There were no further nuances, just a simple question as I consider 2.0 vastly superior to 1.x. The points you made I basically see reverse. I can’t see a single point where 1.x was better aside from stability and even that is dated. So we can’t do much other than disagree here.
Even I wouldn’t be evil enough to gimp it down to 1 %. But add all double weapons (like Mace and Sword) and I will support 2 %. On the other hand 20 % seems to high for me, that is basically every fifth hit. Ignoring the numbers for now, I agree and repeat as I said myself before, changing the trigger condition to simple hit (percentage dependent on weapon) away from crit chance will be the best choice. It is far easier to balance and will not result in a constant uptime anymore. Crit chance triggered traits have shown problems over the complete life span of the game.
Independent from this trait being good or bad, I don’t feel like this is a melee trait, more like a charm trait. But the idea with the different sizes has something humouros.
Aside from the broken nature and the more than necessary needed nerf to its uptime (or other effects), there is indeed a problem with other traits. The first problem is that most defense based traits are unattractive for the regular Cataclysm player (so in a sense this whole discussion is kinda skewed) as they are fairly proficient in defense. They just don’t need these traits no matter how strong the are.
The second is that Off-Balance and Parry are kinda unfitting for a horde based game, especially off-balance because you need to find the time to attack the previously blocked enemy. In a 1vs1 fight this trait would be superiour.
All this said, I fear we will not come around by adjusting the current existing traits but have to throw some out of the window and get some new for them. For the moment we will ignore the technical issues by introducing a new trait set which leaves us with hundreds of thousand outdated weapons in players inventory. We could just keep all traits and give player direct control over the trait but even then, having 10 traits will confuse people. So we should aim to have something about 5-6 traits which have an actual effect:
Swift Slaying: Will stay the same from the effect but as it is to powerful it can’t be up all the time. Trigger condition will be changed to percentage hit ranging from 3 - 12 % depending on weapon.
Opportunist: Will stay the same, as it works well on some weapons already. It can be discussed if a secondary effect should be added to increase stagger power against attacking enemies for hits (this would benefit Shields even more as they usually alternate between pushes and bashes, would also benefit crowd control weapons in general)
Parry: Can’t decide on this, not enough experience
Heroic Intervention: The idea is nice and I support everything related to teamplay but for now I have no idead how to make this trait working without being overpowered (and being abusable)
Ressourceful Combatant: Will stay the same, due to the adjustment of Swift Slaying it will become far more attractive, especially on Crit Careers
Slider: New trait, will allow your weapon to slide past shields and armor so that enemies behind can staggered too. More of an utility trait which would benefit certain crowd control weapons
One more: New trait, will increase your cleave for one more hit at half hero power, would benefit single damage weapons like the axe without making them overly broken
Swift Feet: New Trait, Block movement penalty will be cut in half
So for the melee traits my rooster would consist of: Swift Slaying, Ressourceful Combatant, Slider, One More (Offense Traits) and Opportunist, Parry and Swift Feet (Defense Traits)
Hm, that are seven traits. Seven is a good number.
I hope FS look at this thread because there is a ton of good and detailed analysis in the original post and comments.
My 2 cents on varying topics:
Melee Traits(The SS elephant):
There’s a solid back-and-forth above me. I can see the argument for why it should be nerfed for being an obvious outlier (in a way that limits the frequency of it’s proc), but I also feel like it would be less dominant if more weapons were better/viable, and there were more offensive traits to choose from.
Weapon and gameplay balance is another chaos-rift in itself, but my general feeling is that most of the non-meta weapons are either too slow/immobile, have too low stagger/cleave/armor-piercing, or have bad attack arcs/patterns (2.0 screwed over some of them (Bardin’s pickaxe, axes), but others were mediocre even before WoM (Sienna’s mace, 1hS. Elf’s 2hS). SS compensates for many of these problems, and I think melee weapon balance should be addressed (buff the bad weapons to make them better/fun) before SS changes.
I think buffing/reworking/adding offensive traits to compete with SS is a better and more fun approach anyway. It’s odd to me that so many of the melee traits are so weak/defensively oriented in such a fast-paced mob-killing game where offence is the best defense. There are some interesting ideas on this thread already. Here are mine:
Combine Off Balance, Opportunist, and Perry so that blocking/parrying/pushing an enemy triggers the damage increase but only for damage dealt by that player (Perry/Opportunist function normally). Or keep the afflicted’s damage-vulnerability-from-all-sources and reduce it to 10%
Combine Heroic Intervention and Resourceful Combatant so that RC triggers when HI does, in addition to it’s normal proc (but not vice versa), and get rid of or reduce the ‘can only trigger once every 4s’ clause.
