Wouldn’t it just be better if vanish was replaced with any other buff? Attack speed/power/whatever when killing with backstab. That way you’re still interacting with shade’s toolkit in the same manner, but you’re not abusing invis which we all know breaks the game (sometimes literally).
Honestly, I’d be down for a sudden increase to Attack Speed or Power. Not sure what people would think about 10-15% AS or Power for a few seconds(2-3) though.
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Honestly I don’t particularly care about vanish one way or the other, I haven’t been a shade main since before it was introduced, and in the 100-200ish hours I’ve played over the last few months, I’ve come across one shade that could consistently abuse it. But I did bring up the whole “It’s more broken in a literal sense than a performance sense” because of the “It only wants to work consistently if you’re the host” thing. Sure when it works its abusable, but you’re not going to find a significant amount of people that have the skill to abuse it. I see shades trying and failing to delete patrols a good deal more often than I see it working as it’s intended to. By a real large margin lol. Doesn’t seem to be a major issue considering it doesn’t work the majority of the time unless you have incredibly low latency or are hosting.
I do like this idea though, that seems to fix most of the concerns I’ve read, while still being reasonably strong. But Fatshark would have to do something about clients/latency alongside it for it to be a talent worth picking.
At no point was I arguing with the people about a 10% damage reduction that’s only going to affect a difficulty I don’t play. People just seemed to think I was and I’ve been having to reply to them ever since rofl. Again, just trying to stop people asking for further reaching nerfs purely to make their cata games more difficult.
As for ammo, even back before WoM dropped I didn’t really care that you could essentially have infinite ammo, the only really broken one was the old BH infinite ammo crossbow alt fire spam. That thing deleted hordes/specials in seconds with absolutely no downside. But even then, infinite ammo elves didn’t feel too bad, because they’d have to swap to their melee anyway really quickly, because the ones who didn’t ended up going down in seconds and waiting for us to come pick them up. I’ve never had a problem with the ammo availability.
The main issue I had with that was having to take up the slack of people with horde clearing weapons, not clearing hordes, and leaving me, the poor DD shade to try and frontline it while they shot random arrows somewhere into the middle of it uselessly. That said, I seem to remember there being an infinite ammo shade crossbow too that was pretty broken. Alright maybe there were some problem weapons lol. But as of now, the ammo economy feels fine to me too. You’re never gonna run out if you’re saving the ammo to delete specials anyway. At least, not by the time that you find more. It’s the people spam firing into hordes, even with the headshot trait that seem to be out of ammo constantly anyway.
I couldn’t tell you specifically what changed with glaive, but it was originally the “go to” weapon for elves, maybe they changed the way it interacts with super armour? maybe they gave it less cleave? Maybe they reduced the damage a whole bunch? I don’t think it’s any slower, but that’s hard to tell, it’s been a very long time since I’ve used it. Falchion was basically OG crowbill for saltz, if you weren’t using rapier, you were using that and demolishing hordes/armour by spamming left click. It was a very good weapon back in the day. But again you’re getting hung up on the specifics of random examples, I was just using them to show that at one time there were weapons that were very usable, that you never see now, because after balancing whether nerfed indirectly or not, they suck compared to the other options.
And you take that back about the coghammer, it’s a thing of beauty.
Coghammer go bonk.
I get the point of shields, I don’t get the point of running GK with one. If you need to be able to survive rough situations you can’t kite out of or avoid with positioning, any other kruber class would be a better pick.
I also think that generally speaking, mobility is much more important for survival in harder content than tankiness, within reason.
Yes and for those people who cannot abuse it, changing it to something more interesting be it in terms of new talent or limiting its power won’t really change the casual players gameplay.
But yeah its clear we disagree so I just leave it at this.
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I mean GK with a shield is fine
it’s all besides the point anyway, this thread has devolved into a pissing contest over modded, official, twitch etc. and bizzaro claims about some sort of silent majority that may or may not exist.
