Traits
- Melee Weapon Traits
- Ranged Weapon Traits
- Neck Traits
- Charm Traits
- Trinket Traits
- Suggested changes
- Conclusion
Introduction:
These are my opinions and suggestions on the current Traits. My main goal with this thread is to discuss possible changes that would make more than a few Traits appealing, while avoiding breaking the game, or suggesting they restart the entire system from scratch.
I decided to make ‘Thread on Traits number 10,000,000,001’, because I realised how little choice there is which isn’t overshadowed by:
- Barkskin
- Conservative Shooter/Thermal Equalizer
- Swift Slaying
Which I used on 95% of my builds.
The only non-Trait suggestion I want to make, is to give some sort of damage reduction while people are downed on higher difficulties, this is the main reason Barkskin is so necessary on harder difficulties. You just get blown up too quickly without it.
1. Melee Weapon Traits:
Heroic Intervention:
You already know this is rubbish (see 6. Suggested Changes).
Off Balance:
While this is nice on Bosses, it’s only really useful for IB Bardin on Taunts. This Trait just isn’t beneficial enough in the long-term to be worthwhile in my eyes. It’s mainly used on Shield Weapons, where you’ll be spam pushing and slamming anyway. Blocking attacks is usually a last resort.
Another observation in trying to make this Talent useful via playstyle, is that even if you do chase Elites around trying to Block, Bulwark just completely mitigates it’s usefulness, because you could take Opportunist and spam push Elites anyway, and offer more damage spread over many more enemies (because of Stagger bonuses too).
Unsure whether it’s even stackable with other 20% damage increase effects, which would make it even more useless.
Would like to see effect improved or an additional mechanic to make it more useful.
Opportunist:
A great Talent, now even more useful since the Stagger changes. Useful through the entire mission with Shield Weapons. Could be used with others too, but SS exists.
Parry:
As with Off Balance, and WHC’s Talent ‘Riposte’ (Blocking just as an enemy attack is about to hit causes your next melee hit to be a guaranteed critical hit), the timing is way too specific. This Trait can be absolutely life-saving, there’s no arguing with that, but the situations it occurs in are quite rare, and taking offensive Traits/Talents and Block Cost Reduction instead ends up being more beneficial.
Playing this Trait instead of Swift Slaying is the only reason you’ll probably need it to proc.
- Special exceptions: extremely high density (event/deed/mod runs), or playing with Lag, or playing it with Slayer’s defensive Weapon
Would like to see effect improved or an additional mechanic to make it more useful.
Resourceful Combatant:
This Trait can still be used to lower CDR faster than SS, and it a good pick for faster Weapons, as they’re more likely to get the Crit on each 5 Second interval. If SS did not exist, this would still be a good offensive pick.
Swift Slaying (the elephant in the room)
The problem with Weapons Traits is not that others are too weak, but that Swift Slaying is too strong.
With Attack Speed being such a strong Stat, offering more damage and safety, it makes some Weapons completely reliant on it.
20% Attack Speed is an insane amount of Attack Speed, and shows why some Weapons are weak. It also means Weapons with inherent Crit%, such as SnD or AnF, will almost always have SS up. These are Weapons that are strong enough without 20% AS increase anyway. Though, this also benefits 1H Axes and Elf Greatsword.
Nerfing Swift Slaying, to a lower AS, disproportionately impacts the slower Melee Weapons which already rely heavily on it just to function, and which struggle to get the Critical hit necessary to trigger it in the first place, such as 2H Maces, 2H Swords, 1H Axe, Mining Pick, Greataxe, Glaive, Saltz’ Flail and Halberd. You would have to build too much AS passively to make up for not using SS on these Weapons, and on some Weapons you still do need to build AS heavily.
What can be done about it?
-
Remove completely? Passive Attack Speed increase on all/some Weapons? This gives you the survival of SS while also making slower Weapons a little more viable
-
Nerf it/Change it? Disproportionately effects slower Weapons
-
Remove it and add inherent SS on slower Weapons? 1h and Dual Wield Weapons tend not to need much AS, and SS is overkill (other than 1H Axes and Saltz’ Flail).
-
Change trigger mechanism to benefit slower Weapons?
This decision is a hard one to make, because you’re either going to have to nerf everything across the board, or increase other Traits to somehow be as strong as having 20% Attack Speed.
