There is no point to Natural Bond

[alsozara]

@1184

There’s not a single scenario in which Natural Bond would shine, not a single niche it can take.

I think vent mitigation on a VERY ranged focused backline pyro is a sensible use case, especially with the crit chance when over 80% HP talent. If you are spamming staff 90% of the map I can see getting the most value out of Nat bond.

I think it’s ok to acknowledge one valid use case and still think the trait overall needs a boost. At very least removing the effect on healing items would be welcome. Being the only trait with a downside feels unreasonable when it’s already struggling for relevancy.

[1184]

@BtheLee

I mean you are wrong objectively and you’re being refuted right now haha.

You say that and yet somehow there’s not a single counterargument, especially from you.
That’s because my arguments are facts.

@BtheLee

You’ve gone and read the descriptions of the traits and drawn a conclusion, the wrong one mind you.

You’re wrong. I’ve played with NB before.

@BtheLee

I haven’t seen you say what difficulty you prefer so i’m just basing this off what i play mainly (which is normally cata and sometimes legend when times are slow)

I play on Legend and Cata, but that is completely irrelevant because Natural Bond should be good on any difficulty, just like every other necklace.

@BtheLee

in cata, playing waywatcher or huntsman, you get hit once (and proc barkskin) even if you get hit again within the window you’re most likely going to go down just due to the fact that a slaverat can deal 2/3rd of your hp with a single attack if you’re not careful.

Very untrue. Assuming you have the 20% extra HP from necklace (and you should), the first hit knocks you from 120 down to 70 HP. If you have Barkskin then in the next 2 seconds you can take TWO more hits and still be alive, at 10 HP. If you had NB in that scenario you’d be dead.

@BtheLee

There’s much more room to use NB on those types of classes (ranged heavy dps classes) and on classes that get bonuses to dodging/blocking like WHC and shade. I’ve walked out of cata games with less than like 300 damage, prolly from chip, aoe, and ff but that’s over the course of a whole game. Hardly enough to use a consumable and it usually saves the consumables for my teammates who usually will need it more than me. It also makes you the healbot of the group since you can make great effectiveness of the bandages healing 2 wounds and still being able to top yourself off.

In that scenario you’re better off geting HT so you can be even more helpful to the team.

@BtheLee

Tl;DR, you’ve gone a read the descriptions and drawn conclusions from the traits without actually taking into the full picture of WHY these traits are so well used by the community

No, I’ve actually played with NB for a while on lower difficulties when I was a beginner and liked it. Then I learned Boon of Shallya works with THP and I learned how important THP is in V2. Since then I’ve used every necklace trait except for Hand of Shallya. I also tried NB recently (on many characters, but mostly ranged ones) and found it very lacking, thus I made this suggestion.

[brosgw]

@1184

If you get hit very rarely, you do not benefit much from NB. You’re better off with HT.

How is this true? If I get hit, once every 3-5 minutes… And I have a low health pool and play with mostly range… It makes more sense to use natural bond vs more temp health Regen and damage reduction on iterative hits.

I don’t feel I am detrimental to the team. I carry the tome, everyone else has healing, I don’t go down at all, and I do damage. Where’s the harm?

[1184]

@Frostysir

Reading your post i am strongly suspecting two possibilities, one, you do not play cata much at all. Otherwise you´d know that a squishy cant survive even a second if getting pinned by a special infront of …well practically any enemies really. Or two, you are disregarding my premise of “ranged specialist” while arguing as if you are not.

I play exclusively on Legend and Cata. Barkskin makes a difference and actually saves butts. Boon of Shallya lets you bounce back to full HP significantly faster. Both of them keep you from getting wounded - and having a wound is when you want to use healing items on cata.

@Frostysir

In addition, you also do not play ranged careers much or you do not play them well, since your entire playstyle is “rush into melee to generate THP”. If you played mainly ranged you´d greatly cherish the ability to keep health up without compromising on ranged uptime or wasting healing nonstop.

I play a lot of RV and OE, both of which can easily build THP.
I also play every elf class (and use ranged weapons whenever possible) except for handmaiden - SoTT gets loads of THP from teammates, Shade can quickly build THP on elites, Waystalker actually can struggle with THP, but she has innate regeneration which can be buffed with talents and also benefits from Boon of Shallya which also happens to boost the THP generation and healing item efficiency. Nonetheless I often find myself taking Barkskin on the poor little brittle elves, at least on cata.

