To FS: Why do you have to push Ogryn Sluggishness too much?

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
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I understand that you want to design a character to be strong and heavy but slow. But jeez you don’t have to make all the animations so sluggish. This is the only class I haven’t reached 30 for this reason. I decided to give it a try again yesterday and now I’m at 27.

Note:

  • I may have fewer hours in Ogryn compared to other classes but my mech (V2 & DT) isn’t average.
  • So, after a few games, I felt confident enough to start running this class in damnation (at lvl 20 iirc).
  • The images below are from last night illustrating my results as a person who just started playing Ogryn. The weps I used were only around 200-250 modifiers.
  • With that said, I speak from a standpoint of carrying potential. For example, you are the last person left and you have to res all teammates that spawn quite far away.
  • I understand that I have to experience more of the class.

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Let’s get into it.

  • The first point is about equipping animation. Ripper guns, for example, when you aim the gun (right click) there is an animation of holding the gun with two hands. There are some other guns like this too. For me, it is slow and annoying. I usually switch guns the very last second before the threat can get me, but for Ogryn I have to plus 1.5 to 2 seconds. And that can be life and death trying to kill disablers.

  • Jumping through obstacles (boxes, handrails, etc): This one is super annoying. With other classes, they will climb over it easily, but with Ogryn you either jump over it or stay there. Sometimes I can jump past the same handrails but sometimes I can’t. I stayed there trying to experience with it for about 10 seconds it still didn’t work even though I did it before.

  • Krourk Mk 4 heavy attack animation: A lot of times I utilize sprint + heavy attack to get to my target faster. There is no problem with Krourk4’s first heavy attack animation but for the second heavy attack, it will cancel out unless you fully charge it and let it release itself. That’s so stupid.

  • Bull Rush: This one is super annoying. When you press “F”, you should be able to activate it no matter what (unless you are disabled). However, some staggers prevent it from activating. Even worse, I have moments when I hit it and get stopped right the way and my ult went into cooldown.

  • Char size: If you don’t position yourself in a wide enough area, it is more difficult to dodge disablers. Not to mention you can barely hide from gunners behind a bunker. Sometimes I still get hit. But that’s not the worst part. It is when you block all the view from your teammate who try to shoot elites (ragers etc). Imagine there is a tight space and a vet trying to shoot down a group of ragers, the Ogryn walks in. It’s so fking annoying because a lot of guns won’t shoot through teammates. Basically the Ogryn just protect the enemies at that point.

The worst part is that, you are trying to make up for it by giving the class more HP and some stupid defensive skills (“Implacable” for example). You can only have so much HP, but what makes a player accomplish higher lvl of play is learn how to not getting hit while putting out good damage. So, lower the HP and give the class some fluidity please.

  • Sluggish aspect of the design: I hate it. You even created a skill that utilizes “Fully Charge.” You didn’t even make it “up to 40% depending on the charge time.” It’s either you fully charge it or you don’t get the bonus at all.
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    Only people who don’t know how to play would fully charge a weapon. If you have enough time to fully charge an attack without being hit, you don’t need any skills to begin with.
    And thank you for “Implacable” -15% damage while charging an attack.
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    I’ll take 8.5 damage instead of 10 and let all countless adds hit me during the charge. Is that the idea?

This is my impression so far. Since I’m still new to the class, I’m sorry if I made any mistakes in my comments.

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Bad idea, don’t. Also not unique to ogryn, since bolters and helbore lasguns have the same thing. Ogryn just has more of those weapons.

Hehe club go BIG bonk

Then position yourself in a wide enough area. Good news, little friend. Ogryn wide enough to be the area!

Agreed on the mantling issue though, it’s too inconsistent to be funny.

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Hi there, thank you for the comment. But I’m not here to argue, I don’t know why you would say something like “bad idea, don’t.” and “then position yourself in a wide enough area.” I’m talking about the sluggishness of the class and other related topics. If you want to lecture, I’m more than happy to take you on a few runs.

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I do agree that there are multiple ways that the Ogryn feels slow. I’d love to have some of the animations get a faster speed and that some of the more focused on heavy attack talents, as you’ve pointed out, should be dependant on the charge time and not be full effect or nothing at all, such as the Crunch! talent.

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You can always charge weapons during dodge or before engaging the enemy. Crunch is exactly for fighting big enemies that are also slow so you have time to do it. All Ogryn weapons hit hard so making them faster would be very OP. Making Ogryn more fluid would break immersion, and would look silly. Equipping ranged weapons is mostly for balancing reasons (not just Ogryn weapons), most Ogryn weapons have high DPS and slow reload, it also feats big and slow archetype that Ogryn is. Being higher and wider than other classes has the disadvantage of blocking shots and the view of teammates (and enemies). Being tall gives you better vision to see threats. Playing as Ogryn, always remember that you probably see more than other people and mark enemies that you need to eliminate.