A more fleshed out explanation of why SS is simultaneously amazing at both offence and defence:
On the aesthetic and ‘feel’ of other Traits vs SS:
Why is Attack Speed especially stronger than other Stats?
As a thought experiment, imagine how many Melee Weapons would be better off with Crit/Crit Power/Power, over AS, and from the bullet points, remove or add which ones are now applicable. Very specific Crit builds are the only ones I see benefiting.
2. Ranged Traits:
I tend to use Conservative Shooter and Thermal Equalizer on most of my Careers on those they benefit respectively, as even on Shotgun CS is more ammo regen than Scrounger.
Some Crit Talents can be useful on Specific Career setups with high Crit%, but other than that ammo is more important.
Ammo regen takes priority over damage on most Careers at high difficulties because of shooting’s utility. I can stop someone being hit in the back, clear enemies from a downed ally, help chip away at Specials, and always have enough ammo to last for the entire map.
Barrage:
A little useful on Hagbane, but Handmaiden is capable of getting enough Power for it not to be necessary, and being able to spam more on WS/Shade/HM is more beneficial.
With Swift Bow, I find Hunter better because you can Crit Armour in the first few Shots, rather than needing 5 shots consecutively for Barrage.
Can’t think of anything else I wouldn’t prefer Ammo/Hunter (because of Crit%) on.
Could some form of ammo sustain save this Talent?
Conservative Shooter:
Use this on pretty much everything now. Guaranteed ammo rewarding good play makes this the best Ranged Trait in the game.
It works with Shotguns better than Crit ammo, but removes the great feel of blasting big enemies in their body for kills. Ammo is a genuine problem with Shotguns right now, and having to lose the fun of them to sustain it kind of sucks.
Heat Sink:
I use this with Pyro on Beam with the 10% Crit chance Talent, Crit on everything, and it’s worth it. Let’s me completely wipe out Hordes. I can’t think of any other Career or Talent build or Weapon build where I would use this though, as other Staffs take up too much Overcharge to sit at high Crit% making use of this Talent.
Hunter:
Ok for Careers with a decent amount of Crit and ammo regen. Possibly useful if you have RV using ammo pickups, if you can be bothered to reroll for this specific situation.
Works well for Pyro especially, because she doesn’t need ammo.
Inspirational Shot:
Circumstances are too specific for this to likely ever be useful. Not worth the ammo or damage loss.
Changing it to body shots could have some potential for Ironbreaker’s Drake Guns and Unchained.
Resourceful Sharpshooter:
Can still be kind of worthwhile on certain builds, but Ranged Weapons tend to have Crit% vs ammo usage problem on Careers without lots of Crit passives.
Scrounger:
Headshot ammo tends to be better, but this still works ok on guaranteed Crit Careers, such as Huntsman.
The ammo it can give back can be quite bad on Careers without another source of ammo sustained though. Someone will hopefully have that info in the comments.
Thermal Equalizer:
I use this on most of my Careers with Overcharge, because it’s safer to use. Going out of ammo on Careers which use it = death, so it’s not worth the risk.
My suggestion would be to get rid of it and make it passive across all Careers, so people can take more interesting builds.
3. Neck Traits:
The main two Neck Traits we use are Barkskin and Boon of Shallya, because they offer more long-term passive defence than any of ther others, some of which require actually using a heal to benefit from.
Barkskin:
As a Cata player, this is the Trait I take on 99% of my Careers with small exceptions for specific builds like Zealot and RV. This is sadly very boring, but necessary.
Getting bursted down or stunlocked to death is the main way you die on higher difficulties, be it by Disablers or getting stuck in a group of Elites/Boss.
Getting knocked down without Barkskin on higher difficulties leads to you getting deleted if you have no damage reduction. A passive damage reduction while being knocked down on higher difficulties would open up the other Traits a little more.
In my eyes, the way it works benefits already tanky Careers way more than it does on Careers with low DMGR anyway, because you have to get hit once for it to Proc. Merc Kruber with his Ultimate can trade with Minotaurs with this Trait.
Boon of Shallya:
Another ok pick if used with Weapons which don’t generate much THP, or on Careers which already have lots of Damage Reduction. More of an active survival Trait. However, being bursted down is still a big risk.
Hand of Shallya:
A little too RNG to be worthwhile. To benefit from it, you must be low health and also have access to Bandages. Outside of those circumstances you have no passive benefits at all.