@Frostysir

If you played cata at all you´d know that there is no squishy that survives “a lot of damage at once”, one big elite hit or more than 2 non-slaverat chaff hits and you are done.

With Barkskin even the most squishy class (100 base HP + 20 from necklace) can surive 3 hits AT ONCE from a clanrat on Cata. As for elites - if you’re squishy then you probably have a way of dealing with elites or are ranged and shouldn’t face elites directly anyway.

@Frostysir

No it does not take “a couple of attacks” on WS or pyro, it needs about 10 hits which might only take a few seconds…if fighting a big group in melee. But now you are doing the zealot-style rush on a ranged career with all the downsides but none of the perks. Or you are playing another melee-oriented career for which my original statement does not apply.

WS already has built-in regeneration which can benefit from Boon of Shallya either way. But even if natbond was a good choice on WS… That’s literally a single class it would be good on. Out of 12.
As for Pyro - I don’t really play a lot of Sienna, but I’ve seen a lot of people just farting up THP from ult (lvl 30 talent) and ending up more tanky than Unchained. And I assume Boon of Shallya works with that talent.
Also I’ve seen people build THP reliably as Huntsman with tuskgor swipe on cata.

@Frostysir

IF you were playing a ranged specialist you´d have no issue with walking behind your team and shooting for two minutes? Like you are actually intended to?
…

And this just goes on and on with all your statements, nothing makes sense for cata, except in the context of a melee career but that´d just be twisting the premise since i specified ranged.

Because eventually you’ll get hit and will have to wait another few minutes to have your HP regenerated. OR you could do what other people do and take Barkskin or Boon of Shallya and patch up your HP with THP. Which is what everyone does. Because they don’t take natbond. Because it’s useless.

[Frostysir]

@1184

I play exclusively on Legend and Cata. Barkskin makes a difference and actually saves butts. Boon of Shallya lets you bounce back to full HP significantly faster. Both of them keep you from getting wounded - and having a wound is when you want to use healing items on cata.

On Legend sure barkskin works, Cata? Cata has between 20% to 50% more damage depending on which attacks we discuss. Which added with the “damage for lower aggro” multiplier is what makes random backstabs so painful.

Barkskin does not give you enough of a reduction to survive taking more than 2 hits from elites. If you got 4 Chaos warriors or just maulers spamming Charge attacks on you then any single hit would do 90-100 damage. Followed by 50-60 on the next. Toast.

A few specials also deal 100% more damage per hit. Stormers and assassins included.

But yes it does help if you are trading hits with chaff,just like boon, but that is less a need and more a skill issue unless dedicated melee. Or if you get caught&saved in 2-3 seconds or so.

@1184

Boon of Shallya lets you bounce back to full HP significantly faster.

Only if you are running melee nonstop and need/want that THP, if you do not, bond will have a better output since 20 every two minutes or whatnot is still better than 0. Much better.

Again, if i wanted to spamrush melee, i would play Zealot.

@1184

I play a lot of RV and OE, both of which can easily build THP.

…And they both have talent options for damage reduction, OE even has more base health, both of which are synergy points for Barkskin.

@1184

SoTT gets loads of THP from teammates

Provided that said teammates are generating excess, not something you should ever take for granted in PUBS. Big mistake.

@1184

Nonetheless I often find myself taking Barkskin on the poor little brittle elves, at least on cata.

When talking Waystalker, this tells me you are either trading hits with chaff, getting hit by firerats, gunners or even lone assassins/leeches or a mix of them. None of which is good. As for the rest, yes i mean, they are melee so they want more durability. Boon would be better though given lack of innate resistance.

@1184

With Barkskin even the most squishy class (100 base HP + 20 from necklace) can surive 3 hits AT ONCE from a clanrat on Cata. As for elites - if you’re squishy then you probably have a way of dealing with elites or are ranged and shouldn’t face elites directly anyway.

I did specify, not the slaverats? Clanrats are about the same. Gets more interesting if looking at beastmen gors with 30 base damage if many and up to 60+ per hit if few. Get special pinned infront of 3 gors and you are gona drop as WS no matter what. And fully die in the next couple seconds.