+% weapon-power on kill stacking up to 25 or even 50 (granting different values based on enemy hp similar to temp-health talent) lasting x seconds, or maybe until switching weapons or taking damage.
+10% increased weapon speed and +25% cleave , for heavier low-stamina low-crit weapons, and just to see if ppl would use it over SS
5% increased movement speed, +1 effective dodge, +10% dodge distance, attacks apply 2% bleed damage over 5 seconds, stacking up to 10% (kite build for light weapons)
My proposed traits might be in the vein of powercreep, but I think Swift Slaying ‘absolutely having to change for the sake of the game’ is a bit of an overstatement. Trait/Talent/Weapon balance is clearly something FatShark struggle with, since in almost every category there are obvious optimal/sub-optimal choices. SS has been unchanged since the game’s release, and I don’t think it’s the reason anyone is quitting. I love this game, but it’s been a total mess(hammer) since launch in so many ways. If anything the increased pace/killing-power SS brings is fun and healthy for the game (traits are supposed be a bonus/reward) and with Deeds/Cata/Twitch/Mods there is no reason ‘powercreep’ is a bad thing. Challenging gameplay and increased trait power/significance aren’t mutually exclusive.
Ranged Traits
Are in a pretty good spot balance-wise. Almost all of them are useful on certain weapons/careers as detailed by the OP and comments above. The only two exceptions are:
*Inspirational Shot is worst trait by far, being both extremely situational in it’s usage and insignificant in it’s effect. Granting a damage-reduction aura or temp-health aura would be better, but it would probably still unused.
Heat Sink is viable only with Pyro on Beam and (maybe) Bolt, but it was much better and more fun pre-2.0 when it could actually reduce overheat. Pyro already has a talent to generate 0 overheat on special-kill, can generate thp with ult and vent, or just clear overheat on ult, so having another tool to reduce overheat isn’t breaking anything. It also has no interaction at all with the Flamestorm Staff and Drakegun, which seems odd since there are only 2 heat-based traits and only 7 heat-based weapons in the game. Thermal Equalizer and Barrage/Hunter are generally better.
Neck Traits
Seem fairly balanced to me. Cool that Barkskin is good now. Boon has always been good. Their effect on the game is pretty minimal in general. I don’t think anything really needs adding/changing
Natural Bond was deemed ‘weakest’ by OP, but I like it on any class that deals with overheat/venting. But it helps having someone with heal-share or Hand of Shallya in the party.
Healer’s Touch is viable w/ RV and is otherwise sub-optimal. It’s slightly more valuable on Cata or non-book runs.
Hand of Shallya again, is viable w/ RV, and has more value on non-book runs. HoS would be better if the heal-share talent (“Healing yourself with a First Aid Kit or a Healing Draught also heals your nearby allies for 20% of their maximum health. Removes any wounds.”) also triggered when you healed an ally, granting you an additional 20% maximum health heal.
Charm/Trinket Traits
Pretty sparse, decently balanced for what they are. Explosive Ordinance is the least useful, maybe add a blind effect or increase the base-damage of the grenade.
I also share this opinion that powercreep in a co op pve game isn’t a bad thing, unless it breaks gamemodes like kaboom bw or like ult beam pyro or/and there isn’t any new content coming out. About ss in general i think ss is a fun trait but it’s gonna be hard to make other traits worth it over ss, they could Bring ss down a little bit because it’s a generalist trait and having, for example 10% as would still be fine imo and then make the ‘weapon specific’ traits a bit stronger, ofcourse not so it’s never worth taking ss.
It’s weird how the balance of all Weapons is dependent on one Trait, and kind of frustrating too. Some of my suggestions, such as Crit% in Mining Pick’s Push-Attack, are based on having the current version of SS. It makes it hard to theorize a good way to balance Weapons if we’re unsure of the direction they’ll take.
This is why the SS Crit proc mechanism has been called into question, as it seems to mainly benefit some of the better and already fast Weapons in the game right now.
The problem I had with this Trait was that Shade and Pyro could both take 40% CDR and then use this. Since they’ve changed Pyro’s Ult to deal less Cleave, and Shade can no longer take 30% CDR, I’d be quite happy if they made this proc a little more.