Relies on teammates actively knowing you have it and not picking up Bandages before you, as they’re untradeable.
Healer’s Touch:
Again, a little too RNG, very fun with RV though. Offers no passive survival outside of using Heals.
Natural Bond:
Sorry, but Hand of Shallya just outdoes this Trait way too heavily for it to be worth it, because of on-demand THP. Even on Ranged Careers, it’s better. The changes to THP totaled this Trait, even though I didn’t see it as a good enough option anyway.
My suggestion would be to make a change to the way it works with THP, as degeneration is way too fast for the actual healing to catch up. Maybe ‘being 100% THP increases the rate of Regen by x per second’.
4.Charm Traits:
They all have their place with Proxy being one of the better ones and Concoction only suiting very specific builds. Would like to see some more interesting Traits come out. There’s no much more to say about them than that.
5. Trinket Traits:
High Ordinance really good for RV, but Shrap/Chance not to use are better for others. Not much more to say than that. Would be nice if we got some more interesting Traits.
6. Suggested Changes:
Weapons:
It would be nice see some more variation and some Traits which have effects we haven’t seen. Bleed/Burning on attack or damage vs Bleed/Burning on attacks. They should be made interesting and strong, so that if you do make any changes to SS, there‘s something more intriguing to replace it.
Heroic intervention:
Your Pushes generate 4 THP, split between you and your nearest allies. You can only receive 2 THP max from this Effect.
+Saving from Disables THP Bonus
Only one party member may have this Trait at a time.
Neck Traits:
Ranger’s Glory:
Your ranged damage deals x% less damage to all allies, and your Temporary Health does not decay/ decays more slowly.
This Trait could help Ranged Careers with low THP generation, such as Huntsman, BH and some BW Weapons, while also making Pyro’s other last line Talents more appealing. It also adds some utility to builds with heavy FF, such as Bolt Staff/BH.
Endure The Pain:
Damage to True HP is reduced by x% and damage to THP is reduced by x%.
Or alternatively, the first hit you take after not taking damage for x seconds is reduced by x, damage reduced if doubled if it damages your True HP (this stops Zealot from becoming more OP).
Charms:
Hip Flask:
Can no longer drink Potions, but gain a small defensive bonus from holding them
- 5-10% Movement Speed (Speed)
- x% Stagger Power (STR)
- Ultimate use grants Temp HP (Conc)
Another suggestion I was going to get into, but won’t, was Character specific Traits, which would suit the Weapons each Character has and the way they use them, rather than being a blanket across all Weapons. I feel like this would be a good way to offer more options for different playstyles.
Conclusion:
Lets hope Stats and Traits are something they’re looking into, so we can have so more build variation other than Swift Slaying on everything.
How do you think the situation with Swift Slaying should be fixed to add more build variation?
- it should be noted that during the thread it was suggested by a few people that making SS an inherent mechanic of Weapons, where the Weapon speed decides on how much AS you get from it. This choice is not included on the poll
- it was also suggested that if this change were to occur, you could change the trigger mechanism from a Crit, to benefit the slower Weapons
- Lower the Attack Speed
- Change the trigger mechanism
- Remove it completely (add more Traits)
- Get other Traits to somehow match 20% AS
- Buff Slower Weapon AS, so they don’t rely on it
- Other (comment below)
Any suggestions that are made which won’t completely break balance or force another build meta will be added under this. Please be specific in your reasoning:
This could quite easily be a good way of giving Saltz a frontline Weapon, rather than just a Trait, but it’s a fun idea for a Trait too. Would probably get scaled out on Cata and only effect Skaven though.
I kind of see what you’re going for here, but something like: ‘you no longer generate THP, but gain 50% of the THP generated by nearby allies’, may be a bit more simple.
This is one I considered suggesting too. Both this and Twisted Karma seem to be very good for ranged Careers which don’t generate much THP, a problem I tried to solve with my suggestion of Rangers Glory. I’ll add both of these to highlight that Ranged THP is a little awkward right now.
Yes. The extra action/aiming involved could actually be the downside to the fact that you can buff everyone. Nice little blue, yellow and purple explosions would be cool visually too.
These should have been RV Talents instead of THP :').
Adding this, but they should just add a mechanic similar to mines regardless of Trait imo.
