to spend roughly 3 more talent points to get to the keystones than every other class
While playing with the Marksman Focus keystone I did hit some interesting break points with the hellbore where non charged shots would 1tap most things and charged shots did a number on everything else. Combined with + crit on aiming and ammo not being taken on crits I effectively got a free las gun.
The problem is as mentioned the tree has 0 survival. Honestly it would be nice if they even shifted it so the rending or stacks was just a default feature and added a keystone or if they bundled it into the base tree where gaining stack’s increased your toughness DR or toughness.
Yeah you are still banking it on the keystone but it makes landing headshots more worth it because chaining them gives you stacking survival which is easily maintained in more hectic moments.
It’s fine IMO, especially after the buff, it works very well in grenadier builds. But the tree gives you no leeway to take utility picks like this one. Also, finding a weapon talent combo for grenadier builds that aren’t a deadshot + revolver/plasma set is a b@tch. If it ever gets tuned again they really should just make it so it guarantees that one out X every grenades throw guarantees a double nade, makes it more reliable, and guarantees a return for the point because right now, statistically, you can have an entire run where it never procs if RNGeesus hates you.
if they chnage it they should do a Bardin engi talnt where you thorw grenates reach a Granted double allowing you to save it, the way the current talent works is just bad, a grenade that lands within the general proximity is kind of useless espically if it a Krak Grenade. it should be on the same target or clost target to denotation such a mutiple crusher or mualers where if several killed by the grenade the grenade triggers onto the closest elilte or specialist in X range. this also allows for advance plays like Getting the enemies near each other in a Set time as the secound greande goes off. for weapon wise that works well with Grenadier, Acctran pattern Lasgun with Infurnes and Crit Build. ( you need this)
or you can use a Plasma Gun and relover too but then your not overall benefiting from the Buffs of Las weaponary.
IMO, I’m fine with there being a tax point in the transition areas, but they should just be 1 point. Consolidate all other tax nodes into the one in these sections instead of just charging you the extra 2 to 3 points to jump to other trees, god forbid a player try to be creative and create a melee-ranged hybrid build, oh the humanity, the horror!
i don’t mind creating melee Hyprid Builds i would run them my self on the veteran prior to the update, but that no long fessible since to capaitlise on the new perks and the reworking t is very hard to actually jump to a different tree, example you switching from Stealth to Range or Stealth to Support that 2 to points to tax, while yes their a benefit in it, they arn’t really needed since things like +25% suppression damage isn’t very good by it self, you can create a hybrid role but your not going to reach any of the keystones nor are you going to be able to sustain yourself on partiuclar focus. here is one of my builds i use.
this build is a all rounder with nothing it really excel at.
Keep their heads down is valid, but needs to be buffed to 100% to 150%, and FS needs to work out suppression balance with all weapons to make suppression builds viable. Otherwise I’m inclined to agree that it’s a waste of space and processing power. The fact that FS’s conception of suppressive fire equals firing a shotgun, revolver or bolter shot into a crowd of shooters is tabletop RPG BS. The only guns with suppression stats that actually seem to do anything are these three and they don’t have enough reserves or mag capacity to be worth a damn in said role. It’s just RPG nonsense introduced to make melee builds more survivable against shooters. Also, the 0.25 node will never be a tax node even after the vet got his regen start malus removed. All of your deadshot builds should have one or both of those nodes in it, it feels amazing. The toughness dmg reduction should just be rolled into one of the other nodes that does the same.
On Tactical Awareness. . . You serious? I’m not trying to meme or insult here, I’m just amazed that anyone could see it as a bad Talent. Tactical awareness should be core on all your vet builds, and if you can’t figure out why I can’t help you do so man, I don’t think anyone could.
they arn’t really useful since too benefit you need to have multiple hits to reach the suppression meter of most enemies, it easier too kill them, i typically use the Surgical and Onslaught Lucius MK3 Hellbore. it easier for me to kill then Suppress, and most Weapon’s are also like this as suppression is only really helpful when your Target’s aren’t spread out.
Tactical Awareness now Only effects Specialist (Sniper’s, Trappers,ect). it not eliltes which kind of Narrow’s it down when your going to be competting for killing specialist to generate the cool-down.
I agree-ish, although that would get in the way of build diversity since they actually made it easier to combine lower end ult modifiers now. Personally I feel like all the bottom ult modifiers should get this treatment, but if left in my suggestion about the tree section transition nodes above should make these nodes being there a non-issue otherwise.
build diversity is gone really since your kind of lock, if you take the most direct route to that talent. you got 13 points left, that not that many to explore the other parts if you collect go all the way down to the Keystone you got 4 points, this if you include buying both of the voice of Command upgreade
Agreed, it should be rolled up into the inspiring presense node IMO or it could be rolled into whichever tax node is placed in the transition section a between these columns and the ults.
I think if Fat Shark really doesn’t know how to make a skill tree, they can directly turn the skills into cards. Players can combine 30 cards from 300 cards and use them as their own professional deck
As a note i did roll a Marksman Focus setup that kind of worked last night but with some HEAVY caveats, the heaviest one being that i used the mod that lets your add scopes to weapons such as adding one to the hellebore.
Being able to click heads at a distance, land crits, and get free ammo was a lot better when i could actually see what i was shooting at. Even then it still had the problem of survival just not being there and the longer i play this update the more i wonder “why the F doesn’t the marksman focus keystone have ANY survivability aspect?”.
So yeah if you have a mod that fundamentally changes a core feature of the game it makes it a lot better.
Rewatching my Vraks7 (with Ghost) footage, I am rolling multiple, continual Confirmed Kills in firefights as I take out rows of Gunners while Ghost lets me maintain.
But also, there’s the Tunnel Vision augment node. Admittedly, I haven’t used it because of the talent point crunch, and I don’t even understand how it works, but it is a toughness node for MF.
Anyone know how it functions?
I’d quit instantly if they introduced burn cards here.