The next BBB - List of Balance Concerns: Shade, Gk, Bw, Ranged Classes and More - Feedback and Suggestions

Linesman alone does help, but the cleave numbers dont allow for wave deletion on the Bretsword with GK. It gets stuck on the after the third marauder no matter what. That and the not so great attack speed does not make it a good wave clear tool on GK.
Its also absolutely not a good fit with Bret Shield either.

If you run those two you lack any kind of elite deletion power and lack wave clear. All you get is… well, idk, Bretonnian style points?

If you run GK you do it to delete Elites and deal some monster damage, while doing fine with waves. There is only one loadout that can come close to what any other ordinary career with that job description can do, thats Mace&Sword plus Executioners.

That might be different on Legend, where stuff just dies, but cata a Longbow, or Crossbow will deal faster and safer with elites than a Bret Sword GK.

The “2 pushes to put them on the ground” is a whole other can of worms, since them staying on the ground and not teleporting into ready to attack position after getting staggered again, or looked at funny is as certain as Ranald giving you an emperors vault with all books on your party.

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I’ve played the grail knight exclusively with his gear since release, because rat-catching for me is all about having style. I’ve had zero issues in smashing Cataclysm with his apparel, so not really sure what you mean. Without a doubt the “meta” is more effective, but in my opinion his weapons are absolutely fine and cool.

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I didnt mean to talk crap about the weapons themself. Bret sword is great on every other Kruber. Bret Shield is okay if you just wanna bash things. But its not even close to being a good combination for GK and his line of work, especially if you bring them both at once.

Ofcourse you can run it, but if thats the point of a balance discussion, you might aswell change nothing at all.

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Yeah, but the shield is just wasting a slot to survive situations you shouldn’t be in anyway. More damage keeps you from getting in those positions to start with. There’s no reason to run that on him, if you need the extra control why be GK at all?

Why though? There’s no reason to run conflag, BW has top tier control without it. Flamesword plus double ult is more than enough, and you can bring a staff that actually does damage too.

Also, I don’t think it’s reasonable to say people need to crank difficulty up but then say you should ignore modded content. Some builds trivialize even c3 dwons they put out so much damage, there’s not a hell of a lot of room to crank up further than that, without making my PC cry.
Bringing books in base cata isn’t gonna provide a challenge, and twitch just becomes nothing but a DPS race after a point.

Certain builds are just clearly outliers, being able to get by with non-meta stuff in content that doesn’t really allow those outliers to shine doesn’t really say much, to me.

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Beam is relatively well balanced for the most part but the boss damage on famished beam is definitely too high, especially for how easy it is to use (literally point and click anywhere on the monster’s body)

Outside that particular interaction it’s all good tbh

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To be fair, he mentioned that he was mainly talking about release WOM. I’m sure after WOM was released, we all felt like we were nerfed in some way or another, due to introduction of stagger system making low stagger weapons hit like butter, and the improved tracking of attacks through player dodges. It took Fatshark some more tweaks to the dodge window for us to arrive at the game’s current state, which is overall an improvement compared to pre-WOM

Mate, I’m sharing a perspective, not typing out law.

I’m not here to make the point that weapons being gutted is/was bad, that’s not what I’m getting at. I’m mostly aiming to get people thinking about what they’re asking for. You’re focusing on the specifics of random half thought examples that other people have drawn out of me that were also not the main point of my posts.

There were people asking for vanish to be outright removed, there were people asking for a considerably worse ammo economy. At the same time, there were people worrying that their cataclysm games were being trivialised and some of the solutions weren’t only going to affect that difficulty (which is observably the smallest percentage of players) and yet the difficulty was the driving force behind the ideas. I’ve sort of smashed together responses because it’s tough to remember who wanted what, it’s a long thread. I’ve thrown out a couple of existing ways to cope with cata being too easy if you use this or that.

All I want is to get people asking for reasonable ideas that aren’t going to lower the enjoyment for people not on their level. Most here are. Those aren’t the ones I’ve been trying to address but I keep getting dragged into talking about them.

Glaive just used to be better, I wasn’t saying its a problem weapon, exe i was just highlighting feels bad to use, it’s the attack speed. I could comment on the state of every weapon that isn’t the meta if you want, I was just throwing those out as the first things that came to mind.

These random examples aren’t the points I’ve been trying to make.

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His original gear is great and shield an awesome help to everyone in the group.
If you want more attack speed take S&M but you’ll have to get Exe too with it by giving the shield, thus making you much more vulnerable.
Shield provides stagger for the group and interrupts elites.

Slash ult deletes all the elites by at the minimum 2 and helps with hordes if. Anything but CW are die pretty fast with overhead bret combos. If Chaos Warriors give you trouble use double stab ult.

You run GK to fill a role. If your teams lacks stagger, take a shield and a slash ult.
If you feel like you need more boss damage take double stab ult. If the group has plenty of stagger get S&M with Exe.