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Giving Crunch! a scaling damage output dependant on the charge time would make it not be all or nothing, so you have the choice of ending the animation early for less of a damage bonus or still, as you’ve said, gain the whole benefit while fighting big and slow enemies.

I’d prefer that they would remove some of the time on heavy attacks that is required to take it too “full” charge only.

Even if I have a heavy2 attack charged when I slide and try to enage a group of enemies, from time to time it changes that attack into a heavy1, or strikedown attack, if said weapon have that as the first heavy attack.

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Hi, I appreciate your comment. I understand the point about being immersive with this type of char design. The reasons above explain why I don’t like this aspect. I’m not saying making him more fluid without reducing something else. I do not agree with having a bigger/taller char giving you more view to detect threats. It is more of a problem than an advantage, if any at all.

The slow move speed and extra damage for slow attack (charge attack) are fine. But they emphasize it too much. As I mentioned above, I don’t like the idea that only Fully Charge gets the benefit from Crunch, it should be based on charge time. I don’t even mind if the guns shoot slow, as long as I can equip it quickly to fire the first shot because the initial suppress/stagger means a lot.

Not only that, when you are helping a downed friend, your char is just too tall that you can’t even see the progress bar unless you aim your cursor way down to the floor. Then again, you can’t even see your surroundings if you do so. It’s just so many aspects of this design that are very annoying. A lot of people compare Ogryn to Bardin, but in my opinion it is the worse version of him. A walking fridge that blocks teammates’ views/shots.

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Undoubtedly the Ogryn now, as it was in p(atch)12 to be fair, is a monster of melee.

But I personally don’t feel a lot of the talents designed for the Ogryn actually overlap well with how I feel ‘forced’ to play it. There’s a reason why the butcher III is a favourite; before and now. Its speed. Sure damage and self-healing too. But predominantly speed.

As before, and now, so many of the tree skills are geared to heavy attacks. But the speed of these and proportional damage, combined with how open they leave you … well, for me, they’re not worth it. Better to quick kill things with a light attack than try and swing for the fences.

It’s true that possibly I’m just out of touch with Ogryn p13. I just don’t get why an Ogryn, which is a muscle monster, takes soooooooo … ooooooooo … oooo long to prep a heavy swing. Change that, even if there’s a damage adjuster, and maybe I’d get it more easily?

(Ogryn lvl 105)

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Yes, that is very true. I rather have less damage but improve fluidity. I’m not here to experience being a giant to the highest degree in a highest difficulty where I have to eliminate my mistakes as much as possible.

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Crunch is 40% more damage and impact, it is a huge bonus that also has a big downside. If it was scaling then that would be too strong so it would need rebalance and no skill involved in using it. At this point it makes it boring 10% more heavy damage that there is already in the skill tree.

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I agree that 10% heavy atk dmg is already there so it doesn’t make much sense to have another. Even though I don’t mind the idea of changing it to scale on charge time, but a total rework would work too. The only time I feel rewarded for using Crunch is when I 1v1 with an enemy and that enemy must have slower attacks. And how many times does it happen in Damn/Auric? Almost doesn’t exist. No, I won’t trade with them even though I get 15% dmg reduction from “Implacable.” I can push or punch a rager to make him lose balance for a short time and use a quick heavy attack (not fully charge) to finish him.

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That is how line of sight works, there is advantage and it is no denying it. The question is if the downsides are worth it. There are also ways to diminish them like using weapons that can ignore Ogryn mass or proper positioning.

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You read my mind, pal. You sure you are not a Psyker?

But, really, all we need is big tank, yes? Why can’t we have tanks?

In all seriousness, to OP: your post is interesting, I agree with you but I also don’t know that it needs fixing.

So whenever I try something other than a Cleaver 3 I immediately hate it. I am trying to get into using the shovel, because, attack speed aside, it’s a good weapon, but I am not a huge fan of light>heavy combos, mostly because in times of panic, I wind up picking the wrong light and the wrong heavy. But the damage and CC potential (with the upper cut) are rather good.

I prefer weapons where the situation is what makes me choose if I want to heavy or not (so one of my favourite combos is Cleaver 3 and Grenadier Gauntlet, and the Grenadier Gauntlet is there for heavy melee and ranged).

But, I also don’t feel the Ogryn should feel like a zealot, and like someone else says the fact that he acts his size is one of the reasons I play it, but also one of the reasons I sometimes hate it in specific situations where being slow has caused me some issue.

Oh yes, getting in the way of people for me is the biggest problem. My friends will tell you I am very aware of my positioning, but feeling like I constantly have to make sure I position myself in a way that doesn’t interfere with my team mates gets annoying. I don’t know what the solution to that is, other than turning off friendly fire/collision for Ogryn, but I think that might take it too far.

