Traits Thread 999,999,999,999,999,999,999

Traits

  1. Melee Weapon Traits
  2. Ranged Weapon Traits
  3. Neck Traits
  4. Charm Traits
  5. Trinket Traits
  6. Suggested changes
  7. Conclusion

Introduction:

These are my opinions and suggestions on the current Traits. My main goal with this thread is to discuss possible changes that would make more than a few Traits appealing, while avoiding breaking the game, or suggesting they restart the entire system from scratch.

I decided to make ‘Thread on Traits number 10,000,000,001’, because I realised how little choice there is which isn’t overshadowed by:

  • Barkskin
  • Conservative Shooter/Thermal Equalizer
  • Swift Slaying

Which I used on 95% of my builds.

The only non-Trait suggestion I want to make, is to give some sort of damage reduction while people are downed on higher difficulties, this is the main reason Barkskin is so necessary on harder difficulties. You just get blown up too quickly without it.

1. Melee Weapon Traits:

Heroic Intervention:
You already know this is rubbish (see 6. Suggested Changes).

Off Balance:
While this is nice on Bosses, it’s only really useful for IB Bardin on Taunts. This Trait just isn’t beneficial enough in the long-term to be worthwhile in my eyes. It’s mainly used on Shield Weapons, where you’ll be spam pushing and slamming anyway. Blocking attacks is usually a last resort.

Another observation in trying to make this Talent useful via playstyle, is that even if you do chase Elites around trying to Block, Bulwark just completely mitigates it’s usefulness, because you could take Opportunist and spam push Elites anyway, and offer more damage spread over many more enemies (because of Stagger bonuses too).

Unsure whether it’s even stackable with other 20% damage increase effects, which would make it even more useless.

Would like to see effect improved or an additional mechanic to make it more useful.

Opportunist:
A great Talent, now even more useful since the Stagger changes. Useful through the entire mission with Shield Weapons. Could be used with others too, but SS exists.

Parry:
As with Off Balance, and WHC’s Talent ‘Riposte’ (Blocking just as an enemy attack is about to hit causes your next melee hit to be a guaranteed critical hit), the timing is way too specific. This Trait can be absolutely life-saving, there’s no arguing with that, but the situations it occurs in are quite rare, and taking offensive Traits/Talents and Block Cost Reduction instead ends up being more beneficial.

Playing this Trait instead of Swift Slaying is the only reason you’ll probably need it to proc.

  • Special exceptions: extremely high density (event/deed/mod runs), or playing with Lag, or playing it with Slayer’s defensive Weapon

Would like to see effect improved or an additional mechanic to make it more useful.

Resourceful Combatant:
This Trait can still be used to lower CDR faster than SS, and it a good pick for faster Weapons, as they’re more likely to get the Crit on each 5 Second interval. If SS did not exist, this would still be a good offensive pick.

Swift Slaying (the elephant in the room)

The problem with Weapons Traits is not that others are too weak, but that Swift Slaying is too strong.
With Attack Speed being such a strong Stat, offering more damage and safety, it makes some Weapons completely reliant on it.

20% Attack Speed is an insane amount of Attack Speed, and shows why some Weapons are weak. It also means Weapons with inherent Crit%, such as SnD or AnF, will almost always have SS up. These are Weapons that are strong enough without 20% AS increase anyway. Though, this also benefits 1H Axes and Elf Greatsword.

Nerfing Swift Slaying, to a lower AS, disproportionately impacts the slower Melee Weapons which already rely heavily on it just to function, and which struggle to get the Critical hit necessary to trigger it in the first place, such as 2H Maces, 2H Swords, 1H Axe, Mining Pick, Greataxe, Glaive, Saltz’ Flail and Halberd. You would have to build too much AS passively to make up for not using SS on these Weapons, and on some Weapons you still do need to build AS heavily.

What can be done about it?

  • Remove completely? Passive Attack Speed increase on all/some Weapons? This gives you the survival of SS while also making slower Weapons a little more viable

  • Nerf it/Change it? Disproportionately effects slower Weapons

  • Remove it and add inherent SS on slower Weapons? 1h and Dual Wield Weapons tend not to need much AS, and SS is overkill (other than 1H Axes and Saltz’ Flail).

  • Change trigger mechanism to benefit slower Weapons?

This decision is a hard one to make, because you’re either going to have to nerf everything across the board, or increase other Traits to somehow be as strong as having 20% Attack Speed.

