Traits and Properties - Suggestion for adjustments

[Adelion]

Okay, just a suggestion for an adjustment of the Traits and Properties system. Overall, I think the basis as it is currently in the game is working but favours a few choices to feverly. I will not go into detail for the reasoning of each and every change as this will be long enough already. But for most of them there is a reasoning. Just some general words:

• Properties: In my opinion, properties are there to emphasize weapon strong points or weaken weak points. Not to add new strength or completely remove weak points. As such properties will always be of small value.
• Traits: Should create a bit more flexibility and be adjustable to the build. However, they shouldnt be the build defining element and should be generally a bit weaker than the best talents.

Overall, I am content with the Traits and Properties in the following suggestion and how they are spread over the equipment. There are still some issues to be regarded like all numers provided are merely a suggestion based on feelings and may need further adjustments. Some “core” changes though I deem necessary to make the system working at all. Also, I limited the number of Traits and Properties. More is always possible but needs a better crafting system then.
Obviously, the whole suggestion is personal opinion and personal preference will have flown into it. I tried to consider all playstyles though. Double obviously, this will be a long post and kinda messy. But Traits and Properties over all equipment kinda belongs together.

With this said:

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Melee (weapon related)

Traits:

Swift Slaying - Critical hits increase attack speed by up to 25% for 5 seconds​, less effective on fast weapons
Opportunist - Increases push strength by 50% when used against an attacking enemy
Coordinated Strike - Increased damage by 20 % for the first follow-up attack on same target as team mate, up to 100 %
Swift Winds - Increases Attack Speed by 2 % per hit up to 20 %, resets upon dodge, less effective for faster weapons
Coordinated Defense - Increased damage reduction for each other player close to you up to 20 % , more the closer they are
Parry - Timed blocks reduce stamina cost by 100% and Blocking an attack increases the amount of damage the attacker takes by 20% for 5 seconds
Ressourceful Combatant - Every 5 headshots recovers 5 % ammunition
Quick Reflexes - Automatically blocks a melee attack which otherwise would have hit every 60 seconds

(Sidenote: the calculation for attack speed boni granted by traits will be changed from [Current Attack Speed - Current Attack Speed * 0.2] to [Current Attack Speed - (Current Attack Speed - 0.3) * 0.35]

Properties:

+ 2 Stamina
+ 5 % Attack Speed
+ 10 % Damage Cleave ( + 1 Target alternatively ?)
+ 1 Dodge counter
+ 15 % Stagger Power
+ 30 % Block Cost Reduction
+ 10 % Power vs Skaven
+ 10 % Power vs Norsca

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Range (weapon related)

Traits:

Ressourceful Sharpshooter - Critical Hits reload weapon
Swift Movement - Movement Penalty for charged shots reduced by 50 %
Conservative Shooter - Landing a headshot replenish 1 ammunition, reduces ammo by 40 %
Scrounger - Critical hits restore 5% of maximum ammunition. Can trigger once per attack
Barrage - Consecutive attacks against the same targets boost attack power by 5% for 5 seconds
Heat Sink - Critical hits refund the overcharge cost of the attack
Thermal Equalizer - Weapon generates 20 % less overheat
Natural Instinct - Highlights Specials within a radius of 25 m
As you command - Killing an enemy 2 seconds after he has been tagged by another teammate grants attack power by 25 % for 5 seconds

Properties:

+ 10 % Power vs Skaven
+ 10 % Power vs Norsca
+ 10 % Ammo
+ 10 % Damage Cleave
+ 20 % Crit Power
+ 20 % Effective range
+ 7.5 % Dodge Range

---

Necklace

Traits (Health related):

Barskin - Taking damages reduces the damage you take from subsequent sources by 30% for 2 seconds. This effect can only trigger every 2 seconds
Phoenix - Healing items automatically used upon being downed, can not gain any THP at all
Natural Bond - Passively regenerates 1 health every 5 seconds. Healing from First Aid Kits and Healing Draughts are converted to temporary health
Boon of Shallya - Increases effectiveness of healing on you by 30%
Hand of Shallya - Healing an ally with medical supplies also heals you for 50% of your missing health

Properties (Defense related):