There are weapons that don’t need preparation and the Ripper, for example, only needs preparation if you brace it. Most of the time you’ll find you’ll left click it instead, especially if you pull it out at the last second.

I would say that, regardless of your nice results in Damnation at around 20, you might just need to get used to the class needing some preparation depending on loadout. Or it might just not be the class for you.

And yes, I skip Crunch. It needs a rework.

2 Likes
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It is good for you if you feel like you can benefit from it. I don’t feel that having a slightly higher viewpoint when I play other classes is ever an issue for me, nor do I find myself saying, ‘Man, I wish this character were as tall as an Ogryn so I could see more.’ That being said, the downsides are not worth it to me.

To your point about using weapons that can ignore Ogryn mass, why do we have to be forced to use different weapons just because we have an Ogryn in the team? And about proper positioning, it is true in some cases. For example, in the open. However, you can’t reposition yourself to get a better view when the enemies are behind the door and the Ogryn is there to block it. The worst case is when a vet activates Volley Fire to quickly take down a group of ragers + shotgunners, and bam! an Ogryn steps in to block the door.

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Hi, thank you for your comment. Yes sir. I agree that I need more time to experience the class. This is just my impression so far. I also agree that Ogryn shouldn’t feel like Zealot. I don’t mind slow attacks or movement but I really want them to fix the initial animation so we can let out the first shot/attack faster. Yes, I almost always use light attack on the Ripper gun. The points above are about how they exaggerate the sluggish design to make people feel the character. I think they stay too true to that idea.

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Playing as an Ogryn you have to consider that you are a big wall of flesh but there are some simple rules that can help others.

  • don’t block the dors
  • try to walk in straight lines
  • don’t stay too close to teammates (+50% coherency is useful)
  • attack enemies from sides
  • shoot enemies from back of your group
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Gotcha. I guess we are on a similar page. :slight_smile:

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That’s a great point. As a matter of fact, I have a friend who I play with sometimes over the weekend and he only plays Ogryn. He knows about blocking view and knows how to avoid it because we discussed it before. However, it’s not always the case with random people. In fact, 90% of my play time is pug.

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If I understand you correct, you’ve pointed out that this is a talent to be used when you have time to fully charge it for a good amount of damage and impact, so that whatever you are fighting will most likely not be able to fight back. Instead of giving it a scaling value so that you can decide for youself when to use it?

While it does give a good bonus, how many times during a mission will you actually have a use for it? Or are you just using fully charged heavy attacks no matter what you are up against?

I’d love to see that Crunch! be reworked into faster swing speed on heavy attacks and reduced charge time to gain fully charged attacks. This will open up for a more fluid gameplay that uses heavy attacks while making sure that I does not become baseline for gunluggers or for those Ogryns who likes to use cleavers.

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Well the sluggishness has been dropped significantly since launch and I think they’ve found a good balance of him feeling powerful and good to play. Minus a couple moves (the L1s on the first 2 bully clubs are obnoxiously delayed like you noted). The bracing on the Rippergun sounds like a complaint but its actually a pointless thing to use in game anyway unless you like struggle to aim or something. Hip works better on all 3. Fat Shark should probably find a reason for us to do that before we worry about how long it takes on top of switching, but for just swapping and firing its Ogg’s fastest weapon. And with how its basically a boltgun minus AP damage (until can opener and dominate enter the chat anyway) the fact that it draws so fast for its power is clearly out of scope with their design for the game, considering similar weapons take an eternity to pull out as a counter to their room clearing nuke damage.

And yeah those talents are bad, but ogg’s tree is pretty inflexible. Box of hurt was forgotten about, should probably also have 4 of those if they are going to be vet grenades minus bleed (the thing that makes vet grenades do damage). Crunch should definitely do +power, share Thrust’s mechanics and have infinite cleave on full charge. Implacable needs to go, like all of crusher/mauler overheads and toughness breaks will stagger an ogryn charging a heavy, and if you try to tank those melee elites you will die incredibly fast in game. But what there really needs to be is a balance of power. Soften Them Up has as much value for light attacks as it does ranged, but its only on the gunlugger or middle route unless you run the butt box. There’s like nothing for light attacks anywhere else. Heavy attack nodes are mostly just boring power splashes here and there, culminating with a node that has an annoying activation requirement making it slowly rev up to max power and then clean up the end stragglers of a fight with some buffs. Lucky bullet is completely awful and worthless.

There’s almost as much work to do here as veteran’s, but ogryn is just so powerful it doesn’t really feel that bad that his tree is also profoundly 1 build oriented near the bottom (damage reduction keystone crushes the rest atm).

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