OP has a real problem understanding when his problems are him wrestling the basic game mechanics hoping a different game engine entirely will fall out. it’s a co-op survival shooter game, enemies coming out from unexpected sides is part of the genre. OP must be a frequently angry guy.
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Sorry it went over your head.
When we found out about ranged dodge autofail, people hated it.
When they nerfed psyker, (every time) people hated it.
When they found out about cheat spawns, people hated it.
When they made us walk past the cash shop.
When … etc etc etc…
And now they don’t want to give people freedom over their builds inside the narrow group of builds possible.
Most people are gone. Might consider it’s because they haven’t been allowed to play the game in any way that’s outside a narrow concept thought up by someone who mostly doesn’t even talk to them.
And, TBH, “It’s suppose to be bad” isn’t really much of an argument.
Nor is the shallow idea that someone pointing out the pattern of the problems somehow doesn’t understand that the problems are there by design when that’s been the basic concept of the whole post.
Guys, stop trying to argue tactics.
In the game we’re in a hive city. To get an idea of what that means:
Imagine Tokyo.
Now imagine Tokyo’s urban sprawl consisting of only high rise buildings.
Now stack ten of them on top of each other.
Now extend it a couple Tokyo’s worth down into the ground.
There are billions of people all around you, wherever you are and in all directions.
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Not really the point. Getting distracted by only one item on the list isn’t productive. But to answer it, putting in a network of hallways the bad guys can use and the player’s can’t is a part of it.
The problem isn’t the number of people, the problem is the cheat spawns, invisible walls, and ‘conveniently placed’ doors which open to those invisible walls that are only walls to the players and not the bad guys.
[Note: until now mostly avoided ‘things they didn’t do but should’ Mostly I tried to talk of ‘things done have a specific pattern.’ But the things -specifically not done- are still important.]
Throw as many bad guys at us as you want, but make them come from ‘somewhere’ and not through a door we can’t enter or (mostly) even see into the space behind. Ideally let us barricade the door, weld it shut with a lasgun, shove a broken chuck of metal into it’s gears, nail it shut with a thunderhammer, or lock some of the doors with override codes. A really good addition would be 'no spawns inside X radius of a player so all enemies have to come from somewhere and that somewhere needs to be far enough away the player has a chance to see/hear them coming. ’
But even without that, don’t just have them spawn right in front or behind me with no point of origin. Let us hear them breathe or make footstep sounds or their gear rattle.
Are you making a ‘horde shooter’ or ‘five nights at freddy’s’?
But no, it’s “We don’t want you to even know there’s not enemies in the space you are actually looking at.”
As well as
We don’t want you using ranged up close,
We don’t want you having lore accurate w40k melee weapons,
–Don’t want you getting to use what we did give you without tedious activation-
—Don’t even want you to be able to move correctly -during- tedious activation.
----Don’t even want to make activation duration long enough to take six steps so you can have it ready in advance.
We don’t want you flanking the enemy,
We don’t want you hearing the enemy, (except when we do)
We don’t want you able to switch weapons effectively, (core mech in v1 and v2 to deal with disablers)
—even if you prepared it in advance by reloading before moving on.
We don’t want you separating even a little.
We don’t want you building your weapons any way you want,
We don’t want you to be able to see what’s in the store for your other characters without more load screens (there’s a great mod for that btw)
We don’t want let you see where all the ranged threats are with the vet ult that says it shows where all the ranged enemies are.
We don’t want you seeing what’s in the shop without passing the cash shop.
tl:dr
All player complaints up until now have been one of the following.
- Fix X to follow the lore.
- Fix the bug.
- Stop controlling me.
And #3 has proven to be the vast majority of complaints.
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I mean there is a significant issue (with significant evidence) that enemies will in fact spawn right behind you. Not go through a door, not “teleport” (which sounds a lot like explaining away a bug as a feature), just straight up broken spawns putting enemies where they shouldnt be because the game has a broken spawner being used by the AI director. While i believe having someone watching your flanks and/or rear is a good and ALWAYS used necessity for squad dynamics, the game has such a sudden and jarring spawn of enemies that it is a nuisance.
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If that’s the case than it is an issue - I personally don’t see enemies “appear” as they always come through windows or doors, but maybe I just haven’t noticed yet.
There was this one map I remember to have witnessed the actual spawn of a large traitor group - yet that part of the map got fixed in a patch a long time ago.
Dude you have absolutely no grasp of urban combat so just stop argueing it - again educate yourself by reading about urban warfare or just be quiet about the matter.
Even in a comparable medium soviet industrial city as Stalingrad the urban terrain allowed so much concealed movement that no side could ever be sure where the enemy is - only that area that is firmly in one sides hand is secure - but only at that time and only in that specific area. The upper floor my already be in enemy hands and once a position is abandoned it immediatly becomes insecure again. Even months after the 6th army surrendered the soviets would encounter small groups of Germans still fighting a lost fight, despite the city firmly under soviet control again.
