Enemy spam problem - discussion, feedback and ideas for a solution

Hello FatShark Forums! I wish to talk about the issue with enemy spam in Darktide, give constructive feedback and provide possible ideas for the developers to fix this problem.

After patch 13 happened and talent trees were introduced, a problem with balance arose as players became too powerful. The developers decided to balance it out by increasing AI director’s enemy spawn. This, while effective at first, caused issues that are still present to this day:

-Too much enemies can prove to be too much for players computers, causing a drop in frames and game’s performance;

-Too many enemies is too much for the game’s engine, which leads to things like silent specialists, which no one likes or wants.

This problem can be fixed or at least improved, though, and I think the way to do it is to increase the power of some enemies and in turn decrease their spawn numbers. I wish to go over every enemy that I think could use this change and what would it do for them and their place within Darktide.

Enemy Ogryns

Enemy Ogryns are supposed to be Chaos Warriors and Bulwarks from Vermintide 2. On paper, they should be a type of enemy that is very dangerous in 1 on 1 battle and that the entire team should focus on to take it down as quickly as possible. However, in Darktide that is not the case at all. Enemy ogryns are too weak, and because of that, the AI director needs to spawn them in ridiculously high amounts for them to be threatening.

Crushers, Bulwarks and Reapers all have the same 2 issues:

  1. They are too easily staggered. There are too many ways to immobilize them, which allows players to kill them before they can even do anything. There’s no need for teamwork because one reject can easily stagger them for 2 seconds with things like a special attack to the head from some weapons. The ogryn class is the worst offender of that issue, being able to heavily stagger them with even as little as one light hit from some weapons.

  2. Enemy Ogryns have too little heath. Even in the Auric difficulty, some weapons can kill them in 1–4 hits. Yes, not all weapons are as powerful as the Dueling sword or the Knife, but the point is that the majority of weapons allow a single reject to easily deal with any type Ogryn in a matter of seconds without needing the help of their team, rendering those enemies as completely harmless.

Case in point, Ogryns as enemies do not have enough health and get staggered way too easily. So, in order for them to be threatening, the AI director needs to spam those enemies in high numbers to make them be able to do any kind of damage.

To make Ogryns be more on part with their Vermintide 2 counterparts, so we do not need to fight 4+ of them in every fight they appear in, I’d suggest two buffs:

  1. Increase their stagger resistance. Things like:

-explosions from grenades, barrels;

-impact from Friendly Rock to the head;

-Veteran’s Voice of Command;

They should stagger enemy Ogryns, but not knock them over. Though, abilities like the Ogryn and Arbites charge should still be able to do so. I also think that weapons with a special attack that staggers smaller enemies should be able to cancel the attacks of enemy Ogryns, but not immobilize them for 2 whole seconds, like they do currently. Additionally, in my opinion, the Ogryn class should still be allowed to heavily stagger these enemies with his attacks. It should just require more hits from him than 1–3 hits to the head.

  1. Increase their health. Since the idea is to see them in smaller numbers, having singular Ogryns be able to tank a lot more damage is the direction I’d aim them in. If we’re talking number I’d go as far as giving them even +100% more health since the result is to work with your team to kill them.

  2. Make Ogryns be able to launch players in the air with their upward attacks, just like Scab Capitan’s knee jump-kick. This one is a bit specific, and it honestly isn’t really 100% a necessity to make Ogryns more threatening, but an additional thing that, in my opinion, would communicate to the players how powerful this enemy is. I got this idea from Chaos Warriors from Vermintide 2 since they can do exactly that.

  3. *Special addition to Bulwarks only: Make their shield have a stagger meter that, when filled up after enough attacks, breaks their guard, opening them up for attacks. Since, with increased stagger resistance, they would not be able to get staggered so easily anymore, it would make them much more annoying to deal with. Adding this mechanic would fix that issue. Bulwarks in Vermintide 2 work in this exact way, and they fill their role as a challenging enemy.

  4. *Special addition to Reapers only: Increase their damage and suppression resistance. Those buffs would significantly increase the danger that Reapers are and would, in turn, make them a much higher priority when they appear on the battlefield. Additionally, it could also incentivize players to use cover when they know they won’t be able to stop the Reaper from shooting.

Not only those buffs would allow for much less of these enemies to be present in every game, but I believe that it would also fundamentally improve and underline the core of Darktide’s gameplay: Teamwork.