+ 1 Dodge counter
+ 2 Stamina
+ 30 % Block Cost Reduction
Damage reduction versus Skaven + 20 %
Damage reduction versus Norsca + 15 %
Damage reduction versus Beastmen + 30 %
Damage reduction versus AoE + 50 %
Damage reduction versus Disablers + 30 %

---

Charm

Traits (Temporary Boost related):

Storage - Drinking a potion will store its effect and activates automatically for the next active skill usage
Proxy - Consuming a potion spreads the effect to the nearest ally​
Decanter - Increases the duration of potion effects by 50%
Concoction - Drinking a potion grants the effect of all other potions. Duration reduced by 50%
Dilution - Potion effect will be reduced to 20 %. Duration will increase by 600 %
Sipping - Each potion can be used twice with half the activation time
Star of the Sisterhood - Potions are spread across each character with the Star of the Sisterhood trait. (Effective time reduced dependent on player numbers (33 %, 40 %, 50 %))

Properties (Offense related):

+ 5 % Attack Speed
+ 10 % Damage Cleave (removal due to different systems for melee and range?)
+ 10 % Power vs Infantry
+ 20 % Power vs Berserker
+ 10 % Power vs Armor
+ 10 % Power vs Specials
+ 20 % Power vs Monster
+ 10 % Ammo

---

Trinket

Traits (Bomb related):

Explosive Ordinance - Increases explosion radius by 50%
Shrapnel - Grenades cause hit enemies to take 20% increased damage for 10 seconds​ (Does not stack with itself)
Divinve Aim - Bombs do not cause friendly fire

Properties (Special Effects related):

+ 5 % Movement Speed
+ 30 % Stamina Regeneration
+ 33 % Curse Resistance
+ 30 % Revive Speed and Respawn Speed
+ 15 % Stagger Power
+ 20 % Crit Power
+ 7.5 % Dodge Range

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As said before. Just a suggestion which would also benefit talent balance in several ways although one or two talents/passives might need some adjustment. Core idea should be stable but especially the numbers might need tweaks.

[Incandescent]

@Adelion

Divinve Aim - Bombs do not cause friendly fire

@Adelion

• 1 Dodge counter

I like these, though the latter shouldn’t be available for necklaces

the rest is all pretty questionable at best.

[Throne_of_Rats]

Melee traits:

Swift Slaying - Critical hits increase attack speed by up to 25% for 5 seconds​, less effective on fast weapons

It wouldn’t really fix anything, as fundamentally more attack speed will always mean a better life in a game like this.

Opportunist - Increases push strength by 50% when used against an attacking enemy

tbh I wouldn’t mind a return of the old Devastating Blow trait.

Coordinated Strike - Increased damage by 20 % for follow-up attack on same target as team mate up to 100 %

Very situational and largely useless in the grand scheme of things. Most enemies are dead anyway long before something like this would be meaningful, but you don’t want the opposite situation either, where nothing will die unless you make use of this.

Swift Winds - Increases Attack Speed by 2 % per hit up to 20 % (new calculation), resets upon dodge

Completely useless. Dodge-dancing is a fundamental mechanic even for cumbersome weapons. You’d be nowhere without it and therefore you’d never crank this up to a meaningful value.

Coordinated Defense - Increased defense for each other player close to you up to 20 % , more the closer they are

The last thing this game needs is more DR honestly.

Parry - Timed blocks reduce stamina cost by 100% and Blocking an attack increases the amount of damage the attacker takes by 20% for 5 seconds

A reasonable if still rather useless change. I’m fundamentally against it as it would buff rapier BH even more.

Ressourceful Combatant - Every 5 headshots recovers 5 % ammunition

Maybe the numbers need more tweaking, but I really wouldn’t mind a return of the old melee Scavenger in one form or another. It’s a bit silly that careers like Waystalker have a single option for ammo generation.

Quick Reflexes - Automatically blocks a melee attack which otherwise would have hit every 60 seconds

So everyone gets a discount gromril armor? Probably not a good idea.