And that was Stalingrad - Tokio is 10 times larger and Atoma Prime 1000 times…
The game depicts that actually really well - in many missions you pass PDF defensive positions - ergo you’re leaving the friendly controlled area - after that you are under a constant 360° threat as would be expected in regard to real world tactics. If you have anything of the following in your back you aren’t save: Doors, windows, hole in roof or floor or even a scalable wall. In real life enemy combat engenieers might even open solid walls in your back. The only way to have a free back is if someone is watching it. The idea you could creat a “frontline” in a city - let alone with 4 individuals is completely unrealistic.
You’ve chosen one of the few actually realistic aspects of DT to show the devs are controling us…
I’m not convinced.
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I’ve noticed a good portion of enemies drop from ledges above and holes in ceiling. If you’ve never noticed those locations, I can understand you think enemies just appear behind you.
For example, next time you do the Ascension Riser mission, after having placed the two power canisters, and while waiting for the train to move, look up.
You can always find ground you can defend without enemies sneaking up on you, but it’s not always obvious where.
Not even slightly the point, plus asked and answered. Point is the MECHNINCS of cheat spawns.
Right now you can be LOOKING AT A SPACE and see NO ONE IS IN THE OPEN EMPTY SPACE take one step and it’s full. Might be a whole patrol, might be 1 zombie or melee guy spawning right behind you.
Next, Spawn rooms. Spawn rooms change which one fills depending on where you stand. Learn to read instead of bitching about Stalingrad. Plenty of data up there you didn’t read. Want to go into stalingrad? Show proof of rooms one side couldn’t enter and doors they couldn’t seal instead of snipers taking potshots across a rubblezone.
Sheeeeesh. (BTW, you might not want to talk about other people’s ‘understanding’ when you don’t even understand the topic you are in.)
That’s true, they do, but those come from ‘somewhere’ so they aren’t really the irritation that the ones that come from ‘nowhere’ are. Though when that DOES happen, they really ought to make a sound when they land. Now, I don’t know what a man sounds like when he falls 2-4 stories, nails the landing, and stands up and starts walking, but I’m sure it’s not dead silent.
I agree, and I’ve been trying to always call them cheat spawns, since a w40k lightning strike isn’t at all what this is, but I’m at a bit of a loss for a good term for these. "Improper spawns’ ?
That said, there are a lot of ‘bugs’ they have declared to ‘not be bugs’ in the past, IE, the Vet’s ult not showing ‘all shooters’ because ‘those guys shooting at you aren’t shooters.’
You keep citing this one broken elevator spawn on Refinery Delta. It was a very specific bug where it would populate the new area a certain amount of time after the elevator stopped instead of after it started as it was supposed to.
That bug was fixed a long time ago.
This game spawns a lot of enemies. It tries to pop them into existence where we can’t see it to avoid breaking the immersion but every so often, especially at the start of hordes or special waves, and especially if you are either well ahead of or behind the group, you can see them spawn in. I remember in VT2 the map Against the Grain was famous for it since you could see so far in some spots. You’d see a whole wave of chaos fanatics pop up on the big hill under the oak tree like a Rotblood farmer went along and planted them in rows.
They try to make that stuff happen out of sight and it usually does. I’m sorry you see it every so often and it takes you out of it but, hey, get over it.
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Because I have a really good picture of it. It’s certainly not the only place or time we get cheatspawns, but it’s one of the best recordings. Maybe that one specific spawn was fixed, but lots of things haven’t been.
And for all the fixation on the spawns in my thread about negative design patterns, it really is about the patterns, not the specific datapoints that make up the overall pattern.
The point here ON THE SPAWNS is the game won’t allow you to have SITUATIONAL AWARENESS because having it would prevent whatever it is they think they are going for.
No matter how hard you work, you won’t get STIUATIONAL AWARENESS even of your immediate area because they leave out sounds, spawn enemies right behind you, move which door is spawning enemies not in a random but a somewhat controlled way, (mostly) don’t provide sounds except at the last moment, and give no options to close off routes to the enemy while closing off those routes to you.
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On spawns. . .
While agree with your points Eisenfaust, this is a situation where the actual answer is both or all of the above when it comes to spawns.
The game does both, using elaborate and properly telegraphed spawn points, and the ai director also can and will spawn enemies very close to players from some very nonsense spawn points. The latter are designed to make it look like as though the horde or enemy has stalked the team or approached from a spot farther away from where they actually spawned. Both from thin air, boxes, corners, etc. On top of all this is the fact that if you suffer from latency/server lag issues spawns that may come from proper approaches and thin air spawns alike will seem like they pop in on top of you as well.