@1184

WS already has built-in regeneration which can benefit from Boon of Shallya either way. But even if natbond was a good choice on WS… That’s literally a single class it would be good on. Out of 12.
Also I’ve seen people build THP reliably as Huntsman with tuskgor swipe on cata.

Because again, melee Careers inherently want more THP generation to offset the burden of going into melee vs specials and hyperdensity, no way around it. They will inevitably face occasions where they risk taking significant damage and thus, where boon shines a lot, especially given the virtue of already spending most of their time in melee range and generating THP to start with. Barkskin works for those that do not need boon at all. And then there´s only a six ranged careers being WS, huntsman, RV, OE, bounty and pyro. Bounty kinda needs boon since his inherent THP generation is awful. The others can use bond just fine if they want to but WS and pyro got advantages that make it easier, better.

@1184

I don’t really play a lot of Sienna, but I’ve seen a lot of people just farting up THP from ult (lvl 30 talent) and ending up more tanky than Unchained. And I assume Boon of Shallya works with that talent.

and ending up more tanky than Unchained

Please do not confidently argue when you have no idea what you are on about, or do not mix in chaos wastes/conc pot into a comparison of default capabilities. For reference, Unchained has 50 more base health and half the damage she takes instead goes to the heat-bar. And she can vent the bar by using her ability. And she has talents that either give her either even more damage reduction or the ability to vent more by just blocking. ’

And talents for reducing enemy damage output by 30% or greatly reducing ability cooldown if she starts to self-explode. Which can help abort it for extra safety.

@1184

Because eventually you’ll get hit and will have to wait another few minutes to have your HP regenerated. OR you could do what other people do and take Barkskin or Boon of Shallya and patch up your HP with THP. Which is what everyone does. Because they don’t take natbond. Because it’s useless.

Yes i will get hit again, eventually, like 3-4 minutes later, and then i´ll keep walking happily and shooting enemies from a distance like i have been wanting to all along with nearly no loss health compared to the start. Instead of being forced to play a Zealot rush melee style on a ranged career like a rabid bull. A significant comfort that saves greatly on healing that my teammates will likely end up needing more.-

That was the whole idea to start with.

[Flawless]

@brosgw

Nah. Over a course of game I can heal lots with nature’s bond. Had moments (rare) where I would go to 20 or 30 and with nothing but nature’s bond go back to 180. All my bots have it too.

Nature’s bond is a drug. It’s too good. Especially if resources are scarce and especially if you’re carrying 3 tomes.

Use natural bond.
Look at the recording of a mission (or try to keep track during the mission).
Every second that you have any temp hp at all: natural bonds value = 0.

Also consider that if you ever have to heal yourself, you only get thp (which automatically makes the health regen of natural bond useless).

When i did this test, i gained about 20-30 hp (actual hp gained, not thp converted to ghp) from natural bond across the entire mission (may ofc vary depending on map and team comp).
That is absolutely worthless.
Same thing when i watched the video of a youtuber who used it. Guy almost always had at least some thp.

You get 20-30 extra thp from boon within a single horde.
You save 20-30 hp with barkskin within single occasion of taking 2 hits in a row.
Friendly fire also triggers barkskin (unless that got changed), so if you have a hagbane user on your team (which deals friendly fire amounts that you instantly restore with thp), you often have barksin active for the “first strike” of enemies as well.

[Frostysir]

@Flawless

you often have barksin active for the “first strike” of enemies as well.

Barkskin if i am not mistaken, works on the same principles as hunter, meaning it determines the source/target of the damage. So if the elf hits you barkskin will activate but it should not help you with anything except more damage from the Elf.

“edit”

I was mistaken, still i do not think Barkskin is good on careers without inherent tankiness in some form or another.

@Flawless

Every second that you have any temp hp at all: natural bonds value = 0.

I am almost 100% certain that this is not how it works, though i heard that if you cap out on THP it can disable the bond? But if you mostly go around shooting that´s never a real problem. Its about 20 health every two minutes which is absolutely not bad for doing what you like.

Edit,

bond works even if maxed out though it overwrites THP rather than filling out.

[Riku]

@1184

But on higher difficulties there’s really no difference between THP and GHP

aren’t you admitting here that on lower diffculties there would be a scenario in wich natbond is taking over as there are less enemies to keep up your temphp

[Flawless]

@Frostysir

Barkskin if i am not mistaken, works on the same principles as hunter, meaning it determines the source/target of the damage. So if the elf hits you barkskin will activate but it should not help you with anything except more damage from the Elf.