Melee properties:

@Adelion

• 10 % Power vs Skaven
• 10 % Power vs Chaos/Norsca
• 10 % Power vs Beastmen
• 10 % Ammo
• 10 % Damage Cleave
• 20 % Crit Power
• 20 % Effective range
• 7.5 % Dodge Range

There’s no point and largely no sense in splitting beastmen from chaos. If anything, beastmen are the rawest form of chaos you’re currently getting in this game. Also they’re rare enough at this point that no one would ever run that property. It’s not that it makes a difference even if they are around, since they don’t get meaningful elites or specials. I think the ammo supply is generally fine as it is, cleave is probably useless unless you reach the breakpoint where you cut through an extra target, but not sure how you can do that without a lot of extra perks/talents. Effective range and dodge range are not needed at this point imo. You already get some stupid dodge distances even with cumbersome weapons and not exactly agile careers if you know your footwork well.

Also, seriously? No more +5% crit chance, but trading in all that useless stuff? Never.

Ranged traits:

Ressourceful Sharpshooter - Critical Hits reload weapon

Completely useless.

Swift Movement - Movement Penalty for charged shots reduced by 50 %

Something like the old Verm1 Skirmisher before the buff. Completely useless. Nobody used it until it made the crosshairs remain accurate even while running/jumping.

Conservative Shooter - Every second headshot replenish 1 ammunition

A completely useless and unwarranted nerf.

Scrounger - Critical hits restore 5% of maximum ammunition. Can trigger once per attack

This is how it works at present, right? It’s fine imo.

Barrage - Consecutive attacks against the same targets boost attack power by 5% for 5 seconds

Same as above? I just strap it on certain weapons and forget about it. Probably fine.

Heat Sink - Critical hits refund the overcharge cost of the attack

Same as above but completely useless? I don’t think anybody runs this on anything. Maybe changing it to free casts for x seconds after a crit would make it relevant.

Thermal Equalizer - Weapon generates 20 % less overheat

A good trait. Nothing to add really.

Natural Instinct - Highlights Specials within a radius of 25 m

Completely irrelevant.

As you command - Killing an enemy 2 seconds after he has been tagged by another teammate grants attack power by 25 % for 5 seconds

I can already see this promoting dumb behavior and making people get smashed by slave rats while they try to shoot some random tag. I think the game has enough kill-chasing as it is. As for the properties, my stance is largely the same as above.

Necklace:

Barskin - Taking damages reduces the damage you take from subsequent sources by 30% for 2 seconds. This effect can only trigger every 2 seconds

There’s no need to nerf barkskin imo, but you don’t want to add more DR on top of it through other means anyway.

Phoenix - Healing items automatically used upon being downed, can not gain any THP at all

lol

Natural Bond - Passively regenerates 1 health every 5 seconds. Healing from First Aid Kits and Healing Draughts are converted to temporary health

Current implementation, right? Completely useless outside of Deprivation Deeds.

Boon of Shallya - Increases effectiveness of healing on you by 30%

Current implementation? A useless trait imo, unless you are purposely running a thp talent that doesn’t work with your weapon, but why exactly would you do that?

Hand of Shallya - Healing an ally with medical supplies also heals you for 50% of your missing health

Current implementation? Completely useless. Maybe if it got buffed back to the Verm1 value, where it actually counted as applying the medkit to yourself as well. But even then it would only make life harder for new/inexperienced players.

@Adelion

• 1 Dodge counter
• 2 Stamina
• 30 % Block Cost Reduction
  Damage reduction versus Skaven + 20 %
  Damage reduction versus Chaos/Norsca + 15 %
  Damage reduction versus Beastmen + 30 %
  Damage reduction versus AoE + 50 %
  Damage reduction versus Disablers + 30 %

I see what you are doing here. I don’t think the +20% health property needs removing. At the same time, neither does the dodge counter require an increase and the proposed DR is just way too much and turns the real damage dealers of the game into a complete joke.

Charm traits:

@Adelion

Storage - Drinking a potion will store its effect and activates automatically for the next active skill usage

No. Generally you pop a potion because you want it then, not in the next 2 minutes. Or conversely, you don’t want to encourage people to sit on their ult and wait for the perfect moment to pop it for the potion effect.

Proxy - Consuming a potion spreads the effect to the nearest ally

Imo proxy is a meme and should be reverted to the old verm1 effect. Spread the potion to the entire team and have some fun.
​

Decanter - Increases the duration of potion effects by 50%

Concoction - Drinking a potion grants the effect of all other potions. Duration reduced by 50%

Currently the only 2 useful traits, depending on what you are doing.

Dilution - Potion effect will be reduced to 20 %. Duration will increase by 6000 %

Why not over 9000% percent? I don’t see the point though.