I have to disagree here. The problem is both other Traits being too weak and SS being too strong comparatively (being the obvious ‘best-choice’ and limiting trait diversity, not in actual function/gameplay).
No other trait being above a B is the real issue, and makes SS’s S+ status more glaring. Offense isn’t just the best defense (threat elimination, temp health generation, cdr), it’s also the core essence of the game. Offence is fun. Killing enemies is fun. Becoming a more effective rat-killer through leveling, gear refinement, skill advancement is what the game is about. Blocking/Pushing/Parrying are good defensive/team/skill mechanics and there should be solid defensive traits to encourage those tactics, but the lack of offensive traits (SS and RC (barely) being the only 2) seems like the true problem to me. There are classes/weapons that can’t block/push spam and are somewhat reliant on light-attack spamming to be effective.
Pyro’s ult dies as soon as it hits armor anyway, and RC was never really a problem on her melee (it was the ranged version that made wigglemancer possible, and that was double-nerfed out of existence by changing both the CDR proc on 1st hit of an enemy and the triggers-once-per-4s cap. BH, WS, and Pyro can still make it work, but it’s easily bottom 3 w/ tied for 2nd with Heat Sink, with Inspirational Shot being the (clear) worst.)
I’d love to see RC un-nerfed, but it is still another ‘proc on crit’ trait, and therefore only has value on certain career’s/weapons that generate crits frequently and have career skills worth spamming. SS is still universally better. but at least the gap would be closer.
The game needs offensive traits that don’t revolve around crits and actually give a meaningful benefit. Stuff like increased weapon-power, increased mobility, life-steal, burn/bleed damage that procs on kills/headshots/player-health-%/enemy-armor-type…or is simply an outright passive buff.
As I mentioned in the first post, AS is so incredibly versatile, it leaves all of the other Traits feeling too situational.
Attack faster (offensive)
Attack faster (defensive) E.g. land attacks and Stagger before enemy can, leaving smaller gaps between attacks
Temp HP generation
More likely to benefit from Stagger status
Uptime: compared to the majority of other Weapon Traits, it’s up for almost the entire duration of the map, should you be in Melee range
The point being, that if you changed it from AS to Crit, Power or Crit Power, it would be nowhere close to the same level of usefulness across every single Weapon.
However, I’d rather see either the proc mechanism changes or even SS integrated into a hidden Weapon mechanic, letting us take the other Traits instead. Removing it or nerfing it would leave some Weapons feeling slower and more difficult to use in higher difficulties.
Another change, which is unlikely, is that they remove it altogether and just increase passive AS.
To make other Traits come up to it’s level, they would need to have good offensive and defensive uses.
This was a good example of that, other than the fact you can go a whole match without HI going off, but that’s a different discussion. :')
Another point, and one on Neck Traits, is that when they’re too situational (chance not to use heal, 50% heal when bandaging someone else, Parry), they just become outpicked by other Traits that are more regularly or passively useful.
I agree. Hopefully they have some fun with it. The problem I find with the current SS, is that the versatility makes builds so boring. We could sit here all night inventing fun DPS/defensive Traits, but faster attacks just trumps them all in a boring way.
Your proposed traits are definetely power creep. Extreme power creep even. 25 % more weapon damage? Seriously? Changing back RC despite it factual being proven to cause problems in the past? Combining ALL defense traits into one? Nothing in there even tries to be balanced. It is just "Chose your colour of nuking away everything.
And yes, power creep is a problem for any multiplayer game, less for single player games. Because it leads to earlier content being redundant because being to weak, for example if you get new overpowered weapons like Axe&Falchion which make Axe and Falchion look bleak. You could increase their stats true, but then the highest difficulty is not challenging anymore. So, either you introduce new difficulties splitting the community over now six difficulties instead of five. With more power creep new difficulties will be needed. I haven’t played it but i think I heard that Payday 2 ran into this problem.
Or you go the route of making the highest difficulty more challenging which causes the gaps between difficulties to be starker which hinders progression for new players. And if you scale difficulty and power side by side you could reach the same result without all power creep related problems if you would just balance from the beginning. Power creep IS bad, there are no buts and ifs. And it has to be avoided at all costs. So you can’t start with first buffzerking everything. You have two working choices, toning down what is to strong and minimally improving underperformers (although there aren’t many) at the same time OR just start with toning down and then check again. Starting with buffing is the worst balancing choice any developer can make and I don’t know any example where power creeping has worked well for a game.