I have not tested this in a few months, but hunter grants you separate buffs for each target type that you trigger it on.
Barkskin never did this, and it does not state anywhere that barkskin would work this way.
I assume it still works the same way as it did when i tested it, which was universal dmg reduction while it is active.

@Frostysir

I am almost 100% certain that this is not how it works

Natural bond does not produce additional hp as long as you have any temp hp (unless it got changed).
If you have thp and gain 1hp from NB, you do not just gain 1 green hp.
You gain 1 ghp at the cost of 1 thp.
So as long as you have any thp at all, NB (just like the other passive healing things) simply slowly converts thp to ghp and you gain nothing,

That said, even IF natural bond was potentially useful, barkskin and boon have other benefits.

Barkskin has the potential to keep you from getting downed.
Boon allows you to take more overall damage because you gain more thp. This enables you to purposely take more hits and get your ult to recharge faster (since lost hp converts to ult cooldown).
Being able to ult more, results in being more useful for the whole team.

[Flawless]

@Riku

aren’t you admitting here that on lower diffculties there would be a scenario in wich natbond is taking over as there are less enemies to keep up your temphp

Kinda yes.
But at the same time, if you ever get so low that you would want to heal yourself, you get filled with thp (since NB makes self applied heal items only grant thp).
And in the scenario that you actually have issues keeping up your thp, that thp from the heal item will run out, too (and make NB worthless again, for the entire duration of this happening).
So in that case, NB will be bad again.

[Frostysir]

@Flawless

I have not tested this in a few months, but hunter grants you separate buffs for each target type that you trigger it on.
Barkskin never did this, and it does not state anywhere that barkskin would work this way.
I assume it still works the same way as it did when i tested it, which was universal dmg reduction while it is active.

Huh, upon double checking it appears i was wrong indeed, my bad.

@Flawless

Natural bond does not produce additional hp as long as you have any temp hp (unless it got changed).

----- I meean, even if it does overwrite THP its still not bad, still means you got more health that wont be gone 'cause you started to use a bow for a minute or two. Big advantage for ranged specialists trailing behind melee ones. At least the ones who already have enough THP generation.

@Flawless

Barkskin has the potential to keep you from getting downed.

It does have benefits for melee, particularly those that already have some form of damage reduction and expect to deal with repeat chip damage. The benefits are nearly nonexistent for a squishier career with lower health that finds themselves in a similar seat though since they’ll still lack the foundation to endure.

@Flawless

Boon allows you to take more overall damage because you gain more thp. This enables you to purposely take more hits and get your ult to recharge faster (since lost hp converts to ult cooldown).
Being able to ult more, results in being more useful for the whole team.

This is more or less a melee exclusive strategy, for ranged careers its a last resort with a serious drawback that leaves you needing to heal or playing like a melee but without the benefits of talents and passives for it in order to maintain THP.

[Flawless]

@Frostysir

ranged specialists trailing behind melee ones.
[…]
This is more or less a melee exclusive strategy, for ranged careers its a last resort with a serious drawback that leaves you needing to heal or playing like a melee but without the benefits of talents and passives for it in order to maintain THP.

I do not know what diff you play at, or how you play.
I (legend/cata+) have never played any of the classes in the way that you describe (trailing behind or barely using melee), which would make nb useful.

[Frostysir]

Waystalker and Pyro are the two main targets, for both of them it´s desirable to use ranged a lot which means they can go minutes without refilling much THP at all. While still having good enough inherent generation to make do in bigger fights. That in turn though makes them vulnerable to chip damage… even susceptible to going down to something silly like a slaverat spawning behind them with a light poke.

Really, this kinda goes for any ranged career, if they got enough THP generation without boon and enough melee comfort then being able to negate poke damage is really great. Going into battle at max or nearly max health is neat.

[Flawless]

@Frostysir

Waystalker […] can go minutes without refilling much THP

Maybe if you spam swiftbow all day (which is not that great).
With any other ranged option, not using melee quite often, will make you a low value teammate on top of leaving you with thp issues.
You have access to “thp on melee hit”, so you can farm tons of thp on hordes and reset the thp decay timer on any random enemy without requiring the kill.