A more fleshed out explanation of why SS is simultaneously amazing at both offence and defence:

On the aesthetic and ‘feel’ of other Traits vs SS:

Why is Attack Speed especially stronger than other Stats?

As a thought experiment, imagine how many Melee Weapons would be better off with Crit/Crit Power/Power, over AS, and from the bullet points, remove or add which ones are now applicable. Very specific Crit builds are the only ones I see benefiting.

2. Ranged Traits:

I tend to use Conservative Shooter and Thermal Equalizer on most of my Careers on those they benefit respectively, as even on Shotgun CS is more ammo regen than Scrounger.

Some Crit Talents can be useful on Specific Career setups with high Crit%, but other than that ammo is more important.

Ammo regen takes priority over damage on most Careers at high difficulties because of shooting’s utility. I can stop someone being hit in the back, clear enemies from a downed ally, help chip away at Specials, and always have enough ammo to last for the entire map.

Barrage:
A little useful on Hagbane, but Handmaiden is capable of getting enough Power for it not to be necessary, and being able to spam more on WS/Shade/HM is more beneficial.

With Swift Bow, I find Hunter better because you can Crit Armour in the first few Shots, rather than needing 5 shots consecutively for Barrage.

Can’t think of anything else I wouldn’t prefer Ammo/Hunter (because of Crit%) on.

Could some form of ammo sustain save this Talent?

Conservative Shooter:
Use this on pretty much everything now. Guaranteed ammo rewarding good play makes this the best Ranged Trait in the game.

It works with Shotguns better than Crit ammo, but removes the great feel of blasting big enemies in their body for kills. Ammo is a genuine problem with Shotguns right now, and having to lose the fun of them to sustain it kind of sucks.

Heat Sink:
I use this with Pyro on Beam with the 10% Crit chance Talent, Crit on everything, and it’s worth it. Let’s me completely wipe out Hordes. I can’t think of any other Career or Talent build or Weapon build where I would use this though, as other Staffs take up too much Overcharge to sit at high Crit% making use of this Talent.

Hunter:
Ok for Careers with a decent amount of Crit and ammo regen. Possibly useful if you have RV using ammo pickups, if you can be bothered to reroll for this specific situation.

Works well for Pyro especially, because she doesn’t need ammo.

Inspirational Shot:
Circumstances are too specific for this to likely ever be useful. Not worth the ammo or damage loss.

Changing it to body shots could have some potential for Ironbreaker’s Drake Guns and Unchained.

Resourceful Sharpshooter:
Can still be kind of worthwhile on certain builds, but Ranged Weapons tend to have Crit% vs ammo usage problem on Careers without lots of Crit passives.

Scrounger:
Headshot ammo tends to be better, but this still works ok on guaranteed Crit Careers, such as Huntsman.

The ammo it can give back can be quite bad on Careers without another source of ammo sustained though. Someone will hopefully have that info in the comments.

Thermal Equalizer:
I use this on most of my Careers with Overcharge, because it’s safer to use. Going out of ammo on Careers which use it = death, so it’s not worth the risk.

My suggestion would be to get rid of it and make it passive across all Careers, so people can take more interesting builds.

3. Neck Traits:

The main two Neck Traits we use are Barkskin and Boon of Shallya, because they offer more long-term passive defence than any of ther others, some of which require actually using a heal to benefit from.

Barkskin:
As a Cata player, this is the Trait I take on 99% of my Careers with small exceptions for specific builds like Zealot and RV. This is sadly very boring, but necessary.

Getting bursted down or stunlocked to death is the main way you die on higher difficulties, be it by Disablers or getting stuck in a group of Elites/Boss.

Getting knocked down without Barkskin on higher difficulties leads to you getting deleted if you have no damage reduction. A passive damage reduction while being knocked down on higher difficulties would open up the other Traits a little more.

In my eyes, the way it works benefits already tanky Careers way more than it does on Careers with low DMGR anyway, because you have to get hit once for it to Proc. Merc Kruber with his Ultimate can trade with Minotaurs with this Trait.

Boon of Shallya:
Another ok pick if used with Weapons which don’t generate much THP, or on Careers which already have lots of Damage Reduction. More of an active survival Trait. However, being bursted down is still a big risk.

Hand of Shallya:
A little too RNG to be worthwhile. To benefit from it, you must be low health and also have access to Bandages. Outside of those circumstances you have no passive benefits at all.

Relies on teammates actively knowing you have it and not picking up Bandages before you, as they’re untradeable.