Sipping - Each potion can be used twice with half the activation time

Again, pretty useless honestly. I’m going to get a 5 second speed boost now and will save 5 extra seconds for later?

Star of the Sisterhood - Potions are spread across each character with the Star of the Sisterhood trait. (Potion effect reduced by 33 %)

If you want to make an actually cool trait and not a meme, you move it to the necklace and you give it the old Verm1 effect of linking the sisterhood’s health pools together. And then people could actually have some fun and play together in a meaningful way.

@Adelion

• 5 % Attack Speed
• 10 % Damage Cleave
• 10 % Power vs Infantry
• 20 % Power vs Berserker
• 10 % Power vs Armor
• 10 % Power vs Specials
• 20 % Power vs Monster
• 10 % Ammo

As above, I don’t see cleave being a meaningful boost through properties and I don’t think ammo capacity generally needs boosting. Even then, you’re probably better off boosting specific weapons individually rather than allowing for a global boost which could have unforeseen effects.

Trinket:

Explosive Ordinance - Increases explosion radius by 50%

Without disabled FF this is just a teamkiller on cata with frag bombs and imo it has to go.

Shrapnel - Grenades cause hit enemies to take 20% increased damage for 10 seconds​ (Does not stack with itself)

Generally not worth bringing imo unless you’re into very specific high difficulty scenarios like twitch.

Divinve Aim - Bombs do not cause friendly fire

This one is cool, but at least in the given state of the game I still wouldn’t trade Grenadier for it. It’s the only useful trinket trait currently imo. Not because it’s overpowered, but rather due to the other options being very bad/niche.

As for the properties, the discussion is largely the same as before. Most of them are meaningless boosts. And to trade crit chance for them? In TW:WH’s imperial diplomacy voice: Absolutely not!

[Velsix]

@Throne_of_Rats

There’s no need to nerf barkskin imo, but you don’t want to add more DR on top of it through other means anyway.

Nah it really does make careers like WHC capable of taking too much burst damage. It’s almost a qol improvement talent for how well it prevents players from dying to mistakes (like not reading a horde’s density properly, getting surrounded and damage from most specials) and just makes the game a lot easier. Too little though and it’s useless. Could probably just go with 35% and see how that feels. Sounds minor but the last points of health never are.

@Throne_of_Rats

Boon of Shallya - Increases effectiveness of healing on you by 30%

Current implementation? A useless trait imo, unless you are purposely running a thp talent that doesn’t work with your weapon, but why exactly would you do that?

@Throne_of_Rats

Imo proxy is a meme and should be reverted to the old verm1 effect. Spread the potion to the entire team and have some fun.

@Throne_of_Rats

Shrapnel - Grenades cause hit enemies to take 20% increased damage for 10 seconds​ (Does not stack with itself)

Generally not worth bringing imo unless you’re into very specific high difficulty scenarios like twitch.

Where’s Royale with Cheese? Turns out half of his builds have meme traits.

@Throne_of_Rats

Grenadier

Now this trait is a meme. RNG at its finest.

[Adelion]

@Incandescent

I like these, though the latter shouldn’t be available for necklaces

Like it should only be available on melee or it should be available on Charm/Trinket instead of Necklace?

@Incandescent

the rest is all pretty questionable at best.

As said, properties are their to emphasize strengths of weapons. As such it would make sense to include more of the weapon parameters we already have.

@Throne_of_Rats

It wouldn’t really fix anything, as fundamentally more attack speed will always mean a better life in a game like this.

It would have to be tested. But the suggested adjustments should help with people mostly chosing Swfit Slaying. But I don’t want to focus the thread on one trait again -_-

@Throne_of_Rats

Very situational and largely useless in the grand scheme of things. Most enemies are dead anyway long before something like this would be meaningful

Would help with elites, monster, bosses in all situations and horde depending on weapon combinations. It has enough use.

@Throne_of_Rats

Completely useless. Dodge-dancing is a fundamental mechanic even for cumbersome weapons. You’d be nowhere without it and therefore you’d never crank this up to a meaningful value.

It needs a different approach to combat what some people wanted out of traits. If your goal is a permanent buff then yes, you will not be happy with that. But it is more than functional.

@Throne_of_Rats

The last thing this game needs is more DR honestly.