And as Kitten has explained several times already Swift Slaying is problematic because Attack Speed has to many advantages. It is a clutch and makes other gameplay elements redundant. If you just hit fast enough you don’t need dodge, block or stagger at all because everything dies before it even has a chance to hit you (extreme case). So yes, for the sake of game balance Swift Slaying as it is right now has to die. As said earlier, I don’t think it is necessary to change its effect. But the uptime has to go from continuously activated to being activated at max half of the time. And even then it would be the strongest weapon trait because yes, it is that broken.
The easiest way is to change the activation trigger. The past has shown over and over again that crit based triggers cause problems. Two traits have been changed because of this already. And since you you can easily stack crit and many wepaons have inate crit chances, it is to reliable. So they should change the activation trigger to hit based percentage like in Vermintide 1. Fast weapons should have a trigger chance of 5 % or lower while slower weapons could have a trigger chance around 12 %.
Also, I’m against the notion that weapons become unuseable without Swift Slaying. There may be at best 2 or 3 weapons which heavily depend on it. But that’s it. Problem is that people are literally addicted to their speed craze. Faster, faster, faster and in the process degrading the game to hack n’ slash because you need neither team work nor anything else. Which again is a reason we need to get this addiction out of the community. And when people run out of arguments, they come with something stupid like it is “phhhuuuuun”. Which … yea, it is not because it makes part of the gameplay mechanics redundant.
In a post above I have mentioned at least two offense-orientated traits which increase options. But of course people ignored it because they are horrified by the idea that Swift Slaying gets even the smallest change because faster, faster, faster. Anything so I don’t have to actually work together or actually care about positioning. Without toning down Swift Slaying a trait rework will never work. As I mentioned before, in the attempt to get traits on par with Swift Slaying people suggested the most ridiculous power creep.
The other traits (except maybe Off Balance) are so bad/situational/boring that they could (and essentially have been, via SS) be removed from the game and the difference would barely be noticeable. Nobody would miss them.
Across every weapon? No. Slower weapons need the AS increase to avoid hit-trading. But, I think some of the faster weapons would gladly take an increase in raw Power, Crit Power, or endlessly stacking Crit Chance. Crits and slaying high-health enemies also generate Temp HP.
I think any of these would be competitive, or even outright better than SS. 50% power increase is huge and would enable breakpoints. Passive 10% AS and increased cleave would work for heavier weapons. Speed/dodge/bleed would be good for faster lighter low-stagger weapons.
As previously and frequently stated: offense is the best defense in general. Eliminating threats before they eliminate you is the essence of the game, and the big problem with the current melee traits is that they don’t contribute to that ideal. 4 of the 6 traits are a stall-tactic. They might help keep you alive for the moment, but they don’t decrease the threat-level around you, and you’ll eventually just get overwhelmed (think Convo of Decay or Fort Baconcruncher finale).
A proc mechanism change is probably the most likely outcome if FatShark does anything. There are already too many ‘hidden’ mechanics in the game, and removing it outright seems drastic (even coupled with a melee balance adjustment, which I think should be step 1 anyway)
Lol. I’ve never actually used HI so I wouldn’t know. Maybe it should proc on staggering any attacking enemy (not just backstabs) with a reduced Temp HP value. Maybe RC should apply both to the savior and the saved.
I respect you for speaking about balance alot, but who are we kidding, fatshark will never fully balance this game. If we look at how long it took them to ‘collect data’ on kaboom bw, a super obvious broken build, i have no idea how many years it will take to balance weapon tweaks etc. Maybe they are silently working on it, who knows, but i doubt it. Remember them saying in a dev post where they asked players what they think was wrong with sienna mace? It has literally been a month or more and still no change.
They have to fully change their approach and not just balance or tweak 1 thing at a time after 4 months. They should honestly make a big ptr build and do radical balance changes on there and let us test it. But they are a bit late to radically change everything now, so the best thing is to change small things, changing thing radically now would just cause another WoM
I just feel like fatshark themselves are still unsure in which direction to go and are testing a bit, still.
They’re an attempt to bring the power of other traits up to the level of SS, so they’re creep in that sense, yeah. I’m not suggesting a flat +25/50% buff. It has to be conditional. 10% might be more reasonable, but yeah, seriously.