Healer’s Touch:
Again, a little too RNG, very fun with RV though. Offers no passive survival outside of using Heals.

Natural Bond:
Sorry, but Hand of Shallya just outdoes this Trait way too heavily for it to be worth it, because of on-demand THP. Even on Ranged Careers, it’s better. The changes to THP totaled this Trait, even though I didn’t see it as a good enough option anyway.

My suggestion would be to make a change to the way it works with THP, as degeneration is way too fast for the actual healing to catch up. Maybe ‘being 100% THP increases the rate of Regen by x per second’.

4.Charm Traits:

They all have their place with Proxy being one of the better ones and Concoction only suiting very specific builds. Would like to see some more interesting Traits come out. There’s no much more to say about them than that.

5. Trinket Traits:

High Ordinance really good for RV, but Shrap/Chance not to use are better for others. Not much more to say than that. Would be nice if we got some more interesting Traits.

6. Suggested Changes:

Weapons:
It would be nice see some more variation and some Traits which have effects we haven’t seen. Bleed/Burning on attack or damage vs Bleed/Burning on attacks. They should be made interesting and strong, so that if you do make any changes to SS, there‘s something more intriguing to replace it.

Heroic intervention:

Your Pushes generate 4 THP, split between you and your nearest allies. You can only receive 2 THP max from this Effect.

+Saving from Disables THP Bonus

Only one party member may have this Trait at a time.

Neck Traits:

Ranger’s Glory:
Your ranged damage deals x% less damage to all allies, and your Temporary Health does not decay/ decays more slowly.

This Trait could help Ranged Careers with low THP generation, such as Huntsman, BH and some BW Weapons, while also making Pyro’s other last line Talents more appealing. It also adds some utility to builds with heavy FF, such as Bolt Staff/BH.

Endure The Pain:
Damage to True HP is reduced by x% and damage to THP is reduced by x%.

Or alternatively, the first hit you take after not taking damage for x seconds is reduced by x, damage reduced if doubled if it damages your True HP (this stops Zealot from becoming more OP).

Charms:

Hip Flask:

Can no longer drink Potions, but gain a small defensive bonus from holding them

  • 5-10% Movement Speed (Speed)
  • x% Stagger Power (STR)
  • Ultimate use grants Temp HP (Conc)

Another suggestion I was going to get into, but won’t, was Character specific Traits, which would suit the Weapons each Character has and the way they use them, rather than being a blanket across all Weapons. I feel like this would be a good way to offer more options for different playstyles.

Conclusion:

Lets hope Stats and Traits are something they’re looking into, so we can have so more build variation other than Swift Slaying on everything.

How do you think the situation with Swift Slaying should be fixed to add more build variation?

  • it should be noted that during the thread it was suggested by a few people that making SS an inherent mechanic of Weapons, where the Weapon speed decides on how much AS you get from it. This choice is not included on the poll
  • it was also suggested that if this change were to occur, you could change the trigger mechanism from a Crit, to benefit the slower Weapons
  • Lower the Attack Speed
  • Change the trigger mechanism
  • Remove it completely (add more Traits)
  • Get other Traits to somehow match 20% AS
  • Buff Slower Weapon AS, so they don’t rely on it
  • Other (comment below)

0 voters

Any suggestions that are made which won’t completely break balance or force another build meta will be added under this. Please be specific in your reasoning:

This could quite easily be a good way of giving Saltz a frontline Weapon, rather than just a Trait, but it’s a fun idea for a Trait too. Would probably get scaled out on Cata and only effect Skaven though.

I kind of see what you’re going for here, but something like: ‘you no longer generate THP, but gain 50% of the THP generated by nearby allies’, may be a bit more simple.

This is one I considered suggesting too. Both this and Twisted Karma seem to be very good for ranged Careers which don’t generate much THP, a problem I tried to solve with my suggestion of Rangers Glory. I’ll add both of these to highlight that Ranged THP is a little awkward right now.

Yes. The extra action/aiming involved could actually be the downside to the fact that you can buff everyone. Nice little blue, yellow and purple explosions would be cool visually too.

These should have been RV Talents instead of THP :’).

Adding this, but they should just add a mechanic similar to mines regardless of Trait imo.

9 Likes

Great post, well made.
Do wanna say before i get into it. Traits having specific uses is fine for me, like crit refund on pyro, traits shouldn’t necesarilly have a use on most ranged weapons to be good traits.