The last thing the game needs is more attack speed and yet we got it. The damage reduction will have its benefits in a coordinated team which is the point of the trait.

@Throne_of_Rats

Maybe the numbers need more tweaking, but I really wouldn’t mind a return of the old melee Scavenger in one form or another

Yea, not sure on the numbers. I accept that I will not get the “muh unlimited ammo” out of the community. But I can try a trade-off where people have to sacrifice melee strength for it. In return the ranged recovery has been slightly reduced.

@Throne_of_Rats

There’s no point and largely no sense in splitting beastmen from chaos. If anything, beastmen are the rawest form of chaos you’re currently getting in this game. Also they’re rare enough at this point that no one would ever run that property. It’s not that it makes a difference even if they are around, since they don’t get meaningful elites or specials. I think the ammo supply is generally fine as it is, cleave is probably useless unless you reach the breakpoint where you cut through an extra target, but not sure how you can do that without a lot of extra perks/talents. Effective range and dodge range are not needed at this point imo. You already get some stupid dodge distances even with cumbersome weapons and not exactly agile careers if you know your footwork well.

Um. those are not melee properties. There is a point in Splitting Norsca from Beastmen (I forgot to remove the Chaos tag). It is to reduce the overbearing of the Chaos property. Right now, it helps in nearly all situations. If it doesnt work against Beastmen anymore it will be slightly less helpful, balancing the properties more. Cleave is something which has to be tested, the numbers currently are just a house number. It should help on weapons which already have strong cleave (emphasizing strenghts). No traits and properties in this game are “needed”. They are there to help people adjusting to their playstyle. Some more dodge on range would be interesting for some people.

@Throne_of_Rats

Also, seriously? No more +5% crit chance, but trading in all that useless stuff? Never.

That is the whole point. As long as increased crit chance as property exists we will never get a balanced system because everyone will just chose the power gamer property. It has to go.

@Throne_of_Rats

Completely useless.

Can be used to have to never reload again your repeater as BH or Huntsman among other things. Also allows a WHC to waste all his Brace of Pistols in one active skill on a monster. Just examples, dont focus on them.

@Throne_of_Rats

Something like the old Verm1 Skirmisher before the buff. Completely useless. Nobody used it until it made the crosshairs remain accurate even while running/jumping.

Unless you use weapons which are not needing pin point accuracy. Then you can get value out of it.

@Throne_of_Rats

A completely useless and unwarranted nerf.

People get a melee recovery method for it. Range alone should not provide a theoretically unlimited way of having ammo. It still is a very strong trait.

@Throne_of_Rats

This is how it works at present, right?

Yes, it is.

@Throne_of_Rats

Same as above but completely useless?

Wasn’t sure on it. I thought some more people use it. But I don’t care, I can kick it out.

@Throne_of_Rats

Completely irrelevant.

It is utility. You don’t need it if you pay attention. But having specials highlighted behind a wall close by would have some use.

@Throne_of_Rats

I can already see this promoting dumb behavior and making people get smashed by slave rats while they try to shoot some random tag.

That is a player problem then. But there is still optimisation potential in that regard. But something which would reward some team play should be incorporated.

@Throne_of_Rats

There’s no need to nerf barkskin imo, but you don’t want to add more DR on top of it through other means anyway.

This compensated by giving the player other choices. The suggested system gives you more room to weaken specific threats the player struggles with. On the other side, the all good in all situation traits and properties are slightly reduced in effectivity. Otherwise you will never reach a balanced state.

@Throne_of_Rats

lol

It is a heavy trade-off. Not sure how it will work balance-wise. It is to strong on lower difficulties while most Cataclysm players would never let go of their THP.

@Throne_of_Rats

Current implementation, right?

Yes.

@Throne_of_Rats

Current implementation? A useless trait imo, unless you are purposely running a thp talent that doesn’t work with your weapon

More THP does never hurt. It is used by several people in the community.

@Throne_of_Rats

Current implementation? Completely useless. Maybe if it got buffed back to the Verm1 value, where it actually counted as applying the medkit to yourself as well.

Just let it in because it doesnt hurt. Wasnt sure on usage rate. But can remove it too. It goes either way.

@Throne_of_Rats

I see what you are doing here. I don’t think the +20% health property needs removing. At the same time, neither does the dodge counter require an increase and the proposed DR is just way too much and turns the real damage dealers of the game into a complete joke.