RS (not RC) was the problem because of wigglemancer. Shade was really the only broken class with RC. Huntsman Pyro and BH benefited too, but I wouldn’t call any of them broken. (Current BH deleting bosses isn’t that different from Shade, Huntsman, and Pyro that all got nerfed in the past, and there isn’t mass outrage).
Because Parry and Opportunist are soooo useful and balanced by themselves. /s
Yeah…uh…that’s called THE GAME. You choose your color (career, weapon, traits/properties) and then nuke everything.
Yes, adding weapons to the game that are outright superior to current meta weapons would be egregious power-creep. But that’s not what we are doing here. The point isn’t to make new traits be universally better than SS. The point is to make them similarly powerful and fun (unlike the current traits we have) so that on certain weapons/careers they are better for doing something specific (breakpoints, mobility, bleed/damage). Just like the old/non-meta weapons should be brought in line with Axe and Fal.
This has already happened w/ the dlc weapons outshining almost all weapons from the original game (exceptions being fire-sword ( but only after it’s rework, which supports my point about buffing under-performing weapons/traits being a better solution than nerfing the ‘OP’ ones) X-sword, Rapier, a few Elf weapons, Salty’s flail, some of the shield weapons)…but there aren’t mass cries to nerf any of them because Legend, Cata, and all the other difficult game-modes are still challenging to anyone who isn’t in a pre-made squad of hardcore veterans.
Also, powercreep exists in pretty much every game that frequently releases new content (MOBAS, Card-Games, MMOs). The problem isn’t the creep itself, as long as the games are still challenging/interesting/balanced. Imbalance is the problem. When a certain hero/weapon/strategy is dominant then the game becomes less challenging/interesting, so either you nerf your new content or buff the old. The rising tide has to raise all ships.
In the case of V2, even with the meta-weapons in their current state, the game is still challenging (and can be made more challenging very easily for those interested). The problem is that having limited weapon/trait/talent/career options is uninteresting. That’s why the ‘bad’ weapons/traits/talents/careers need to be re-worked, which is the whole point of this thread.
Yeah, because SS and the current meta-weapons totally make Cata, Deeds, FoW, Twitch, and high-level Weaves un-challenging. And there is no such thing as the Modded Realm where players can go to increase the difficulty even further. /s
Sarcasm aside, 1000% weapon-power is meaningless if you can’t block/dodge/position/use teamwork. Specials will still disable you, Elites will still 1-shot you, ambushes will still backstab you, bosses will still corner you, or knock you off the map.
It is somewhat of a crutch in that it that allows players to block less and attack more (you still have to push and dodge), but the idea that you can go through a map on anything above Champion without dodging/pushing/blocking/teamwork is pure hyperbole and outright incorrect. See my text above this quote.
Also, I never ever in my 2000+ hours of playing V2 have said to myself “huh…I wish I’d gotten to block/dodge/push more that run.”
You mean as it has existed in the game since release? Suddenly now, 2 years later, after an atrociously buggy launch, the multiple 3-6-8 month periods between buggy, broken-mechanic-filled patches and mediocre DLCs, the absolute mess of 2.0 WoM and the initial Beastmen, and the pitifully stocked Emporium… now SS is the game-breaker and must be destroyed for the game to survive? You sure about that?
Because all the other options are BAD. That’s the real problem. Most of them don’t even have a tangible effect on the game. You can go through an entire map without procing or noticing them to the point where those weapon-traits might as well not exist, and that’s not FUN (which is the whole point of a game).
Yes. We are literal addicts. We disgrace the true V2 fanbase with our desire to hack and slash through enemies (totally not what this game is about) without waiting for someone with a shield to bash them over, or a staff to roast them first. “THIS IS PHUNNN” We chortle to ourselves, stupidly, our left index-finger firmly inserted in one nostril (because we don’t need the keypad) as we spam light-attacks, shredding through CWs and SV and Bosses with no thoughts of blocking, dodging, or using headshots and heavy-attacks. We don’t need teamwork or positioning. We are invincible. We have our mouse-sensitivity maxed so we can light-attack-spam in a 360 degree arc, and our swift-slaying-meth-powered attacks are too blazing fast for hook-rats and blightstormers and asssassins.