Before anyone calls me a sweaty dork or something though I would like to point out I’m advocating for like 80% buffs, 10% nerfs and then 10% tweaking/rebalancing for QoL or identity purposes. And before anyone simultaneously shouts “powercreep” at me I’m sorry but you probably don’t even understand what it means.
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Take books. It will promote proper team composition and cooperation because you’ll have (repeat mode) : 1 health item, less hp, 2 potions only. The goal is to bring all the books to the portal.
You talk about difficulty and there one in the game built into it, but you willingly ingore it.
It’s just makes sense, why would they take in the consideration balance wise what 10 people in modded realm do?
MR is good for experimentation, fun and some custom challenges for those who want it.
READ this please : I will give a leg and say that some things done in modded realm can be definitely implemented on live but I think changing current cata is not the most reasonable way to go about : READ BELOW
Myself and other people I know in this community suggested to be able to add deeds prefixes in random games : like you check a “More elites per wave, more waves, more specials and so on etc etc…”
I’m all in for that! I think this is where pretty much everyone can have some type of common ground. 
Most people don’t do that on cata, BW is fine, again it bother noboby but like 3 people. We already talked about this, my answer in the posts above.
Shade I already suggested a 1sec cooldown on vanish instead of 3 sec. That way it’s still accessible to do crazy fun stuff and you can chain when you’re good enough.
Also for tweaking BW, I don’t really know how to tweak it without messing everything up. Tone down famished flames? I wouldn’t.
Inca & I (among many others) had a similar idea is to make FS have a separate dot like flense/ poison weapon specific on the left click for that stacks up to 3-5 stacks. These dots would overwrite Famished Flames too. (Think Barrage type of stacking that needs refreshing but with weapon tied dot)
But charged attacks wont have any dots applied so only thp and CC.
Totally understandable, but this one of these you things. I can relate to this when I don’t have twitch on.
Utterly disagree here. Books enchances you gameplay by forcing a good composition and actual team play, you need to care for each other to bring all the books to end.
Also you can’t hit trade since you aint got that much health, thus forcing you to play more methodically (I know, I already said it like 10 times)
I will say this thow about curse resistance : People in my chat suggested to make it a default inbuilt in game, I’m all in for that.
This is one of the “I want more difficulty …but not like THAT difficulty” 
Changing normal cata isn’t a solution because it will mess stuff for people enjoy the normal cata.
I had a suggestion above similar to deeds how possibly remedy that and it’s duable.
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sweaty dork 
As we chatted early, many talents needs buffs.
Honestly most of it can be just number tweaks if you really think about it.
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I think my statements about how the difficulty in modded content is smarter (while still not ideal) than things like Twitch, Tomes & Grims and most deeds are stand correct. I think some elements from DWONS, with a few things tweaked like stagger resistance not being as high as Deathwish, could be implemented into base Cata to make the difficulty require smarter play. Can you tell me why I’m wrong?
This discussion is getting off-track. You entered this thread acting like extreme, obvious outliners were okay and came up with a weak nerf for Mist+Vanish Shade that would do nothing to fix how bad Vanish is without Cloak of Mists. I brought up the Unending Hunt 80% thing before because that’s the level of power we’re talking about.
Shade with Mists+Vanish is too powerful and the 45% cooldown is not fine. 4 seconds of crits already brings more to most situations than killing one target does. It would still be good without any CDR at all. Let’s compare it without CDR to Fervency:
- Mists: 60s cooldown, grants stealth for 5s and the ability to move through enemies, 4s of 100% crit chance after leaving stealth. High damage already without backstabs, backstabs enable insta kills with light attacks at the requirement of moving through and behind enemies while stealthed which is easy and guarantees at least 1 or 2 kills with 0 risk, with the potential of more kills at some risk.
