i feel like fatshark wants to keep the success rate of legion+ games under 20% … maybe less. it seems that fatshark thinks we’re not struggling enough on legion+. thus the changes. our goal should be convincing fatshark that it is ok not to struggle on legion+.
I’ve spent too much time thinking about this for my own good - but I think this is the crux of the problem with legend feeling much harder. It’s not the changes to the combat mechanics that make it harder - it’s changes to the AI director ramping up the level of chaos that is possible.
The thing is, specials typically spawn in a few waves (and in pairs on legend) right before and during the waves of a horde. The numbers of specials HAVE been increased over the old legend. In addition, you also have horde waves mixing in elites - SV’s, monks, maulers, etc. So you frequently have a situation of needing to CC the trash while dealing with high damage armored guys mixed in (and trying to dodge their crippling attacks) - and then all of a sudden you get two gutter runners or double globadiers.
The presence of elites mixed into hordes compounds the difficulty of dealing with the specials during the horde because with the elites in your face it’s much harder to make space to safely kill the specials at range. Even if a teammate gets downed nearby to a hit or disabler, it’s much harder to rez them when there are multiple elites combined with range specials that break your block and interrupt the rez. In my experience, this is where the wipes happen despite seemingly good play and teamwork.
All of the above issues are MAGNIFIED immensely when it’s beastmen during the horde. The sheer size of gors makes it very difficult to see, let alone shoot through, the meatwall to kill specials. Moreover, the beastmen are quite tough and harder to CC than other enemies, so creating the space to take out specials at range is made even harder.
One recourse is being far more strategic (and communicative with your team) about where you are engaging and holding off a horde. You need space to maneuver and fall back in case of a gas rat bombardment. If a gunner shows up you need to be able to retreat around a corner and get out of line of sight. Ranged characters need to have some space to work and take out specials, with room to dodge random mobs that slip through the line. You still want to limit the angles of approach so you can better CC the hyperdense mobs, etc.
In short, position, position, position is the name of the game.
This adds a much greater burden onto legend if you want to be successful, which is a notable shift from pre WoM where dodge dancing meant you really didn’t need to think about positioning much at all once you mastered the basic dodge dance routine. With dodge dancing, team cohesion wasn’t really necessary at all. It now is.
EDIT: I’ve only had a small number of legend runs since WoM where the team played like a team. Even one person thinking about positioning that says “come here” can make a difference to getting the team grouped up. The runs where I had a solid team, we breezed through legend. When you don’t have that, it’s a total gamble with very low odds of success (below 10% in my experience).
Well I found this topic late?
A little too easy? Dynamic? Needed rhythm?
The fun part I can’t argue since I can see that point of view, but all I remember was being immortal and using macros.
Literally you could equip an AP weapon, hold down an auto attack macro and circle dodge your way around hordes, patrols monsters and whatever just by spamming the button.
Even if I didn’t do it, though it was almost as hard to try and override the muscle memory, there were group members who would.
This is something I’ve brought up back in pre-WoM when there were topics about the game being too easy and it’s something I will stand by. The dodge was excessively easy and, imo, needed an adjustment.
In hindsight, doing 1 change at a time would have been a better choice, and I would have started with dodge myself. I strongly believe even just doing that would have changed the difficulty landscape a bit, but not so drastically that it would impact the casuals in such a way.
I wonder if anyone has the actual numbers. I don’t know… maybe like Fatshark? What I’d like to see is how many purchases of the WoM were made divided by the active playerbase (say at least one game launch in the last couple of weeks to a month). Something tells me, that the above quoted statement is not entirely true.
No idea either! I can however tell you something completely anecdotal.
Out of the 120 steam friends of mine who play V2 with varying degrees, from a few hours to thousands, only 29 have bought WoM. Of course, this includes people who don’t enjoy the game or play as much etc.
I can only suspect sales haven’t been that great, but yeah, anecdotal.
Closest we have WoM Community Poll Patch 2.0.7
Nah, not representative.
That pool is very much representative, most people don’t like current situation of the game, it’s complete mess, with insane amount of bugs and broken systems, without proper incentives… we’re basiclaly playing some experimental build… and reviews are showing even worse feedback then the 2.0.7 pool, Smoker created.
