The price of running live service such as Darktide

Yep, we’re pretty in the dark.

I mean think about it.

You’re looking at writers, voice actors (estimating 30), level designers, weapon designers, character modellers, coders to bring it all together, beta testers and the people who design the systems like crafting and weapon balance. On top of that fat shark opted to go with dedicated cloud servers probably from AWS. Those are all bills to pay.

Now here is the ironic part, people want to give them money, but they set up the shop in a ridiculous FOMO fashion that is anti consumer. I would love give them money, but they’ve limited my options in how I can do so. It’s painful to watch. I heard an Xbox player asking how he can get the steel legion gear. Had to tell him that fat shark doesn’t want his money.

Someone who wants to give them money for something that they control distribution on, but they don’t want to take it.

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Generally speaking, it really depends on how it’s set up and you can’t give one precise answer for all Live Service games:

1. Organizational:
How efficient is the team? How many employees work at the company at what cost? What is the salary of the highest paid positions?

2. Infrastructure:
Where are the servers hosted? How many servers are hosted? What type of hardware is used?

3. Bureaucratic Elements outside of the previous mentioned domain:
Where is the company located and thus taxed? How efficient is the accounting done? Does the company get tax brakes or does it belong to the companies who pay extra?


We have no way to properly access how much it must cost to maintain this game. We can make estimated guesses.
We know that Fatshark uses a rather complicated server architecture: They have backend servers for the storage of player and character data. They have servers for the morning star and other separate servers for the hosted matches.

That said, we don’t know where they are located. They could be in Frankfurt am Main Germany for Europe and cost premium. They could also be placed in a cheaper European country and operate quite cost efficient.

What we do know about Fatshark’s team is that it is on the bigger side all things considered, but we also know that Fatshark pays at the lower end of the Gaming spectrum, probably somewhat more than Blizzard Entertainment but nothing too fancy.

So there is really a lot of elements here balancing each other out.

No matter the cost, though - It does not justify or necessarily call for FOMO tactics in the shop.
Many other online games have demonstrated that you can earn a pretty premium and do so without manipulative tactics.

Respecting my time also includes a game that doesn’t have any progression at all. Is it a game that is wasting my time having me play things that I don’t have fun playing in order to get to the parts that I do find fun? Then it’s not respecting my time.

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… with gambling, when you win, it’s something typically worth making the gamble (usually your money and then some)… gacha you always win something… but that something’s worth f**k-all.

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the problem is yes this game a Live service. but it how it impliment IDC about the weapons and Crafting i care about the Narrative and Progression system, yes the RNG stuff is a shrug for me, i am slightly annoyed that you don’t gain materials from selling or scrapping weapons but shrug otherwise. there is little else the dockets have uses for. but the fact is that the crafting is where we come down i would like to see a Option tree for modfications like adding in a Bayonet to the Kantreal, or a Special rounds for the Boltgun, a there are many otion like Overcharging Lasguns. and such. but the Crux of it, is the abysmal Lack of Sights for the weapon yes there a Mod but the Mods kind of Breaks every now and then.
the next is the content Delivery we get a Update seeming every quarter. yet there is little communication between FS and the Community, i see them actually doing things that are insane. and this is what really drives the Stake into the community heart. why do people have to DAta Mined to see what coming up? if you do a monthly news release saying this is what we are working on and what we are aiming for. and if there are delays say so the community is annoyed at the sliecnce.

the price is our wallets the MTX are kind of silly since your now Paying 3times the amount of reskins of the same skin i can understand a small price increase JKs there no Reason for a small Price increase the no reason for a price increase apart from when you flooded your Cash shop with ~29k aqullia XBox players. while i understand you want to accesss their pockets as well it doesn’t make sense why Do this to the customer Based your locking out a large number of people with it.

For classes/Branchs/archtype. it kind of dissappoiting at what we ae looking at. i am a Big Fan of Karskin/Stomrtrooper/Scions as a Branch of Vets. and i have talked this through verious threads. but it getting towards a Joke on what we are going to have. but Seriously one additional class/Branch a Year, and a Mission-Location set a Month would be nice. you can do it.

another form of this is the complete lacking of weapons.
it kind of sad the lacking of weapon’s like Scoped Ryza hotshot Lasguns, Hotshot Marksman rifles. and Hots Vollyguns.Preformatted text Melee weapons like Sword and Storm/combat shied. Two handed Sword. and such.

Good point. This will mean different things to different people. To me it means that I takes too long to make any meaningful progression, or it just bogs me down with stuff that I think is fundamentally boring and a waste of time. Highly subjective.