The health property needs removing. The damage reduction numbers shouldnt be at a point where it would turn anything into a joke. Overall, you have to make a decision which threat you fear the most. It gives you more custimization but no good against everything (which is health needs to go). What are the real damage dealers? Elites? Because specials are not perceived as damage dealers by the forum.

@Throne_of_Rats

No. Generally you pop a potion because you want it then, not in the next 2 minutes. Or conversely, you don’t want to encourage people to sit on their ult and wait for the perfect moment to pop it for the potion effect.

It is utility to maximize potion effect. Random example, it could work on Single Damage active skills when you hear boss music starting. No need to worry about timing again or trying to drink a potion while being surrounded. If you can manage that anyway, it has no use for you. And if people want to sit on their active skill is their decision.

@Throne_of_Rats

Imo proxy is a meme and should be reverted to the old verm1 effect. Spread the potion to the entire team and have some fun.

I randomly get this while playing. So it is used quite a bit.

@Throne_of_Rats

Why not over 9000% percent? I don’t see the point though.

The point is to have a longer lasting but weaker effect. People suggested something like a permanent buff for each potion they drink which is absurd. But this would go in this direction. Having just 5 % more attack and movement speed for 2 minutes instead of 10 seconds of blazing glory.

@Throne_of_Rats

Again, pretty useless honestly. I’m going to get a 5 second speed boost now and will save 5 extra seconds for later?

Or you have a strength potion for your Shadow backstep now and again when it is up again 40 seconds later.

@Throne_of_Rats

If you want to make an actually cool trait and not a meme, you move it to the necklace and you give it the old Verm1 effect of linking the sisterhood’s health pools together. And then people could actually have some fun and play together in a meaningful way.

A shared health pool is the ultimate meme. I loved how half your team went down at the same time because one player somewhere got an overhead by a Stormvermin. Also a nightmare with the different damage reduction values. Shared health will not work. Shared potions will work though, especially the more people use it. You could share one potion with the whole team. Or the Grim-wearer.

@Throne_of_Rats

As above, I don’t see cleave being a meaningful boost through properties and I don’t think ammo capacity generally needs boosting. Even then, you’re probably better off boosting specific weapons individually rather than allowing for a global boost which could have unforeseen effects.

Again, it is to emphasize weapon strengths, especially when stacked. And ammo can have a boost if we get rid of the super-recovery means like Conservative Shooter. Im not sure what unforeseen effects should happen if the current state never lets you run out of ammo.

@Throne_of_Rats

Generally not worth bringing imo unless you’re into very specific high difficulty scenarios like twitch.

Shrapnel is one of the more used traits, especially helfpul if you have much armor to take down in short time.

@Throne_of_Rats

As for the properties, the discussion is largely the same as before. Most of them are meaningless boosts. And to trade crit chance for them?

All properties are meaningless boosts as in they are not needed. And yes, crit chance has to go. Dont you notice this yourself like you would throw everything out of the window just for one property? This simply shows that it is not balanced and to strong. And buffing other properties so they can match crit chance is impossible. Because people take it for the secondary effect mostly.

Either we accept that the current system is the way to go and stop complaining about meaningless traits and properties or we get rid of very few outliers like Crit Chance and Health.

[Incandescent]

@Adelion

Like it should only be available on melee or it should be available on Charm/Trinket instead of Necklace?

only on melee; being able to collect 2 bonus dodges on gear would be pretty wild

[Adelion]

@Incandescent

only on melee; being able to collect 2 bonus dodges on gear would be pretty wild

Well, it would only be two bonus dodges on melee. And you would have to sacrifice other properties. Would you be willing to forfeit more damage or far better defense capabilites just to be able to dodge more. Serious question: Are you regularly running out of dodges?

Actually, I would like to keep the bonus dodge on the Necklace mainly for allowing a ranged playstyle with more mobility (and also for the minigun although I dont use it myself).
What we have to look at is not properties in a vacuum. Sure, things when stacked can give a huge boost. But you have to forfeit another property for it. I’m not sure how many people would actually choose +2 bonus dodges. Stamina for me has always been more preferable.