The problem with melee traits is swift slaying as you said and i think it should be swift slaying that gets changed, something on how it triggers because slow 2h weapons should still get it, or remove it entirly and add something 2h related. Lots of melee traits are still usefull and good but ss is sometimes just better. Do agree on heroic intervention being bad, it also triggers inconsitently.

I agree with inspirational shot. All other ranged traits i find very good on how they are right now, not really any change needed for me.

Neck traits: like you said barkskin and boon are best, natural bond i’ll give a pass as it can be usefull on ranged only careers, it’s a very ‘nooby’ talent. The issue with the other ones is just that it’s situational or rng, i’d rather see a cooldown timer or a limited amount of uses but idk how that would play out balance wise, prob be too strong .

Charms: all good ones, except home Brewer as it’s rng and i’d rather get something more consistent, doesn’t mean i want 100% chance to dupe pots. It’s a good trait for the lucky ones.

Trinket: ordinance good, shrapnel is alright. Grenadier again rng but very fun if you get it 4 times in a row.

I think more traits should be added to neck/charm and trinket, especially bombs lack alot. I like your heroic intervention suggestion, but wouldnt it be must pick on shields? And not really a fan of the ‘only one active a
Per party’ as it’s gonna be hard to check in qp.

Rangers glory seems good with slow decay on temp, but it would depend on the balance and if it decays more slowly with ranged out only it would be fine i feel.

Not a fan of endure the pain tbh, but i like the concept of more specific traits and less ‘overal universal good traits’.

Hip flask is just a permanent weaker potion which would be strong. Would make decanter and home brewer absolutly never used, other ones are debatable.

Traits could be specific to weapons, like 1h 2h and shields a bit like you have ranged traits for overheat weapons only, but there would need to be alot more traits for each to make it a choice. I wouldnt go character specific personally.

2 Likes

Since you are nice enough to take the flak for daring to talk about nerfing Swift Slaying I will comment on this (I skipped over the rest for now, but will read in more detail tomorrow and get back on that). Also, upfront I will say that I do not agree that there is even a single weapon in the game which needs Swift Slaying to work. Not having Swift Slaying at all can be compensated by positioning and teamplay. So completely removing the trait is not a problem. But it is not the goal of the thread.

As you have stated correctly Swift Slaying gives just to much benefits. It works in an offense way by having higher attack speed (more dps especially problematic since the trait works best on high crit careers doubling the dps effect) and more hits also means faster recharge of active skills. On defense it gives enemies less time to attack you and you potentially generate more THP due to more hits (if you run THP on cleave for example). Worst of it, you have a nearly unlimited uptime of Swift Slaying without much issues just by adapting gear. There has been a rather comical thread on Steam bringing other traits “on par” with Swift Slaying which was pure power creep. The current form of Swift Slaying for the sake of the game can absolutely not stay in the game. It has to be changed.

There are several potential tone downs for this from very minor to still fricking strong but finally in line (the following list is mostly an or-function):

  • As long as Swift Slaying is active the player will not recharge its active skill bar, neither by hitting stuff, nor by getting hit, not by passing time, not even by concentration potion: This would add a minor inconvenience to the Swift Slaying trait but the effect is rather small
  • While Swift Slaying is active you deal reduced damage with your melee weapons by 15 %: This would keep the defense properties of Swift Slaying active but you would have to pay a price for it
  • While Swift Slaying is active your received damage is increased by 20 %: This would keep its offense properties but you have to pay more attention not getting hit. Since Swift Slaying works so well for defense I don’t think most people would notice this

All those are potential solutions to make it a bit less feasible but still being the strongest trait on melee weapons. However, as stated before the real problem is the permanent uptime of the trait. To solve this you could make it so that:

  • Swift Slaying can not be activated as long as Swift Slaying is active: This would only result in a few seconds downtime. Surely not much of an impact
  • Swift Slaying has a limited activation of once per minute (for example) similar to other traits: It would be still be helpful and strong but it would not be up the whole time. I consider this solution viable and feasible.