In Vermintide 2 Chaos Warriors and Bulwarks are enemies that are encouraged to fight with a team. Even the characters within the game itself underline that part. They say lines like “Chaos Warrior! Maybe don’t fight it alone! or “Riot Shield, work as a team!”. If Darktide’s counterparts can be at a similar power level and would spawn in way smaller numbers, it would encourage players to essentially gang up on enemy Ogryns which, in turn, encourages teamwork between the players.

This kind of dynamic already exists in Vermintide 2. Once a Chaos Warrior appears, the majority of the time, the whole team starts attacking it to quickly kill it. It makes random players share a common goal: killing a dangerous and tanky enemy. This encourages teamwork between the players, and it’s something that, I think, the developers should always strive for. This dynamic already exists with bosses in Darktide and I think that the changes I proposed would allow Ogryns to become that as well.

Dreg and Scab enemies

When I say “Dregs” and “Scabs” I’m referring to every enemy that is not an Ogryn. I’ve been thinking what can be done to both normal and elite enemies to make them more dangerous but, in turn, require less of them on the screen. I’m pretty confident that I’ve found a solution that not only solves this problem but additionally makes these two groups have their own special traits that make them more special and different from one another.

  1. Increase the movement and attack speed of the Dregs. Specifically, I mean that Dreg enemies should get:

-Faster walking, running speed;

-Faster attack speed;

-Faster recovery from attacks;

-Faster recovery from being staggered/knocked on the ground;

-Faster reaction to seeing the players approach;

-Faster swapping between weapons (from ranged to melee and vice versa).

This would make things like Dreg Rager’s attack combo a lot more threatening in higher difficulties, which, in turn, would require less of them to be spawned in the game. I’m also including ranged attacks with these buffs so that would make enemies like the Dreg Shotgunner and Dreg Gunner give out more damage than their Scab counterparts and, in turn, require less of them to spawn and remain just as dangerous.

  1. Increase the damage reduction that flak armor provides for Scabs. I am not familiar with how much damage reduction the current flak armor provides, so I will not be able to give any numbers. However, what I can say is that, in my opinion, it would be worth to increase the flak armor value just enough, so even a regular roamer enemy like a Scab Bruiser would require at least one additional bodyshot to kill. This would make every Scab enemy more tanky, but slower in comparison to the Dreg enemies. And of course, it would make it so we can have fewer enemies on the screen, and they will remain just as threatening.

Maulers

Maulers are essentially a smaller version of a Crusher. They have a deadly overhead attack, but aside from that, they have don’t really have anything interesting to offer. The AI director spawns a horrendously high amount of these enemies at higher difficulties because they die even quicker than a Crusher and are even easier to stagger.

I’ve already talked about my idea to make Scabs have a buff to flak armor. That alone would already make Maulers more Tanky, but I think they could still use one additional buff:

  1. Increase their health. It will make them even more resilient, and it would allow the AI director to spawn much less of them in game.

Ragers

Ragers have a bit more to offer than Mauler when it comes to their attacks, and they also suffer from being spammed by the AI director.

In my opinion, the buff to the flak armor for the Scabs and the buff for the speed of the Dregs is enough to decrease Ragers spawn numbers without any additional changes.

However, if changes to the Dregs and Scabs is not the route the developers would want to take, then my suggestion to the Ragers is to:

  1. Increase their health. To make them be able to take more hits before death and not die in one hit from some weapons.

  2. Increase their stagger resistance while in their combo. This is a feature that was, once again, already present in Vermintide 2 with Savages and in that game it worked well so it could work well in Darktide as well.

The Ranged enemies problem

The main goal of ranged enemies is to be threatening at range. That isn’t really the case in Darktide because players can abuse the slide mechanic to be able to constantly dodge their shots.

The way I see it, is that the slide mechanic is a large part as to why the AI director spawns so much ranged Elites. The more ranged enemies, the more health they can take away from the spam-sliding player in the small time window that they are not sliding and capable of taking damage.

In order to make ranged enemies more threatening, something must be done about the slide mechanic first. I don’t think it’s really possible to fully solve the issue of spam-sliding. However, in my opinion, there are two changes that can be implemented to how the slide works that would make it harder to abuse:

  1. Make slides become ineffective against ranged attacks when the stamina bar is depleted. To slide, a player needs to be running, so with each slide a player looses a bit of their stamina. This would make it so that when the player wants to spam slide, they will be aware that they can’t do it forever.

  2. Adding to that, make slides consume a bit of the player’s stamina. Making it so both running and sliding would consume stamina would simply decrease the amount of time a player can spam slide.