[Incandescent]

I’d literally run BCR and +1 dodge on everything since melee BPs don’t really matter for the vast majority of weapons and having 3-4 dodges instead of 2-3 is an insane safety net

like I already forfeit damage for BCR and Stamina currently

[Adelion]

Well, different preferences I guess as I hardly have any situation where I think “Damn, if only I had more dodges.” But that is point of the system. Different people have different preferences.

I will take a mental note on that one then.

[Incandescent]

well BCR is by far the most valuable stat among the melee properties so it’s effectively a must have, whilst power vs. is pretty low value especially if you’re separating beastmen and chaos. So then you’re juggling between stam, dodge and perhaps stagger power but only if it’s hitting useful stagger bps.

The Damage cleave one will also only mean anything if it’s hitting a particularly juicy breakpoint but I doubt it will do anything that’d be more valuable than other options

[Throne_of_Rats]

@Velsix

Where’s Royale with Cheese? Turns out half of his builds have meme traits.

I don’t take anyone’s words for gospel. Royale’s builds are a good reference for the tested breakpoints for sure and general optimizations. But I never play proxy or shrapnel outside of coordinated groups. In quickplay people generally fail to make use of the effects or you end up screwing someone over with a surprise potion effect. Or strength FF up someone’s butt.

@Velsix

Now this trait is a meme. RNG at its finest.

Yeah but between killing someone with the increased radius and shrapnel, I’ll take the god-proc.

@Adelion

It is to reduce the overbearing of the Chaos property.

Well, people take Chaos because they don’t know their ranged breakpoints. Usually you need skaven & monster for packmasters and other dangerous specials. Chaos&Infantry or attack speed are the fallback if you can’t get anything else that is useful. Armor and Berserkers are niche choices for specific weapons, like Waystalker longbow breakpoints to bodyshot stormies or staggering plague monks with shields. There’s no point in creating new stuff unless it lets you do something that is meaningful.

@Adelion

That is the whole point. As long as increased crit chance as property exists we will never get a balanced system because everyone will just chose the power gamer property. It has to go.

More like, you need a different game. I think critical hits are quite fundamental to Verm2’s design and it’s just unrealistic and too much of an overhaul at this point to make such a drastic change.

@Adelion

A shared health pool is the ultimate meme. I loved how half your team went down at the same time because one player somewhere got an overhead by a Stormvermin.

Except it doesn’t happen if everyone is running it. A cata overhead on a full sister squad means that everyone eats a legend slave rat poke. People ran it all the time when they did Deathwish back in Verm1. Would be fun and definitely something worth trading Barkskin over if the whole group commits to it.

Going beyond, I pretty much disagree with everything so that’s that.

[Adelion]

@Incandescent

well BCR is by far the most valuable stat among the melee properties so it’s effectively a must have, whilst power vs. is pretty low value especially if you’re separating beastmen and chaos. So then you’re juggling between stam, dodge and perhaps stagger power but only if it’s hitting useful stagger bps.

I understand the helpfulness of BCR, but personally I never needed more than 30 % and I covered this by the Charm(?). So I have the space on the melee weapon. The choice then is then currently for Stamina or maybe Attack Speed. Power vs I’ve been using to improve the stagger values (note that I value stagger against horde as well, not only breakpoints against elites). Which also why I would like to have a pure stagger power property. Personally, I could then forfeit the Power vs traits. But I guess people use them considering how people go ape about Smiter which is basically the same, just some more damage.

@Incandescent

The Damage cleave one will also only mean anything if it’s hitting a particularly juicy breakpoint but I doubt it will do anything that’d be more valuable than other options

Yea, I am a bit lost on that one. I would have it in the game and think it makes sense. But what value would be appropriate is kinda difficult. It shouldnt be to high and not be useful on each weapon. But at least for some of them it should have some use. The main idea for Cleave was that nearly all discussions only center around vertical damage while horizontal damage is mostly ignored (or at least not mentioned much).

[Adelion]

@Throne_of_Rats

More like, you need a different game. I think critical hits are quite fundamental to Verm2’s design and it’s just unrealistic and too much of an overhaul at this point to make such a drastic change.

Just that is not a drastic design change. Critical hits are still in the game and in quite a large number. But they are not suitable as properties. It is insane how much of a positive effect they would have if we remove them from the property pools.

@Throne_of_Rats

There’s no point in creating new stuff unless it lets you do something that is meaningful.