However, for the uptime there is a potentially better solution. Main problem of Swift Slaying is the activation condition of critical hits because it can be influenced to easily and is heavily career dependent (although you can get 10 % easily + weapon internal crits on ANY career). Generally, there are three different activation themes:

  • Weapon dependent: Works always the same on each career with the weapon (Opportunist would be an example)
  • Condition dependent: A certain task has to be done for it to trigger (Conservative Shooter is an example)
  • Career/Stat dependent: The trait will proc by chance for repetitive tasks and is dependent from an influenceable stat (Scrunger would be an example)

The game has shown over and over again (Wigglemancer, Ressourceful traits) that traits which rely on crit chance are broken and needed to be adjusted. For strange reason this has not happened yet with Swift Slaying. In my opinion the crit chance based trait trigger should be completely removed from the game because it is a balancing nightmare. As such I heavily suggest to:

  • Change Swift Slaying to a weapon dependent trait. The trigger condition will be changed from Crits to a hit based chance trigger similar to the healing traits in Vermintide 1. For example every hit with the dagger has a 5 % chance to trigger Swift Slaying. This is faaar easier to balance and will avoid the constant uptime. It also solves the problem of fast weapons, slow weapons. Faster weapons like Axe and Falchion could have a trigger chance of 5 % or lower. Two hand hammers or war-pick could have a chance of about 15 % (or lower). It also solves the problem that on some careers you have high-crit melee nukes with constant Swift Slaying up. It also eases properties a bit since you are not “forced” to pick crit chance other than doing more damage which is already good enough. This solution is by far the best. Although some of the above mentioned suggestions still could be applied.

Side note: I actually like to use Opportunits, obviously on my Shield Dwarf and Shieldmaiden but also on my flails (for Zealot, a career i will hopefully never use again, and Unchained) although Im not even sure it brings much :stuck_out_tongue:

2 Likes

I’m not actually convinced anything needs to be done about Swift Slaying itself. The argument could be made that SS is the default melee trait more so due to a lack of alternatives than being too powerful.

Swift Slaying’s biggest benefits are:

  • High value. 4 properties worth of stats is quite large,
  • Universal stat. Works on every weapon, in bloody near every situation. All you need is some crit from your gear or career and off you go.

It’s a very good generalist solution. It’s great on slower weapons because it shores up a major weakness, but it’s still good on fast weapons because “more attacks” just tends to not be a bad thing.

If we had more similarly powerful traits to pick from, it seems to me that players would have more freedom to drift away from the generalist option that is Swift Slaying in favor of more specific bonuses. We’ve already kinda seen this with shield weapons, where Opportunist is also a worthwhile option that many players use.

Though if something truly must change on Swift Slaying, I’d prefer to see it be split into two variants based on individual weapon. We know that Fatshark can arbitrarily preclude specific traits from certain weapons due to how the ammo vs heat traits on the ranged weapons work. Simply give slow weapons and fast weapons different versions of Swift Slaying that give differing amounts of attack speed.

As for all the other traits… Meh. I don’t know how much conversation can be had about them. Most are ether obviously good, obviously rubbish or kinda boringly, generically useful.

5 Likes

My opinion:

  • Good traits (no changes needed):

    • Swift Slaying: it’s good, for a deeper speech read below;
    • Conservative Shooter: the most consistent way to regen ammo (if you play well);
    • Thermal Equalizer: pretty safe and simple: you can fire more;
    • Barkskin: a good damage reduction with a trade off that doesn’t make it mandatory;
    • Boon of Shallya: good for squishy careers (those careers that can’t absorb a second hit even with Barskin) and good if you exchange too hits during hordes (since normally, in this case, you take one hit at time, so you don’t active Barkskin);
    • Proxy: great help to the entire team;
    • Shrapnel: your best tool for bosses and patrols (those situations that can mean a lost);
  • Average traits (decent but too situational and/or with a too small niche… they could receive a small tweak but they aren’t the priority):

    • Barrage: can be useful with certain weapons, like Swift Bow, Flamethrower and Hagbane…
    • Scrounger: can be useful with… Huntsman and Bounty Hunter? A too small niche;
    • Hunter: like above, but the niche is even smaller;
    • Heat Sink: useful only with a specific Pyro build?!
    • Concotion: useful only with few, specific, cases;
    • Decanter: like above;
    • Parry: like above;
    • Opportunist: good but only with Shields (to make it better with every weapon,Opportunist could improve push in every moment, not only when an enemy is attacking);
  • Bad traits + my suggestions to buff them:

    • Resourceful Combatant: a weaker Swift Slaying. It’s triggered like SS but it doesn’t add attack speed and it helps less the cooldown reduction:
      • Suggestion: every attack reduces the cooldown (I mean, this already happens… the trait should buff this mechanics);
    • Heroic Intervention: simply too bad;
      • Suggestion: when another player is downed, that player gains a great damage reduction for some seconds;
    • Off Balance: totally overshadowed by other choices;
      • Suggestion: every enemy staggered by your push take more damage;
    • Inspirational Shot: like above;
      • Suggestion: ranged headshots give 2 tHP;
    • Resourceful Shooter: like above;
      • Suggestion: like Resourceful Combatant;
    • Natural Bond: like above;
      • Suggestion: healing items give green HP… but their effect is reduced by x%;
    • Hand of Shallya: like above;
      • Suggestion: using an healing item gives x% green HP to allies (10%?);
    • Explosive Ordinance: like above;
      • Suggestion: increases both radius and damage;
    • Home Brewer + Grenadier: they are an apart speech (see below)
  • Swift Slaying:

  • Home Brewer + Grenadier: they are useless with every career… apart RV, who has the 10% bonus as passive. The problem is that if RV uses these traits, he loses Shrapnel and Proxy… wich give a GREAT support to the team… wich is RV’s sole.
    So I think these talents must be reworked together RV (wich needs a buff).
3 Likes

I’m stealing this because I forgot to flesh out my argument on why SS has such good offensive and defensive benefits. Thank you. :joy:

I had to spend a while deleting a load of text from the post, because apparently copy-pasta from the V2 Wiki works onto MS Word, but just ends up adding a ridiculous amount of characters to this forum.

@souI23 and @anon75893681

Yeah, some Traits are highly specific as to which Career they’re even useful on. RV has a lot of meme build potential, and the chance not to use potions can be used to great effect on him.

Ordinance/Home Brewer/Heal dupe

1 Like

Anyway sorry if I quoted myself, but I forgot one important point.

This thread is nice: with some tweaks traits can really give new life to certain careers and can greatly increase the variety… but, obvly IMHO, Swift Slaying should be the last thing to rework.
I mean, it should be reworked not only when the other traits has been fixed (to see if SS is still the most used)… but when entire game’s balance is in a better status.

Currently chancing SS means change the entire gameplay and make the entire game harder (and, for many players, more boring too… since how slow certain weapons are)… it’s a dangerous step. Since I find the actual balance pretty… precarious, the best option is proceed little step by step. We must start from “safe” changes that are positive for sure (for example Resourceful Combatant, wich hasn’t none space)

Apart this speech, I think that SS doesn’t need a nerf… just a rework

The main problem, about SS, are many 2H weapons… these weapons are too much dependent to SS (without SS they are very painful, almost not usable)… and they can trigger it difficultly**.

A possible solution could be to give, to SS, a less attack speed (+15%?) but make the bonus flat (always active, not dependent by crit)… but this would destroy the delicate balance between attack speed and crit% property.
Currently, crits, are mainly used to trigger SS… there are certain weapons that benefit better from crit% property to active SS as fast as possible… and other weapons that instead need a base attack speed to perform.
Make SS a flat bonus would greatly penalized crit% property.

Another solution could be buff 2H weapons’ attack speed.

As said, it’s a very complicated and dangerous speech.

1 Like

To be honest i disagree on your statement that the issue with melee traits being that swift slaying is just too strong relative to the rest, instead i honestly just think the others are plain bad.

  • Heroic intervention? 15 temp health for a save? Awful.
  • Off balance? Sure it´s great on ironbreaker when he taunts, but that´s rather specific and it just does not work particularly well at all otherwise aside from bosses as you wrote.

A talent that works for so little out of a total run might as well not be there at all more often than not, and even if it saves 1 or 2 outa 20 runs it´s still pretty much nothing in my eyes.

  • Oppertunist? I tried it in the WOM beta and back then it did nothing as far as i could tell, i could not stagger more stormvermin or monks(or even interrupt either of those during bigger animations ) or chaos warriors than without it and hordes…not a problem in the first place really.

I was and remain very unimpressed by it.

  • Parry? I honestly really quite like the concept of this but i think a pretty large issue is that many if not most weapons can’t actually use this well at all ontop of it being too dang risky to use…thus making it bad.
  • Resourceful combatant? Admittedly this one is actually alright or even good.

And for the elephant, swift slaying.

  • Swift slaying…20% does indeed sound powerful and it´s been proven to be impactful but on the other hand, would a noticeable less powerful bonus actually be good to use at all?

Is it overpowered? Is it necessary? Does it just happen to hit a really sweet spot? I honestly do not know what to make off it myself but i do know that i really think pretty much all the other melee traits are dang useless.

Well that and to be honest i just really like the ATS bonus, i honestly cant use some weapons without it.

What traits would you propose so that swift slaying isn’t always the obvious choice? How would you make those bad traits choosable?

A fair question, i guess i can cook up an idea or two for each.