Again, I admit those two changes wouldn’t really fix the problem. However, it would force the players to be more aware of their stamina and would also discourage them from sliding through the entire level, simply because constant sliding would no longer provide safety from ranged attacks.

Gunners

The already aforementioned changes to the slide mechanic and Scabs, Dregs buff would already make Gunners more threatening. I however would still propose buffs to those enemies to make them even more threatening at range and higher priority.

  1. Increase their damage and suppression resistance. Just as with Reapers, this change is not only to make Gunners more dangerous, but to also increase the incentive to use cover when they start shooting. Using cover is a mechanic that is very rarely used by players in Darktide. This buff aims to encourage people to start using cover more often when fighting with ranged enemies.

Shotgunners

Just like with Gunners, Shotgunners don’t need many buffs. They are already completely immune to suppression, so there’s one thing I would do to make them more dangerous.

  1. Increase their damage. Them making more damage means there can be less of them. Simple as.

And that is all I have to say. This is just my opinion on how I would approach the issue of enemy spam. I know that I took a lot of inspiration from Vermintide 2, but that does not mean that I want Darktide to be Vermintide 3. It’s just that those features are what makes these enemies be so fun to fight against in Vermintide 2. That is why I think taking said features and adding them to Darktide’s enemies would make them much more fun to fight against. At least, in my opinion, it is more fun to fight against 2–6 Bulwarks/Chaos Warriors in Vermintide 2 than it is to fight 4–15 Bulwarks/Crushers in Darktide.

Thank you for reading through this lengthy post of mine. If you have any questions about something I wrote, want to add your own ideas or just want to have a discussion about the issue I spoke about in here, I’m more that happy to talk about it. :grin:

Cheers!

6 Likes

I assume this is balance ideas for Auric and not Havoc? (which imo is fine, I think Auric should be designed to be a better experience before we can move on to Havoc, just want clarification)

A lot of this just seems to come down to “buff health and damage,” which while alright just continues to make Darktide power scale. Additionally, this will leave currently underpowered weapons even further behind. I can’t imagine trying to fight a pack of faster, stronger, stagger resistant Dreg Ragers with an Ironhelm or Mk 4 Chainsword.

This is a problem with weapon balance and not really enemy balance, and is the reason why Dregs are tankier than Scabs at the moment. Every weapon has armor damage modifiers against the different types of armor. The problem is at this point pretty much every weapon has good flak damage, or flak damage that can easily be made good by taking a +25% flak perk on a weapon. Since Scabs have less health han Dregs, this makes them easier to kill than them.

I do agree with a lot of your Ogryn takes. They should 100% be more stagger resistant. I don’t even think most weapon specials should be able to stagger them out of an attack. And making them have a longer ttk to kill would be great.

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Well, the way I see it, while it may be even harder to kill a Dreg Rager with an Ironhelm or a Mk 4 Chainsword, when you will inevitably be forced to melee fight them you will have to deal with 1–3 of them at most. This is a lot more manageable than being forced to melee fight eight of them at least.

I also don’t think that I’ve mentioned this in my lengthy post, but I am in full support of nerfing the dueling sword. So I am also hoping that if the enemies are to ever get a rework/buff, that will happen somewhere at the same time when the dueling sword also gets a nerf. Basically what I’m getting at here is that I want there to be a level of challenge with every elite. I wish for every elite enemy to bring a considerable threat to the table and not need to be spawned in a number higher than six in order to shake things up. And in my opinion, the changes I have proposed will bring about precisely these results.

Also, I think you highlighted the issue that I did not even mention here about flak armor. And it honestly just cements my point that it would be a good idea to buff the flak armor. Having Scabs be considerably harder to kill compared to the Dregs, while also keeping in mind that there will no longer be a never-ending sea of them in every game, sounds like a good idea to me, in my opinion.

Also, I believe that the +25% damage to flak Perk shouldn’t really make Scabs die quicker than the Dregs. That’s how strong I wish the flak armor to be. Maybe as a way to compensate, their sheer tankiness would be to make them be slower than they are currently, even if just by a bit. It would stark, an even more massive contrast between the Sixth and the Admonition.

And it just makes sense that the faction covered in head to toe in steel and metal would be noticeably slower than a faction condensed of drugged up dudes dressed in robes, or sometimes even less.

The last thing is unrelated to the discussion, but I just wish to know: how to take specific sentences from a post/comment and put them in my replies, like you did with my suggestion for the Scabs? For the life of me, I just can’t figure it out.

Thanks!

Highlighting the text should give you a pop-up to quote text.

There’s also the [“] button in the comment editor.