Which it will. Not on all weapons though which has never been the point.

[alsozara]

@Adelion

Yea, I am a bit lost on that one. I would have it in the game and think it makes sense. But what value would be appropriate is kinda difficult. It shouldnt be to high and not be useful on each weapon. But at least for some of them it should have some use. The main idea for Cleave was that nearly all discussions only center around vertical damage while horizontal damage is mostly ignored (or at least not mentioned much).

I was thinking a bit about this one, and I think the problem with a % increase is that the weapons with high enough cleave to hit breakpoints with 20% probably won’t benefit from them much anyway. Meanwhile weapons with low enough cleave that you’d want to spec for cleave most likely won’t hit any breakpoints since their base cleave is so low.

Perhaps a flat cleave increase would actually be a better choice here. How much I have absolutely no idea, but seems to me that would at least give the property a niche on the weapons that would appreciate it. Otherwise I see it only being used in meme builds eg max cleave Merc.

[Adelion]

@alsozara

Perhaps a flat cleave increase would actually be a better choice here. How much I have absolutely no idea, but seems to me that would at least give the property a niche on the weapons that would appreciate it. Otherwise I see it only being used in meme builds eg max cleave Merc.

Yea, on the other hand a flat cleave increase has the problem the other way around. It is useless on high cleave weapons but overbearingly strong on something like an axe. Actually, on melee it would probably be less of a problem. But a flatout increase on range would certainly lead to problems like one crossbow bolt cleaving three Stormvermins. And treating melee and range differently would be confusing at best.

[Velsix]

@Throne_of_Rats

In quickplay

Just because it’s not designed for qp with people that have never played with you before doesn’t make a trait a meme. How are you killing people with bombs? Aim higher.

@Throne_of_Rats

Yeah but between killing someone with the increased radius and shrapnel, I’ll take the god-proc.

Can’t speak for the radius but Shrapnel is just nearly free damage from an unimportant trait slot that stacks with other effects. Pretty easy to do friendly fire with multiple bomb throws anyway.

@Incandescent

well BCR is by far the most valuable stat among the melee properties so it’s effectively a must have,

I almost never use it except on Necklace. Hopefully that has some weight in this discussion. Edit: What am I saying, it’s not relevant at all. Ignore this part.

[Throne_of_Rats]

@alsozara

I was thinking a bit about this one, and I think the problem with a % increase is that the weapons with high enough cleave to hit breakpoints with 20% probably won’t benefit from them much anyway. Meanwhile weapons with low enough cleave that you’d want to spec for cleave most likely won’t hit any breakpoints since their base cleave is so low.

Honestly the only weapon in the entire game that comes to my mind as being in need of extra cleave is dual swords versus chaos hordes, and you’re probably better off just increasing that one’s cleave specifically instead of making a whole system around it. Otherwise it’s a too weird and hard to quantify property, and you can easily go over the top with it or not achieve anything relevant.

@Velsix

Aim higher.

4Head

[alsozara]

@Adelion

Yea, on the other hand a flat cleave increase has the problem the other way around. It is useless on high cleave weapons but overbearingly strong on something like an axe.

It would indeed be useless on high cleave weapons, but how strong it would be on 1h axe and similar weapons would be down to the actual number.

I don’t see that as a problem personally. Not every property realistically can or even should be equally viable for all weapons and builds. Surely the end goal is just that every weapon has a number of impactful options with none being overbearing, and similarly that every property/trait could reasonably see use on at least a few builds.

@Adelion

But a flatout increase on range would certainly lead to problems like one crossbow bolt cleaving three Stormvermins. And treating melee and range differently would be confusing at best.

Yeah that’s a fair point about range. With less ammo sustain I’m not too sure it would be an issue, but could be restricted as a melee weapon property only. Quantity can be balanced accordingly for having no option to further stack it.

[Incandescent]

@Adelion

But I guess people use them considering how people go ape about Smiter which is basically the same, just some more damage.

pretty big difference between a stagger talent that is straight up free damage with zero competitors (aside from assassin) within its tier vs a property roll

Also I wanna point out I find it interesting that for someone adamantly against power creep you’ve got some suggestions here that are well within that realm

[Velsix]

@Throne_of_Rats

4Head

Well, guess I can’t argue with this robust reasoning.