@Frostysir

Pyro […] can go minutes without refilling much THP

Again, not using melee quite often, will usually make you a low value teammate on top of leaving you with thp issues.

Pyro also has access to “thp on melee hit”, so you can farm tons of thp on hordes and reset the thp decay timer on any random enemy without requiring the kill.
You can also generate thp with your ult.
Melee hits make your ult recharge faster (on top of generating thp with lvl 5 talent).

If you run out of thp with Waystalker or Pyromancer, that is on you.
Both have great ways to sustain, which makes NB bad for them.

Also, both have an ult that deals damage.
Being able to purposely take damage thanks to boon, allows you to deal more damage.

[Frostysir]

@Flawless

Maybe if you spam swiftbow all day (which is not that great).

Or longbow, or hagbane, or even javelins.

The only ranged weapon she has with any downtime is moonbow.

@Flawless

Again, not using melee quite often, will make you a low value teammate on top of leaving you with thp issues.

How does less melee lower value if she´s packing a dang magic staff? Several of which are veeery darn powerful? And how is THP an issue if she has full health from regenerating?

@Flawless

Pyro also has access to “thp on melee hit”, so you can farm tons of thp on hordes and reset the thp decay timer on any random enemy without requiring the kill.

Exactly, you dont need boon to have plenty of THP, that´s partly the idea.

@Flawless

You can also generate thp with your ult.

That means giving up Blazing roulette though, big loss of damage, which isnt even needed if you are comfy in melee anyway.

@Flawless

If you run out of thp with Waystalker or Pyromancer, that is on you.
Both have great ways to sustain, which makes NB bad for them.

On the contrary, its because of their great sustain that NB Is good for them, not needing to worry about neither hordes nor chip damage.

@Flawless

Also, both have an ult that deals damage.
Being able to purposely take damage thanks to boon, allows you to deal more damage.

I disagree, if you use this strategy you are basically employing the Zealot strategy for the sake of their abilities with none of the melee boons and extra survival power. Being forced to constantly run and melee while dropping a lot of ranged uptime and possibly even damage potential is a big nono for a career specialized in doing it. Plus the rewards are not amazing either.

[Flawless]

@Frostysir

its because of their great sustain that NB Is good for them

How is NB good, BECAUSE you can sustain thp (which makes NB worthless)?

@Frostysir

Being forced to constantly run and melee while dropping a lot of ranged uptime and possibly even damage potential is a big nono for a career specialized in doing it.

That is the point… you are maximizing your dmg output by NOT constantly using your ranged weapon.

[Riku]

all i see here is:

NB is useless because refined players with optimised builds invalidate its effect.

A new player is neither refined nor runs optimsed builds, if he wants to shoot alot and take NB he would benefit from NB more.

the playerbase should teach players what are and aren’t good/bad habbits, not the game, all the game should do is provide sufficient information, to decide for yourself.

[Flawless]

@Riku

A new player is neither refined nor runs optimsed builds, if he wants to shoot alot and take NB he would benefit from NB more.

A new player who is not refined, probably takes a lot more dmg than what NB sustains.
Then they get downed and sit only on THP after drinking a pot (making NB useless).

Meanwhile, boon would have increased the value they got from a pot on top of increasing thp gain and thereby boosting survivability.

I am not saying that there is absolutely no possible scenario in which NB might be useful. I am pretty sure that i suggested to actually test and find out just how useful NB is for the individual:

@Flawless

Use natural bond.
Look at the recording of a mission (or try to keep track during the mission).
Every second that you have any temp hp at all: natural bonds value = 0.

Meanwhile, the “pro NB guy“ does not really know how NB or barkskin works.

[Frostysir]

@Flawless

How is NB good, BECAUSE you can sustain thp (which makes NB worthless)?

Because if you do not need more THP generation for big fights then you will get the THP replaced with green health which doesnt decay while you shoot or go through a walking section.

@Flawless

That is the point… you are maximizing your dmg output by NOT constantly using your ranged weapon.

A ranged career does more damage with their ranged weapons though? Especially since WS ability output is too weak, Pyro meanwhile…can do it but does even more damage at a distance. Plus, blazing offers more ability casts for more damage.

If you wana melee, why play ranged?

[Flawless]

My god… who am i talking to?