- Fervency: 90s cooldown, aoe stagger, 6s of 100% melee crit chance. WHC can insta kill with crits if headshotting, bodyshot crit damage generally isn’t as high as Shade’s.
Unless you want Fervency buffed you must agree the 45% CDR is too much.
GK has poor build diversity, synergising with two weapons too much (and you agree that is the case with the Exec) and would benefit from changes that would broaden their benefits outside of single target dps. BW with Famished is too safe for the reward, or the reward is too high for the low risk. You’re idea for Firesword interests me. Would this make it better on the other careers as well? I’ve always been disappointed at how underwhelming it felt on both Pyro and UC.
I am reading your replies. You haven’t repeated yourself. We’ve been going into more detail have we not?
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That’s just a petty thing to say. The majority of players that play do not play on cataclysm, and also do not come to the forums.
Idk what’s difficult to understand about that.
I’ve tried to share a single viewpoint about not nerfing the rest of the difficulties for the sake of cata players, which is the very definition of a balance concern, and I’ve been dragged into all kinds of other tangents along the way instead of anyone seeming to understand the point.
No bloody wonder most of the players don’t come to the forums.
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the way you presented yourself initially was very much so in the vein of representing a silent majority rather than simply making a salient point that lower brackets shouldn’t suffer nerfing due to upper bracket feedback.
I don’t think you’re incorrect at all I’m just saying the thread has derailed into things outside the purview of character/weapon balance for the base game, or just become multiple fragmented tangents
yeah a lot of it is just a numbers game, some of it might require more overhauling (heal share as a talent for example is just always gonna be out of place when competing with thp)
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Anyways back on track → Coghammer is stupid, can I now get my Executioner swords attack speed back?
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yeah definitely weird that Coghammer is what we got for our next melee weapon after the exec nerf lol
also leaves pickaxe in an identity crisis
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Don’t forget that Mists applies to your ranged weapon but Fervency doesn’t.
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I believe that got changed very quickly on Cloak of Mist release, only affecting melee strikes.
Either way the point remains, Cloak of Mist is too strong even without Vanish.
100% melee critical strike chance for 4 seconds every 33/27 seconds.
More than likely less, sometimes even chaining it due to Shades 0.5 second cooldown per enemy hit + weapon choice.
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I don’t play elf, but I’m fairly certain it still affects longbow from what people I play with have said. I think they may have changed some interaction with volley xbow though, IIRC.
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It still crits for the first shot of any of Shade’s ranged weapons.
Volley still crits with it. This can be seen in the Shade run I linked earlier in this thread at 3:03 and at 6:00. Easy enough to test.
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Zealot
Holy Fortitude should incorporate the ability to turn regenerative green HP to THP. But only regeneration by other heroes. But gaining THP also stops THP depletion so in the end probably ignoring regeneration would be the way to go. Ignoring regeneration should be optional, that’s why it must be linked to a trait.
And it should block GK and elf abilities and not natural bond, because using NB is a choice made by the player while the rest aren’t.
Gaining 20 green HP when raised by HM is not an issue.
Healing potions and medkits could heal green HP. Because there are beginners who run Zealot on green HP.
Heal share is a good question. To be logical I think it should give green HP.
Castigate is another possibility but thematically it fits better to Holy Fortitude. The zealot trusts in Sigmar only and refuses foreign practices.
Unbending Purpose
+5% Power is nothing. It could be even 20%. But only in melee.
Faith’s Flurry
It could give 3% power per stack instead of 2%.
True, but I’m not at home. And also that would require getting on the elf which presents a moral dilemma.
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Yea, I can agree to that.
Why? Just why? Really. Why? Why make the two most chosen talents even MORE desirable. That is not how balancing functions. If anything the talent to convert regeneration effects to THP should be in competition to these. If FS wants a fast fix they should simply replace Smite for a talent which turns health regeneration in THP. So people have to chose between power and easier to manage stacks. That would be an actually interesting choice and not adding ice cream on top of the cake.
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