Nr 1.

Heroic intervention is a trait that encourages teamplay and assisting eachother but fails to really provide substantial help or reward for doing it in it´s current form, a shame really as teamplay is precious.

I would suggest replacing it with something that works well as long as you fight next to your teammates. Maybe something like a minor damage reduction for them while you get a boost of some kind in return.

Or perhaps something a trait that gives you an a teammate a buff when you both attack the same target for a certain time(makes it work vs bosses) or kill a special/elite together or a certain number of smaller enemies close to eachother.

Morale boost from seeing the eachother do well .D

Nr 2.

Off balance meanwhile lies in a similar vein to parry as in helping you counterattack after defending but given that the only weapon that really wants to block attacks is the shield which focuses much more on crowd control rather than outright damage it comes out as odd.

So i´d take those two traits, fuse&change and buff em because it just aint rewarding enough for how risky it is otherwise.

So i would want to make it so that you get a damage buff for blocking(even if a bit less than 20%) and a perfectly timed block not only costs no stamina but also makes your next push really powerful, a combo deal, i think this would make it a excellent choice for anyone running a more frontline focused build while rewarding skilled use.


Nr 3.
Opportunist…This damn thing needs to be good enough to interrupt stuff like a monk attack chain or a elite heavy attack to ever be of any use or perhaps debuff the opponents somehow.

Like if i smack a monk in the head with a shield in the middle of an attack he should at least have the decency to flinch or something instead of acting like i hit him with a sheet of paper and just carry on with his business.

Alternatively gimme a buff for smacking an opponent who is in the middle of an attack even if it does not stop them.

Well overall i cant say i am sure that my suggestions are the best there are but i am certainly convinced that the above traits in their current iterations are bad though.

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I agree that those Traits need a buff, but as I explained in the original post, 20% Attack Speed is just too difficult to compete with. If it was 10% we probably wouldn’t be having this discussion, but it would still need to be locked in on many of the slower Weapons.

The max AS you can get from gearing is 10%, and then whatever you can reach with Talents, and with AS being such a versatile stat (damage, THP generation, safety because of AS), it just outshines the purely defensive Traits too heavily.

Even the changes you’ve suggested won’t match that.

I would even prefer to see Swift Slaying become a general game mechanic rather than try to balance around it, because it’s so strong. It would definitely open the door to more utility-focused Traits.

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Thank you, i know it’s not easy to find new ideas but your suggestions would still make swift slaying the overall good choice and ur suggestions would be a stronger version of the ones we already have. To match ss you would need a way to activate similar to crits, no cooldown on activation time, increase attack/defense/temp hp etc hard to make a trait like that, that isn’t too strong so thats why i was asking.

Tweaking swift slaying would be the easier choice, would be easier to introduce new traits aswell, unless you go shield specific or weapon specific traits which are better then ss.

I am not sure 20% attackspeed is that unbeatable, one of the virtues with the suggestions i made is that i did not specify numbers at all : P

Especially given that while it is indeed very powerful it is also on the other hand a trait that is essentially necessary to make some weapons actually work well at all…but for the weapons that do not actually need it there is room to discuss.

Or actually it´s pretty clear why almost all of those also use swift slaying, it´s because resourceful combatant is too niche and relies on rapid crits to be useful so overall the only real useful option is swift slaying and nothing else for them.

Even if they struggle to use it due to low base crit chance and attackspeed.

But as for the idea to make it a general game mechanic, my fear with this is the fact that it would powercreep the crap out of many weapons and make it hard to add interesting and fun new traits without smashing the balance scales entirely.

Indeed swift slaying would still overall be good, but i think or hope that my suggested changes would make for some actual competition or even better options for specific builds.

I do not think it´s bad that swift slaying is strong, rather i think it´s a pretty good thing because it feels pretty great to use, but what is bad is that the other traits are not only weak but also lack any real attraction to make them satisfying to use.

Thus ideas for stuff like a empowered bash on a good block or bonuses for grouping up and standing together as they hopefully would accomplish just that ^

Imagine getting a perfect block on a chaos warrior while using say a shield then slamming him with it to knock him over…it would be glorious! :star_struck:

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I don’t understand? Opportunist is like mandatory for shields since it gives them huge stagger increases to everything. With Opportunist you can push-stagger every single elite in the game except berserkers (and with a little extra power you can actually do it) no matter what attack they’re trying to do. The only thing you can’t stagger are Chaos Warrior overheads. The effect Opportunist has on shields is massive, since without it you cannot reliably push stagger enemies and you’re far more likely to take overhead swings if you’re not wary of it.