It’s a fallacy to theorize without data. Unless we have actual real money making numbers, these are all conjectures. It’s like saying that 99% of people hate Britney Spears after asking opinions on a Motorhead concert.
What are you talking about did you see the poll, do you read forums and reddit, were you in the beta ? The polls are data. The expansion reviews are data… important data.
Great expansions don’t have “mostly negatives” reviews, people complaining all over the official forums, steam forums, reddit …
It sure is not, this metaphor is sharing no similarities with what is going on here.
These forums are not full of anti-WOM players, there is wide variety of people who are more interested in the game than average guy. And then if you look at the big reddit posts, that were created after the 2.0 landed on official realm, then there you get idea how wider playerbase feels, and the sentiment was even worse than here on forums. People mostly being in agreement about major screw ups, some replies were at like 500 upvotes…
Those sure are not amazing, since all the negative feedback, people disabling WOM and other umgak that is going on… and even if in some weird scenario those numbers were decent, than it’s still epic fail because lots of people is pissed about this fiasco therfore they are losing long term players, they are not expanding the community.
If you want to work on game for many years, you most probably need happy community, not community that is complaining about things for year and half and those are still not being adressed …
I don’t want to write another multi page post on what a failure WOM is, so I will stop here. There has been written enough already.
I’m not arguing about the state of the game. I’m just saying that the ultimate goal of making a game is selling it - therefore that is where one needs to look. Since we can’t do it, we try to poll different subsets of the playerbase here, on Steam, on Reddit etc. But slapping “Negative” on a poll does not prevent people from buying the expansion and playing on. Hell, I know people who have rage fits about gameplay issues (not VT though), but they still play on - it’s just how addiction works I guess.
Yes but they said many times, that they are in it for the long term.
In that case they are doing everything wrong, since for a long term you can’t have people mostly being pissed and leaving the game while new expansion having very negative feedback (and providing close to no content for average player - basically only weapons and beastmen after they get balanced - still did not happen after nearly month… ffs). That’s the worst possible scenario one can be in, even if the $$$ were great. Which they sure are not… I would be happy to bet that this expansion is not doing well at all.
I did talk to many ppl on my friendlist, which are mostly the more hardcore players, and even those will tell me “hey I can’t play weaves with you, because it’s WOM only and I’m not supporting this umgak” or “sorry I’m taking break, this is just horrible, hopefully they will get it somehow together few weeks/months” etc.
I was never getting this kind of responses before.
Well there are exceptions, the big fans, that will play even when they game is not doing well at all, but even those will at some point break and just give up because of all the frustration.
Like for example me, I am pretty big fan, I got the DLC… I don’t care that much about 20 euro, but I’m getting more and more irritated by what FS is doing and thow they are unable to fix basic stuff and also can’t see for who the f… knows why the major problems, like the screwed up leaderboards because people can “cheat” their way to the top by just getting invited by top groups and completing some easy high weaves …
These and other similar things are like last drops into my already overflowing bucket of patience. Which is mostly filled by stuff like : not fixing reported bugs, pushing broken untested patches, not fixing stuff community screams about for over a year… not having proper rewards, creating terrible systems like weeklies or current weaves and so on… and all this while being told it won’t work 100 times.
It could be written by Grandfather Nurgle in a blazing trail of snot across the sky that WoM hasn’t been good at all, and some people would still say it’s been well received and there are people having a blast playing it. I’m sure there are, just not very many at all and although this time Fatshark might have covered their costs there is no business anywhere that can survive long by alienating customers - unless of course you’re some kind of low quality burger bar who turns up at a festival, serves a load of Sh*t knowing you’ll never see those customers again. This isn’t a good business plan for an online game.
When WoM is such a downgrade to the game that people are disabling it then that’s evidence enough for me that it’s backfired - of course there might be enough sales to justify the man-hours worked but it won’t justify the battering the reputation of the game (and the company) has taken.
Fixing the backstab whoosh has made a big difference to me, I guess I was just one of the players who didn’t look behind often enough so that bug (and all the others) has given me personally a horrible experience for the first couple of weeks of play. Launching things so buggy has done far more damage that the possibly perceived terrible content of WoM.