I love the actual gameplay of Vermintide. I don’t like looter shooters where you constantly get bombarded with new gear that on top of that have absolute garbage UI to compare existing gears (looking at you Borderlands, and Darktide). Diablo IV sort of gets a pass because going through gear is relatively simple there, but I play DIV despite of, not because of the loot system.

Everything except for the missions in Darktide I find boring and a complete waste of time. The crafting system is just painful to interact with where you have to run back and forth between different vendors and the chances of getting the weapon that you actually want is close to zero. I like tinkering with weapons. I like min-maxing. I like trying stuff. Darktide makes it difficult to do all of these things.

Vermintide 2 also had an atrocious crafting system (except for Winds of Magic) but at least there it was easy to grind for anything I wanted. If I want a red weapon in V2 I play legendaries until I either get lucky, or get five other red weapons that I can shape into the new one. It’s bad, but it works. There is light at the end of the tunnel and I have something to grind for. I also don’t mind the grind because the game is fun.

So yeah. A game that does not respect my time is basically a game filled with arbitrary RNG bottle necks that makes it difficult or impossible to progress in what I, in my own highly subjective opinion, would consider reasonable time.

To each his own though.

That’s exactly my point put in other words. You know in architecture a good practice building stairs is when a person sees next landing, that eases the whole experience a lot, otherwise it could be used to make your journey heavier like if it’s a temple or something they like to use this kind of tricks.

Also landings make you rest. In Darktide it’s an infinite stairs on which you step in and you don’t know if there’s an end at all.

Or as you said it, there is no light in the end.

People who use this phrase seem to focus on min-maxing and progression i got it.
Well both is to some degree a vital part of games, but i allways seconded it.

By second it do you mean agree with, or find it less important (both are fine).

I don’t need much for progression. Once I had all the gear I could ever want in V2 I kept playing just to see arbitrary achievement numbers go up (500 deeds anyone?) but I like having something to work towards and have fun along the way.

I just have no shortage of fun games to play and how Fatshark handles this situation just means I’ll play something else. There is a new level I hear… I’ll probably pop in and try that once or twice (assuming that the other inane decision of not even letting me choose what level I want to play allows me to).

Give me one gun of each type. Let me grind for weapon upgrades. Make some really hard to get or require challenge runs (a good reason to actually run full-book runs for instance), but once I have an upgrade in place, let me slot it in and out as much as I want. Winds of Magic was great, but a bit basic, and having two loot systems sucked. I don’t mind the grind because the game is fun. Make the high-end upgrades really hard to get, but based on skill and not luck.

I’m not sure who enjoys having dozens of the same type of a weapon in a bag, but it’s not me.

Fix crafting and I would come back and play this game several times a week in stead once every few months when a new level is released.

less important

I allways hear that and i can understand it, but i dont need such things.
Sometimes i even think it’s distraacting me from having fun as is rather creates stress than to just play a game because the gameplay is fun.

Imho gaming has 2 different aproaches, the meritocratic and the just for fun aproach.
And dont get me wrong you can have both depending on game or even with the same game but this day this and the other day that.

It only becomes odd to me if people start talking about doing stuff they dont like, but for the numbers. You know the word grind itself express it.
Boring repetetive tasks that arent fun, but people feel the need to “achieve” something although they dont have fun and need to grind it.
Once done they feel good and as if they have accomplished something.
But to me this feels like the only thing they have achieved is to betray themself to start bragging with pixels.

It’s not that some games a carrot on a stick to play further isn’t helpfull or motivating, but if the gameplay is boring to me i wont play or achieve anything.
Repetetive is relative, every game is somehow repetetive, as long as it is fun, you rince repeat because of the fun and maybe to achieve something.
But if boring and a chore it’s rather unbearable…

I think this is where FS starts to profit from the gamers psychology.
The core gameplay to most is fun, the settings is atmospheric has many true fans and therefore they can just throw RNG based grind on them.
They play anyway, because fun core game. They hate the grind, but on the other hand this is the easiest method to make achievers never get to an end.
Its artificially prolonged achievements because RNGesus will probably never please you.
I would bet a box of beer, that it’s not even fair andtrue randomness, but that there are tweaks and modifiers for people playing a lot versus people playing less.
We all know gaming industry is full of psychological tricks to create retention.

RNG itself already is a psyhological trick.
Many would maybe stop playing if they had everything achieved in DT.
all weapons perfect 380ies with perfect T4 Blesings and Perks etc.

There are not many gamers who would play only for the fun of it.
And even if the grind would take 5000 hours, some people would have done it already and maybe quit or scream for “more content”.