You must purge us from the true V2 community. This game isn’t supposed to be fun. The true V2 player knows that flawless teamwork and perfect gameplay balance must come before personal enjoyment. A true V2 player can parry endless attacks at +150 PNG. A true V2 player knows that hacking and slashing degrades this great game. One must block first! Then, and only then, once the 20%-damage-increase-proc has triggered, may a player attack. But not too fast! A true V2 player mixes in pushes…with 50% greater strength against those who would attack them, to stagger enemy CWs and Berserkers who would otherwise one-shot us…but not really, because our steadfast allies will defend us, and possibly (maybe…probably not) trigger a 15-temp-health buff as if we were blessed by Sigmar himself. But the kills and temp-health must be spread evenly for everyone. The scoreboard must also be eliminated, so addicts like myself can feel no pride or joy in our twisted “accomplishments”.
end of /s
For real, the point of playing a game is fun. Hacking and slashing through hundreds of enemies is fun. That’s why the game exists, and that’s why the mechanics are hack-and-slash based. Swift Slaying is fun.
What isn’t fun are traits so useless that you can’t even tell if they’re active, and have such minor effects that it doesn’t really matter when they do activate.
SS doesn’t break anything. The idea that you can run through maps without doing anything but spamming attacks is flat wrong. The idea that you can ignore your team/position is wrong. The idea that SS makes game mechanics redundant is wrong. (I don’t think you understand what redundant means). If you spam light-attacks at a CW’s body while they wind up for an overhand it does not have the same effect/result: you eating an axe and getting downed, as dodging/blocking (you survive). Same goes for most specials. Assassin, need to be dodge/pushed. Leech, need to dodge. Hook, need to dodge. Blightstormer, need to reposition. Gasrat, need to reposition.
Attacking is only redundant/superior to defensive action against trash mobs, which you’re going to mow down anyway, so who cares if it takes a few less blocks/pushes/seconds. It doesn’t matter.
So, it seems like you’re mad that someone ran ahead and died, or left your flank unguarded causing you to die, and you decided it’s because they were addicted to SS and not just because they were just an individual bad teammate. That’s gonna happen with or without SS in the game.
There’s a lot of things in this thread. But the core of the issue is ‘what you want legendary traits to become’.
If you nerf it too much, it will only be another property that you won’t actually see ‘working’. Another invisible ‘stat’ that you’ll have to spreadsheet to know of it’s useful or not.
If you buff others so that you can see a difference it will thematize thoses traits more.
The fact that in cataclysm, enemies attacks faster makes the reliance on attack speed a bit more important than on legend (if you wanna play slow weapons).
As I understood, the new system of properties/traits/talents was to remove “must picks”.
Like regrowth/bloodlust which are now talents for THP, Berserker changed to SS, killing blow or second wind.
Aside from these, I think V1 had a lot of interesting traits that could be brought in for variety.
Also a way to nerf SS, here is the old version, berserking and haste:
“When killing an enemy with this weapon, there is a 5.0 - 12.0% chance to to increase your attack speed by 40.0% for 5.0 seconds. Damage taken reduced for duration of the effect by 50%.”
“When hitting and enemy, there is a 3.0 - 7.0% chance to increase your attack speed by 30.0%, for 5.0 seconds. Ammunition is no longer consumed for a short duration after the effect triggers.”
Ofc, tweaking numbers is never out of the question.
Well, balance is complicated. This is not as simple as think as we just throw in our opinions. And perfect balance will never be achieved as everyone has a different idea about it. And that is one of the problems. FS knew that Kaboom was broken. However, they also knew how fickle the community and how bad they react if you remove their toys. THAT is why they took their sweet time, to make sure to have the numbers to justify the change and to make a suitable change. The other way around (like nerfing Beastmen) usually goes a lot faster.
Which is exactly what I have been preaching for half the thread (minus the reduced damage effect, and 40 % seems also a bit overkill). Don’t change the trait but the activation trigger and you can actually start balancing per weapon.
Which is the problem. If you balance you increase the bottom while you ground the top. Raising everything to the top is not balancing.
I only said it caused problems, not on whom and not how much. You just posted four lines agreeing with me, that indeed crit based triggers caused problems, exactly because we have different careers with different crit affinity (and that is ignoring weapon inate crits)
I see you haven’t understood these traits and their effects. Especially of Opportunist.
That is …. um… your Interpretation. The game is about the struggles against the odds in a team-based challenge-orientated gameplay. Taking a stroll while nuking everything left and right like in a cheap hack n’slash is not the point. But IF that is your thing, you can just play lower difficulties where you can exactly do that. However, telling other people to move away from the modes which can be played in PUGs without issues or even going to the modded realm because it should be “Nuking - The game” also on Cataclysm, THAT is extremely rude.