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I don’t know if it just havoc talking but the idea of shotgunners doing more damage scares me lol generally agree with the post tho for auric but I would hope for a major weapon rebalanced patch before this would theoretically happen as alot of weapons would brake this idea,also I’m sure if the philosophy of chaos warriors from VT2 would entirely fit for orgyns, specifically for reapers I think reapers, in like 2 or 3’s would maybe be a bit too tanky( if a weapon balance patch happens alongside this) and maybe too much, but like the idea

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I see. Thank you so much!

Well, something I think I forgot to mention is that my philosophy, behind stronger enemies but fewer in numbers, is that the amount of enemies should always be small enough that players can help each other in taking them down.

This is pretty much how I view Vermintide 2 functioning with its enemies. There’s always enough enemies for everyone to fight. However, most of the time, players stick together, or at least in pairs, taking down elites together. The majority of moments where a player is forced to take on more than one elite enemy is when they actively decide to not stick close to the team.

After all, that is what one of the pillars of Tide games should be, in my opinion: Staying together. And in Darktide there’s really no need for doing so, especially in any non-Havoc game. The only thing that is a threat to a lone reject wandering far away from their team is, ironically, a silent specialist who can disable and leave them to their painful fate (unless they are the Arbites, but in that case Trappers always exist).

I’m all for encouraging teamwork, that’s one of the things havoc does right in my opinion and draws me into it, but balancing purely around team cohesion can hurt solo viability, especially in Darktide, where skill levels vary and good players often carry. The top 1% will always find ways to breeze through content so balancing around them isn’t practical and often leads into a funnel meta pipeline that ruins experimentation and variability.

Instead of just scaling by team size, why not factor in individual playstyle like the director already is capable of? If someone’s consistently killing while far from the team, the AI could “overwhelm” them unless it’s a clutch moment, where easing off preserves the drama.

That said, this could be abused by trolls who sprint ahead, trigger spawns, and leave the team to clean up. So the system would need to recognize intent, tracking things like damage dealt, aggro drawn, or time spent in combat to tell the difference between a clutch and a bait.

Havoc missions already do something similar with the bulwark wall sandwich horde: if someone backs off too much, it spawns behind them to trap the team. It’s a clever way to punish excessive retreat and force commitment.

Right now, the director mostly punishes slow pacing and camping. But if you keep a steady, fast (not reckless) tempo, Havoc missions are manageable with solid DPS and game knowledge. So why not lean into that and make the game respond to how players engage, not just where they stand?

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“Havoc missions already do something similar with the bulwark wall sandwich horde: if someone backs off too much, it spawns behind them to trap the team. It’s a clever way to punish excessive retreat and force commitment”

I don’t particulary enjoy Bulwark spam, but this is a very clever way to force commitment. If Fatshark applied suggestions to make Elites more dangerous so there could be fewer of them, this could also be done with a Gunner + Reaper + Shooter kill squad that has special coding to hold position on a choke point (such as a bridge or corridor) the players have already progressed through, and despawn if players advance further in the map.

“So the system would need to recognize intent, tracking things like damage dealt, aggro drawn, or time spent in combat to tell the difference between a clutch and a bait.”

An exceptional mention. High aggro drawn, low team Coherency rate and/or far distance from team but high map progression, maybe with low damage dealt would be prime indicators of a “baiter”. This would be the perfect target for Specialists to focus the majority of their efforts on, and in a way they do already like you said as Disablers prioritize players out of Coherency.

Whereas on the flip side, the Director could reduce Disabler/Burster spawn rate if there was only one player (bots included) left standing.

These are all good metrics to track, though in the current state with the game engine pushed to the limits - as indicated by the plethora of silent Specialists in higher intensity engagements; to be most effective these changes would likely need to follow a reduction in Elite/Spec density across all difficulties.

Without outlier Talents/Weapons/Blessings nerfed and/or Elites made more dangerous first, however, reducing the density likely introduces the scenario where Darktide loses player retention very quickly.

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I think reworking/buffing the elites and improving on the AI director could happen when the next update rolls around. I have a feeling we will see a new trailer in just 1–2 weeks from now. Furthermore, I’m also confident that this update will introduce a new enemy faction. And if I’m correct in my assumption, then the time to tackle the issue with enemy spam couldn’t be better, in my opinion.

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I certainly hope so. There’s no game that quite captures the Warhammer40k experience like Darktide does. Even with the imperfections at launch, the fact that the game has dramatically improved in many ways overtime and the devs make effort to apply feedback leads me to believe Darktide’s best days are yet to come.