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Swift Slaying is not a problem in any way. Everything else is just utter crap. SS is the ONLY trait that increases DPS. Give viable options and you will see diversity. It won’t happen, but it’s what needs to happen to get that outcome.

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Inherent Swift Slaying is an interesting idea, but it would also be massive power creep too. Even if none of the other traits get changed. I worry that fear of worsening the power creep would make Fatshark refrain from producing more melee traits. Having fewer meaningful choices in build design is one of the last thing this game needs.

There’s a problem with nerfing Swift Slaying before producing new traits though. Swift Slaying has been an institution for well over a year and half at this point. Nerfing it will massively affect how the game feels to play for many players. And the last time Fatshark did that with 2.0 they tanked the player base so hard that it completely wiped out the huge bump they got from all the WOM hype.

From a player happiness perspective, it’s a lot safer to introduce new, similarly powerful traits first, then nerf SS later if it still needs to be monkeyed with.

Opportunist actually does allow shields to stagger chaos berserkers out of the vast majority of their attacks (the only exception is the leaping attack). It’s monks that specifically require extra effort due to their stagger resistance being higher than chaos berserkers for no discernible reason.

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I did write that i only tried it out in the WOM beta and things have changed .p

But as for staggering monks and berserkers doing a combo, can it really with just a little extra power? As in using the hero power bonus talent instead of bonus damage on staggered targets?

In that case it still aint good, because that bonus damage is too dang priceless.

Really? I use shield on handmaiden and i find myself easily being able to stunlock groups of stormvermin without it although admittedly overheads do not always cancel once they get started unlike other attacks.

Not much of a problem though as pushing alone does not break your guard, but if talking maulers and chaos warriors…maulers are usually easily staggered anyway but is there actually any real effect on chaos warriors?

Power on charms, weapons and talents like Staggering Force also help stagger. As someone mentioned, chaos savages are staggerable for the most part even without any other power increases, but monks need a bit more effort (and savages too for all of their attacks).

I’m not too familiar with spear&shield, but yes, without Opportunist you can’t reliably 100% crowd control enemies, and that to me seems a lot better for shield weapons than an attack speed boost.

It’s a problem if you also want to do damage, prevent enemies from pushing and moving through, or prevent them from killing your teammates. If you use something like axe&shield without Opportunist and you’re doing the push-bash combo, then you might just take an overhead to the face. With enough power increases (like Staggering Force) then you can push stagger every single enemy in the game except for chaos warriors and specifically only their overhead swings.

Opportunist is mandatory (well, just more meta/more effective I suppose) because it means you can completely reliably frontline without worrying about taking damage. Without Opportunist, you won’t be nearly as effective as holding off a stormvermin patrol, or a massive Cataclysm horde, while fight Opportunist you know you’re going to be safe assuming you don’t somehow miss your bashes. You can’t reliably push stagger maulers or stormvermin otherwise.

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Of course you can “beat it”. But bringing other traits to Swift Slaying level is absurd power creep level. There will never be a chance for trait rework if we don’t get rid of the overpowered nature of Swift Slaying. Swift Slaying is not merely okay, it is far to strong.
And “well” is kinda debatable. There is not a single weapon in the game which needs Swift Slaying. Every weapon can be used without it. You just need to adjust proper positioning and rhythm. But using it makes the game far easier which is why it is so popular. Swift Slaying is a problem. The lengths at which people are defending it showcases the depth of it.

Also debatable. It was less the changes to combat but more the hundreds bugs which overshadowed any meaningful chances. After the bugs got taken care of, more and more people saw the improvement of the combat. Also even if WoM would have been received better the player levels would have sunken as well. They just dropped to pre-WoM level to the second-all time low of 1.6 (which was pure crap gameplay-wise). After bugs got taken care of player numbers stabilized and increase due to the improvements.

While I agree on the argument I will say that this can never and should never be an argument for buffing or nerfing something. Players have shown repeatedly that they have no idea and no care about gameplay balance.

Swift Slaying as trait can stay but it is insane that people are defending a 100 % uptime. Change the trigger mechanism to a chance per hit. Set it low to 2-5 % for fast weapons, set it higher to 7-12 % for slow weapons so that the uptime ends somewhere between 25 - 50 % and it may be better balanced.

Then take a good look at the remaining traits again. But before Swift Slaying is adjusted and changes to traits will be wasted.

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