I suppose what’s really saddening that even once WoM is passably bug-free, the exact same issues that have been annoying players since launch are still there. Nothing to do with scrap/dust/jewellery parts… so no reason to open the 300+ chest I’ve got scattered across various types, no reason to ever do a deed unless I just fancy it (Why do a deed for a lesser chest that just adds to your dragon hoard of uselessness?) No point going into the weekly events apart from novelty factor and no way to get the hat I’ve wanted for 1200 hours. If they’d just done those things instead of WoM Each Dev would probably be wallowing in a swimming pool full of cash.
I hope somewhere in a meeting there’s frantic planning on how to get Lohner’s Emporium and a Deed Rework front and centre to try and recover some of this debacle.
I want to share this https://www.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/bt9gn2/community_needs_survey_analysis_report_data_come/ I don’t have time now to put more thought on the matter, but this was done by almost as many people as there were monthly players.
This is true. AI director has some problems and sometimes it gets crazy. We can have 5-6 disablers simultaneously. Another example is Skittergate: sometimes, during final boss, AI spawns only monks.
True. There are some talents that force players to compete (in a coop game).
Time changes things. Even a game can develop and change. Now it is sometimes more difficult … so what? There are enough levels of difficulty.
Yes, you could make a new one between Legend and Cata, or a new one after Cata, however there is always something to improve.
But why do so many people want a quick and easy Loot? What value does success have if it was cheap or simply bought?
There are enough games that meet the need for easy and fast success, but play something like this and do not spoil the fun of others.
I really can’t understand why people keep crying.
Most of all I see Soul 23 howling in my head. If you would use the time to get better in the game instead of posting here all the time, you wouldn’t have to torture yourself on Legend. It’s mostly the players who screw up the game and not any mistakes in the game.
I could make a list of mistakes that players make all the time, especially on Legend because they think they’re ready for Legend, but that’s beyond the scope of this. Find nice friends and play with them, then after enough practice we’ll be able to create all the levels and don’t need to create 1000 threats here where you describe how bad the game is supposed to be. And if you see it that way, finally play something else…
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
True. We aren’t talking about to make Legend too easy. But we need an half way. Fatshark can’t force us, a year after the game’s release, to find a group. Not everyone can do this.
You can be an expert endgame player, but without a premade, the win ratio will be bad because you can’t carry anymore.
This could be right for Cataclysm, but if an expert player can’t play Legend there isn’t progression, and it means dead game.
It is not.
I think I might argue that in general the AI isn’t that bad and manageable - it’s just the MASSIVE difficulty spikes are always too many specials. Flamer + 2 gunners on Convocation in the little downstairs-button room (to get the grim) and 2 players down and out without much chance to do anything. 2 hook rats + assassin the moment we blow a hole in the wall with a cannon and jump through. ON the flip side there’s sometimes only 2 specials with nothing else happening. Fairly easy to do.
There’s making things difficult, then there’s making things difficult because game insta-deletes two players.
This is now forcing a weird meta of knowing “inside” things - where exactly are boss triggers, horde triggers, where specials are likely to appear. Having to use meta-gaming of the level design to succeed is a bit of a big ask.
@Ony players play games for entertainment and in-game rewards. I agree with you that people should play at the difficulty they are comfortable with, but all of the key rewards are in Legend. Some people will NEVER be ready for legend because they don’t have the time or skill to do so.
Those people still would like the nice skins, or glowy weapons, or frames. Poor design of rewards for players at all levels is forcing people into Legend. This is why you get level 10’s join, or HS with Exe sword, some other weak build or lower skill person. Add in the fact Champion + Twitch STILL doesn’t get players ready for legend and you have a learning curve that is almost vertical to get from Champion to Legend.
Fixing bugs first, then balancing beastmen is good. Rewarding players no-matter what their skill level is could be a very good way of stopping the weaker players forcing themselves into Legend and might prevent some of the arguments that people just need to get better, and would ALSO stop some of the arguments that the game is too hard.
Some of the more deep seated underlying problem therefore is that Legend is the only way to get access to the very rare good loot. Spreading loot acquisition out across difficulties would reduce the bottleneck of players (of all abilities) piling into Legend.
Players clamour for frames whenever there is something on offer. BIG demands for the beta-testing frame. Huge uptake on the caption contest for the Eternal Serpent Frame. Cosmetics are a BIG THING and are forcing people to play at a difficulty they’re just not ready for.