Overall i don’t necessarily mind the way the spawn system currently works. While stuff can spawn from previously secured areas it is less likely than from unsecured areas, and it is often only done if the team lingers in transitional spots for too long or the usual one or two disabler spawn to bully stragglers, and loot goons. Run the third person mod and take it slow, look around and you’ll start noticing a lot of stuff when it comes to how the spawn system works. If you’re attentive enough you can catch some hilarious stuff like entire hordes coming out from behind a box as though they’re coming out of a clown car.
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It drives me nuts for two very big reasons.
(And while I doubt I’m the only one, I might be the best at talking about why.)
- I’ve worked hard to develop situational awareness in real life. If you read anything about self defense, be it unarmed martial arts or getting a pistol carry license or any of this, they will always stress the importance of situational awareness. I’ll be out with others and I’ll very softly comment on something, and hear back ‘oh, I didn’t even see that guy.’
Col Jeff Cooper, who worked with such luminaries as Randy Weaver (see weaver stance in pistol marksmanship, the first modern stance,) on developing techniques of improved pistol handling after WW2 and had his own column in Guns and Ammo until his death, used this color chart. You should only be in ‘white’ if you are asleep, and if you make it to ‘red’ you are actually in a fight and swinging or aiming.
- I have worked personally with sound designers and taken classes on sound design in college, though I’m not a sound designer myself. See the video I put above on sound design. I know a little about how sound designers think, and they tend to be really fascinating people. I worked with one in France who was as thin and tall as a beanpole, pony tail, sunglasses, and always had seven knives on him in various places. Very cool guy.
I know what rules they use, I know a bit about how they think, and they would hate all the missed opportunities for creativity.
Somewhere there is a sound designer who is very, very angry with his boss at Fat Shark.
That or they didn’t get a professional.
Combine the massive quantity of missing or muffled and underdeveloped sound with the practice of situational awareness in your everyday life, and you have an irritation factory.
Check this out. A zombie lands from the next floor up, a giant door opens, and some dregs armed with rifles come out.
There are some sounds here, but not much, and sounds they did put in could almost be anything. Plus, no closed captions anywhere in the game. (subtitles yes, but no captions.)
Within limits. Those being different map modifiers, different classes and builds, and if they ever decide to just rip the bandaid off, different gear setups.
Differing playstyles in coop games just causes them to fall into a mess. Just look at how people respond when speedrunner types and slower, more exploratory type players get together in V2. Nobody’s happy. Now expand that to include the types of flexibility you’re calling for. It’d be terrible for everyone involved.
I understand the call for flexibility, but it needs to be limited in the interest of keeping the overall game stable.
The crafting grind is a different issue. And yes, it’s still pretty average even after the recent lock change.
It does happen very occasionally. You’ll just see an enemy pop into existence in front of you, or turn around to see one in a place where there’s no possible way it could’ve got there from any nearby spawn point.
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I think I captured one today. It’s possible though that an ogyrn in full armor fell from above and made no sound though… Sound in this game needs so much work.
(BTW, just reuploaded it a little longer on the front end.)
To play devils advocate, I think that spot on the map is kinda f*cky wucky, it wont let you approach the door as there is an invisible wall there, which might also be blocking the sound ques behind it.
I’ve been recording quite a lot lately, I find you get the clearest sound, or lack of it, if you turn off the music and play psyker. No gunshots of your own to listen past.
Give it a try on a low difficulty and just ‘listen’ and tell me if you can tell what is going on from the sound more then 5% of the time.
Also, here’s that same crusher walking in full armor on a rickety metal grating and sand. Bit of mumbling, but do you detect any sounds at all of his movement? What do you think an enormous (IDK, 400-600 pound?) abhuman in full carapace armor would sound like in motion? What about just the tubes on his chin?
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It’s really just buggy spawns, Vermintide 2 has had them for its entire lifespan and quite a few still haven’t been fixed: check it out
In regards to the sound design, it’s also a recurring problem from Vermintide 2 — give it a search on these forums. This is a Fatshark problem, maybe stemming from the weird game engine they use.
True, but did you ever ask if they didn’t fix it on purpose?
Now, it’s quite possible that I’m wrong, and all of this is just extremely lazy programming, but I strongly suspect that these aren’t considered bugs, but features.
Mostly because of all the other stuff (locks, speedbumps, wallet, lectures, ) mentioned kind of combines to a very specific user experience.
But it could just be lazy programming. I set up another thread to complain about the sound in feedback, which follows that assumption.
sounds like a conspiracy theory. And no it is not about pure controlling itself it is simply about player retention and money. It is a company, they look at which methods make you buy something and which methods makes you play longer, if you play longer and more often but you dont have fun the company wont bother because they have made there money.
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