We all know these “more content” screamers, the content often is just achieve some more numbers then, not new levels or new class or game modes etc.

well like said above you can do that, but RNG will maybe never please you.
But serious question, what would you do if yo once had all that you wanted.
Nothing to achieve anymore? play further or quit?

I think i know the answer, therefore Developers and Publishers make it have no end, never let you finish and complete it. Easiest way to do that = RNG.
Frustrating for achievers but from the Dev and Publishers PoV efficient and successfull.

i also quitted in February '23 because crafting was frustrating and the statement for the overhaul read like a corpo marketing or politicians manipulation :smiley:

I came back for new levels and i’m also again stuck with getting better gear and trying different builds etc.

I’m at 730 hours now, i had 500+ when i left, so in the last 5 weeks i played a lot again, but im unaployed atm and have lots of time.
This will change soon i guess and then i think i will take a break again or play much less.

VT2 had amazing f*cking achievements and it all felt good. Minus weaves and deeds nothing felt like a chore.

Play further most likely, but creating content for me is trivial in one way (and maybe hard in another). I never hit all the achievements in V2 and I did not always play towards them but I had fun pursuing the goals.

Yeah, it means different things to different people. Second Wind (the ex escapist crowd) had a podcast about it this week and Yahtzee pointed out, and I agree, that a grind can just be your standard gameplay loop. I don’t mind grind as long as I’m having fun. Some would argue that as soon as it is fun then it is no longer grind, so it depends on your definition. I don’t consider the missions in Darktide a chore because I really think that they have hit lightning in a bottle here. The missions themselves are amazing.

And this is why I no longer play Darktide regularly. I find the whole gear system to be pretty much as unfun as any system can possibly be. There is no redeeming quality here for me. I could put up with V2s system because it was possible to work around, but DT is just a slog. I don’t have fun, so I just don’t play. I lurk around these forums in the hope to promote a change in a direction that I would like, but I’m not holding up much hope on that. I’m just one person, and I never presume to speak for anyone but myself.

You may be right. I had this years ago in V2 for all weapons I cared about and I did not stop playing. But that’s just me and my small group of friends who met weekly to play :slight_smile: .

I really hope you find a job that you find fund and fulfilling, without grind and needless RNG.

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This post is so idiotic. I can’t believe how many whiners there are in this forum. You are all shameful. Just thought you guys needed some perspective…

The funniest part is? I’ve sunk ‘free money’ from a side gig into this game. It doesn’t affect my actual living budget but it does give Fatshark money, and if they’d only open the floodgates on cosmetics I’d probably have spent more.

this - some say grind and mean fun gameplayloop, others say grind and mean boring repetitive chore.
For me grind is the last, but i see it has evolved from what it meant to a new definition like “exploit”. In 4x exploit is part of gameplay, it’s min-max’ing if you want, but some exploit bugs and that’s a whole new level. Gets also mixed up very often.
I had my first computer in 1984 and palyed games, things have changed somehow and on the other side everything is like allways just on another level :smiley:

agree, but the i dont understand this

the gear system is not what makes the game, it’s not good i also dont like it how it is, but it’s “seconded” aka not that much important for me.

no worries, i’m good i just will do a retraining and get my money :wink:
I just have to find something worth and fulfilling. Thats maybe not easy to find, but i dont struggle with money.

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Yeah, to me it is important. Progressing and being able to try out different sets of gear is important to me. I like trying out different talents and load outs. The new talent tree is great, and much better than what they had in V2 with the three (later four) classes. So yeah, progressing and trying out gear is part of the fun to me. So much so that it leaves too much of a mark for me to keep playing when there are other games that are just good throughout.

So I guess that’s it. To me tinkering and crafting is an important part of the game that I want to partake in in order to enjoy it fully. At the moment I cannot be bothered. I don’t even sell off my trash because the system is so clunky to work with. I would if the rest was good, but it’s just terrible through and through. Whenever gear comes up in Darktide, I just switch to a game with mechanics that I don’t hate… or go for a walk… or play with my children… or work… or just do anything really.

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I love how one dude tried to hijack this thread and nobody gave a kark.

They don’t have any other points to argue apart from calling people names.

God I wish we could go back to games just having all the options available from the start. I actually even miss when a lot of games thought it was good for you to have to unlock all mods for weapons via grinding kills. I mean, that would actually work pretty well in a 'tide game, as long as they didn’t go too stupid with it (ie needing to get 3000 headshot kills on Ragers with the Slab Shield or something).

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