It is equally a prroblem if you bring everything to the top level. It is power creep nonetheless and again, I don’t know a single game where power creep had a positive effect. You mention MOBAS and Card-Games but you completely ignore that for one they are mostly PvP and also that in these game you regularly nerf stuff to keep everything in balance. For MMOs, yes they suffer from power creep and it is one of the more frequent general critics of any MMO. So, thanks for agreeing that power creep has to be avoided.
For something to be easily, it has to be within the limit to easily find public lobbies for it. So the upper limit is Cataclysm. On the other hand making the game more easy and nuking, that you can do by lowering the difficulty. Forcing people onto modded realm or twitch is just rude.
And yet we are talking about probability. The stronger/faster the weapon is, the less likely this stuff happens and the less you have to use other gameplay mechanics. It makes them redundant, not completely and I never said that. But the frequency you have to use them drops, significantly.
I agree, it should have happened much earlier as it has been shown earlier how much the crit based trigger is causing problems. However, the issue was also buried under other annoying stuff like super-dodge or ranged THP. And it would help you if you would read what People actually write. I did say for the sake of gameplay, not for survival of the game. The game will be played if it stays the same and I will tell you a secret, the game will also still be played if we actually balance the trait.
No, they APPEAR bad, they aren’t. Lackluster maybe, but not bad. They just pale against Swift Slaying which is why SS is the real problem. Also, I agree that fun is one point of games. I just disagree that the current Swift Slaying is fun or even interesting, just an overpowered mess. And the point is that your idea of fun is not everyones idea of fun which makes the argument of fun COMPELETELY pointless which is the point I made. You don’t have any numbers of what is fun for ALL people, neither of us has. So noone of us can use fun as a supporting argument for what they want.
Hm, there seems to be some misunderstandings. You think to seem you are witty. You are not. You seem to think that I am some kind of super-talented high-skill Veteran. I am not (for sake of discussion assume I’m at average/below average). You seem to think that only mindless hack n’slash is fun. It is not. Fun is dependent on the person which makes the argument pointless.
I don’t think you understand what redundant means.
No, I am mad that someone ran ahead and didn’t die like he should if he leaves the team in a team-based game. He runs ahead and wait, a horde he has to return. Aaand it is gone, killed by speedy gonzales. But wait, rush Intervention will send him packmasters. Aaaaandd it’s gone, killed by the player before they could complete the grab attack animation.
Learn to accept that other people have different ideas about fun. I accept that some people want to have the nuking hack n’slash. They can have their fun on Legend and below. The option is in the game. I don’t force anyone away from public lobbies. However, asking for power creep that will cause the same boring gameplay on Cataclysm and forcing other people away? Rude.
A game without SS, a game based on bad weapons like Falchio… ops, my fault, I meant weapons that APPEAR bad (indeed, if we nerfed A&F, Falchion would become so useful and fun)… I hope it remains a bad dream.
Few people talked about removing SS without compensation (like in the poll, I voted that if SS was to be removed or heavily reworked, weapons should get an attack speed buff).
Who said that? Who said nerfing things to falchion level? Almost everyone universally agree that weapons like the falchion, like the warpick and Sienna mace should be buffed, just not to the level of the strongest weapons currently in the game like billhook cause it would be power creep and would require some really heavy buffs.
Well it would be nice if you were more understanding of the other side instead of throwing these ridiculous strawman arguments around
I can’t understand your problem with my comment… Did I say that everyone want remove SS?
But, as you wrote, someone said “nerf SS without compensation”… And I think it’s totally a bad idea.
I just wrote my opinion. Someone said that certain weapons feel bad only because there are op ones… Instead I think that currently there are not over power weapons… The bad ones are simply bad.
And, like I wrote in the other thread, Billhook is a perfectly balance weapon with pro and cons… But I guess you don’t agree. It’s fine… I’m here only to explain (or sometimes simply “say”) my idea to the developers… I can’t and I don’t want write everytime a wall text or an infinite discussion.
P.s moreover this was just a reminder… If you look first posts, you will find a motivated big message that I wrote.
Instead of “only one party member can have this trait at a time” which makes it unapplicable in random games and such, I’d say “you do not benefit from another player’s Heroic intervention if you have Heroic intervention yourself.”
