ok, i did some more runs, i’ve had to sacrifice this
and a cuple of perks on my curios, to get +15% health, with the health penality is unplayable for me
i got this perk
and got 5% health on all my 21% curios, it sucks, a lot, but now its playable
i play with focus target, it will never be like the old marksman perk, but for boss killing is decent, never bother doing it with elites or specials, i just tag them as normal, i dont need extra damage with those
Almost never use the ads, its way too buggy to use. Basically there is no other weapon, besidea maybe the Plasma Gun, for dealing with waves of melee elites.
I run a Squad Leader focus target boltgun woth regenning shredder frags to be a full stagger support and it works well. You chew through ammo, but you have multiple ways to CC scary enemy groups to keep yourself and your team alive. Even if you don’t manage to kill everything, you’ll hopefully stagger enough to get enough time to reload for another volley or drop a nade, especially if you have melee support.
Obviously if a boss shows up you can drop them down fast to stop it from turning into a bad situation. However I will say that this recent patch hurt this build more than it helped, because now it’s a waste of points to get confirmed kill and a reload talent which really, really sucks. Might do some more tinkering and see if the toughness regen on target kill Focus has is enough to replace confirmed kill.
I have successfully ran (and won) this build on 1 high int shock troop and 1 monstrous specialists. Not a ton of experience in the new patch but I’ll keep trying and ironing it out.
I’d love for you to tinker with it if you are in the mood for it. I tried that basic concept both in patches 13 and 14 and it was around C tier. If you get something out that is at least B+ or A let me know.
The issue I had with it is that the ammo supply isn’t really enough for doing general anti-special work and to blow up elite blobs unless there is another anti-special… specialist in the team and if you decide to frontline you are in a bad spot to draw it. On the other hand, I can take care of elite blobs just fine with Catachan/PS Revolver/laspistol or nades if the blob is very dense. I don’t even feel Bolter is that bombastic in that case especially compared to running it on Zealot.
So far the only suggestions I see from people who don’t have a problem with this new tree is “Just use the plasma gun lmao.” I want to be able to use other guns. Specifically I’d like to keep my Lucius Lasgun and Shovel build. So if people can tell me a Damnation build for those two weapons, using this tree, maybe I’d be more optimistic. As it stands with the Lucius’ current sights, it’s very difficult to get headshots reliably. It’s better to just use charged body shots most of the time. But SO many of the current perks for ranged combat relies on headshots to get bonus damage. So tell me, what do I do if I want to keep using my Lucius and Shovel combo?
Even plasma isn’t as good now. It’s better compared to other vet choices, but an Executioner+Plasma build is extremely fragile with minimal cannon for the glass. It was super-good in patch 14, now it’s really sweaty.
Focus target with middle and left upgrade, together with shock trooper should be ok.
Edit: Also, if you really don’t want to hit any heads you probably have to rely on crits, so t4 surgical is a must. Otherwise breakpoints don’t look realy great
I think that’s kinda closer in comparison, but it’s still not there. Slaughter stacks super quickly with very little skill required.
Uncanny is also close to requiring weakspot hits, but that’s also easier to stack since weakspot hits are comparatively easier to hit than ranged weakspot… and it only needs hits not kills. Pinning fire on the other hand just needs you to hit stuff… Ghost has a very different bonus but that one requires just hits.
It’s like combining the requirements of Slaughterer and Ghost into one with a ramping damage boost. The boost is also useless if you are one-tapping anyway and feels bad if you don’t… Although you can then just rely on the stacking while standing still thing… Which roots you in place which is also bad.
Sorry for the rambling, I really like you mentioned this, didn’t even think about this angle. Kinda fleshes out my problem with it.
It’s less a matter of not wanting to hit heads, and being able to reliably hit heads with the Lucius sights. Also will the Lucius be ok without suppression immunity and extra ammo?
It works pretty well, I’d say they’re both are at the same level, but the revolver is easier to work with only because it’s more mobile. It’s really good IMO, in general shotgun vet is probably S tier along with melee revolver vet. IMO, problem is the skill expression spectrum for it is ret@rded. If you’ll forgive a tortured metaphor: If Earth is your starting point, and the skill ceiling is somewhere by Pluto, the floor starts at Venus. You gotta be really sweaty to make the most out of it, but again, the skill floor for it is inane. So people try it, get their sh^t pushed in and then declare it a bad weapon. And no, I’m not one of those people, I have seen them, I can do ok with shotguns, but I’d rather stick to my autoguns.
Honestly, if anything about them is changed, they need a mobility buff across the board, maybe some more dmg for the lawbringer, and the kantrael and agrip need to be a bit more generous with their breakpoints so you don’t have to min-max the sh^t out of your build to get to them.
With surgical you will crit very often, so shock trooper should take care of ammo sustain. (you can even go without survivalist on mkIII, not sure about others)
As for suppression idk, i never noticed it. i used to deal with suppression on my own. If you feel like you need it just trade middle keystone upgrade for it.
Yes, late in the left branch “Critical hits not consume ammo from las-weapons”
Ehh. Running health-based Vet with no stam regen delay? This just sounds wrong. On paper, it seems like a commander build not a melee build (which would be right side build). I tried basically the same in patches 13-14 and it was bad (with 1 stam 1 T 1 HP curio). Seems worse on paper, but tagging might save it. I try it out, but I’m very doubtful… Any more recommendations? Melee weapon choice, Bolter blessings/perks, etc.
I decided not to leap to conclusions yesterday until I’d been on a few runs, although how often this thread has been updating with replies made me somewhat worried. Now that I have been on a few runs, I’m not impressed with the changes. The Keystones are not ideal, and generally my Veteran is now weaker. Great. What fun. I should have known that a game giving me everything that I wanted to play in 40k - a Guardsman - would end up shafting me. I do not get how they’ve built the tree. When I go to create a build with my Ogryn, or my Psyker, or my Zealot, there isn’t much deliberation and once the build is made I don’t have to think twice about, except maybe to swap things over to fine tune it to something I’m happy playing with.
My Guard builds feel terrible before I’ve even gotten into the missions, no matter which way I go through the tree. I don’t feel like I’m getting much with all those things I’m putting points into, and in general this has had a knock-on effect with weaponry and my effectiveness as part of a squad. I can happily blast away with the Kickback on my Ogryn, or slice things to pieces with the Zealot - I’ve not played my Psyker in a while though - but everything just feels worse on my poor bloody Guardsman. Prior to this patch Heresy was my lazy stroll through the game, now its become something of a struggle. I love Voice of Command but everything else?
Something a friend came across earlier in the day sums up my feelings on the Keystones:
tldr: You can play Bolter, but its painful and worse than Revolver, PG, braced pina, or infanty columnus in every way.
Played half a dozen games today with Bolter. Mainly to check if any Keystones magically make it not a hassle, but fun. Iam not going to surprise anyone when I say It is not. The Bolter is just… so uncomfortable for what it brings to the table.
I dont know how other people do it, but I can not play without Executioners on the Boltgun. The swap speed kills me and the Breakpoints, in my experience, are just not there without it.
The “best” runs, which were still a clusterf!ck, this being one of them, were with the middle Keystone, or none. No Keystone has much better ammo sustain, and suppression immunity. Focus Target mainly just also gets you an equal amount of constant damage as Superiority Complex, and a random amount of Toughness every couple of seconds, but I cant fit Counter Fire, which hurts a lot.
Right now Executioners Stance does not work with Weapon Specialist at all. When that is fixed, bad Idea or not, Iam gonna try again with “Always Prepared” and “On Your Toes”.
I hope you can find a way to have more fun.