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Great ideas, IMO, I think we are at a good point in the lifecycle that all these feedback points can be applied to a new enemy faction, a tall vs wide discussion.

Introduction a “tall” enemy faction (less enemies more health) could be a nice change of pace for games.

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density for density’s sake is boring game design that encourages weapons that completely invalidate density (rumbler, purg and trauma, flamer)

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density for density’s sake is boring game design that encourages weapons that completely invalidate density (rumbler, purg and trauma, flamer)

Which is exactly why I believe that Vermintide 2 is still better than Darktide with how it goes about utilizing its enemies. Fewer numbers, more power. Though if Darktide were to ever change its approach to how many enemies it spawns and how powerful said enemies are, with additional, slight adjustments and improvements to the AI director, I believe it would surpass Vermintide 2 as the best Tide game out there by a long shot.

At least, gameplay-wise. I still think we could use some more story/missions and an ending to the campaign with a Final boss fight to match Vermintide’s 2 epic battle with Rasknitt at the Skittergate.

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There’s times for density that make sense, but yeah Elite/Spec density cranked up to 100 just for the sake of band-aiding power creep is not good. Sound cues are inconsistent, game is inconsistent.

The times for high density are pox, moebian 51st, and bruiser horde ambushes with a few melee Elites sprinkled in, and then times when the hordes should dial back for Auspex/Capacitor events.

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After my latest Vermintide 2 playthrough I noticed a particular feature that Darktide’s elites do not have, and it’s probably what makes the former so dangerous. That feature is pushing.

Elites in Vermintide 2 can push players to create distance between them and the target. When pushed, any action that the player was doing is cancelled and the player themselves are stunned for 1 second. For that 1 second, they are open to an attack.

That one simple action can be deadly when fighting more than one elite, especially on higher difficulties like the Legendary or Cataclysm.

Darktide maulers do not have that feature, and that is what makes them so weak. This one feature would make 3 maulers on Auric be significantly more threatening compared to 15 without that feature (or a health buff, like I suggested, as well).

So to sum up, pushing is a feature that I think would be pretty easy to add to Maulers, since a pushing/kicking animations already exist for man-sized enemies. Combine that with more health, and you have a recipe for an enemy that doesn’t need to be spammed in ridiculously high numbers in order to be a threat on the battlefield.

What do you guys think? It seems like no one here even remembered that the elites in Vermintide 2 could push players, and yet it plays such a big role in making them so dangerous. I hope FatShark can notice this and add it in the future. It would really help the game, with the reduction of enemy spam, in the long run.

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DT does require you to go off for a bit to look for supplied though, ammo, crates, stimms, nades. You don’t need to be joined at the hip but you also don’t need to lone wolf it; there’s a time and a place and a rhythm to it but it ebbs and flows.

Unpopular take:

I have to ask, and I’m not pointing fingers at you or anyone else, but while there are sound issues for sure re:sound culling and some missing cues, but this point has been repeated so many times and there’s perhaps a Mandela effect going on here where it’s greatly exaggerated.

There’s a rather sizable number of users using this as an excuse to cheat (w/ mods) and I think others have been latching on to this lately like it’s gospel, call me doubting Thomas but I think it’s partly overblown and people are legit blaming the game for some of their failings (this is not DT exclusive nor new).

I have a hunch that if the mob density was pre #13 levels the relative % of “sound issues” would persist at this point.

VT and especially DT requires you to constantly be looking around and scanning for threats, being PvE you also pick up some patterns and maps have some obvious spawn points.

I’m not saying it’s always the player’s fault or always the game’s fault when you miss some cues (if they played), but it’s hardly one sided.

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The way I see it, even if silent specials never existed and were simply a construct of the playerbase imagination, the enemy spam is a thing that does exist and regardless if it’s the thing that causes silent specialists or not, it is still an issue within of itself.

And while I agree that Darktide doesn’t require you to be glued to your team 24/7, what I was saying is that the majority of time there is completely no incentive to stick to your team at all. You can be a lone wolf and succeed greatly at the expense of your team, and almost no one wants that. It just makes for an awful experience for everyone that isn’t the player running off.

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Absolutely.

Again, absolutely. The punishment for running off is mitigated by power creep and to my earlier point, almost nullified by certain mods. There’s a bit of a circular logic rationalizing for them and the two are not unrelated.

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No, no,no, no.

Pretty much everything is just “Buff numbers”. That’s worst idea, and will make game only worse, pushing many weapon of out niches.

What if needed to be done is more enemy types, new attack\animations and AI tinkering. NOT what you stated.

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