I don’t know how you manage to compare these 2 but I’ll try… Range have plenty of space and don’t have to worry (usually) about being stabbed and have plenty of time to aim headshots (usually)

Being in melee you have to worry about taking damage and make sure to give yourself space to use your 2h.
I usually do couple of pushes with shields to put everything on the ground and then either heavy slashes or overhead roations with Bret Sword.
It seems to escape a lot of people grasp that you’re not by yourself but as a team, you don’t bring shield only for yourself.

I don’t what are you talking about?

“Situations you shouldn’t be in?” What? We play with books and twitch on, you have 1 health a 2 potions and buttload less health. Stuff spawn will spawn at bad times and curses will ruin your day, you’ll be faced with “Situations you shouldn’t be in” very much often.
Shield will save your and your mates lives more than once.

There are plenty of reasons to run conflag, it all depends what you’re doing. Twitch & Vanguard is really good with Conflag for example. Convocation of decay is a pretty simple when you have conflag on your team.
And it’s fun to use!

If you want to talk balance : The spammable ability to delete CW with Execitioner Sword ok GK is the most broken thing in the entire game right now. It’s zero effort and you can click away at your desire. It’s clearly imbalanced and needs some looking into to.

That being said, there also str+bombs literally delete anything… and there a A LOT of potions in VT2… Waayyy to many imho.

I do it when I see something interesting.
I’m well aware that most people don’t do twitch, but at least I can see stuff from normal cata perspective.
No one cares what works the best in the modded realm because 99% don’t do it or care for it. Fun to watch thow.

I beg differ, very much so. It’s utter madness in normal games with normal settings and timings, but when you tweak the numbers it’s insane randomness. That’s why it never gets old, because it’s always random… Sigmar Bless Twitch mode.

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Situations you shouldn’t be in as in positioning, or just having enough damage to avoid them to start with. Plus, if you’re playing a class for clutch ability why play GK?

For the conflag point, I can’t imagine it beating out either beam or bolt in those modes, at least considering all the CC BW already has.

Sure, but you’re talking about ramped up twitch content, which is just as rare. Base content isn’t difficult enough that you really need to stress about meta, you can make mostly anything work there.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to say “my cata+ content is relevant, but yours is not because no-one plays it”. No-one plays most of this stuff, we can’t balance around what most play otherwise we’d be balancing around vet or champ.

I just don’t agree really, it’s pretty much always just “do you have the DPS to kill things before more things spawn”. If you don’t you just get bogged down and die with some unlucky rolls, with not a lot you can do about it.

I get why people like it, don’t get me wrong, but I think the difficulty there is very much DPS gated and wouldn’t really make sense to take into account for balancing, while modded content (outside some extremes) you are generally just ramping up the same sort of gameplay as normal difficulties have.

:thinking:

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Oh really? I guess I’ll have to repeat myself since you didn’t read my previous 3 posts.

[quote=“Fuplaayz, post:310, topic:43193”]
Shield provides stagger for the group and interrupts elites.
[/quote] Shield is a great too for one defense and helps litterally anyone in the group by providing stagger.
I don’t know where you see me mentioning fields as “clutch”. It’s a defense and CC tool, it will get you out of trouble a lot.

Since again you didn’t read my posts.
I will quote myself so you can see…

And that’s enough of most people.

Now we understand each and I acknowledged it the subjectivity of all replies in this post in my previous posts above.

Also you :

So tell me which one is it?
Bit conflicting there? Don’t balance around your X but my X because :

My potato your potato…
In case you conveniently missed my previous posts and replies : I’m well aware that cata twitch isn’t something people play but it’s much more played that modded realm… by a mile.
Event so I don’t base my balance on twich mode, I just was making a case for the SHIELD which is a great tool for cata.

Game isn’t balance around turbo sweat nerds like us neither, and I don’t expect them to, that would just silly.

And yes : Exec CW one tap is broken as hell.

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He’s talking about stronger stagger getting reset by weaker stagger.Usually you see this happen alot when FK charge into CWs,get them knocked on their ass,teammates apply a weaker stagger and they instantly stand back up

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I haven’t actually seen this in a very long time. Wasn’t it fixed quite a while ago? I remember back in the early days they used to beam up instantly when tickled.

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You’re about the FK charge. I saw it happen yesterday I think? My last stream for sure, but I only see this on FK and nobody else.

About GK, shields, and the role GK “should” play:

Sure, GK is an elite deleter / melee DPS mainly, but that doesn’t mean taking a shield does not add anything to him. If you take a shield as a backup, you’ll still be able to kill just fine, but it also gives you the ability to do stuff you otherwise couldn’t. Especially if your teammates are squishy and you get put under pressure, a shield can make a world of difference. Maybe you trade off some killing power by being less versatile in your other weapons, but it’s a tradeoff that also brings you something very good in return. And it’s a very positive thing that GK has some variety of viable builds in his playstyle.

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THING IS most changes from wom can be attributed to stagger mechanic and its interactions. Not weapon balance directly. Sure it changed things massively but again the whole dam game changed and not a single weapon nerf like 5-10 % damage that suddenly “destroyed” a playstyle.
The arguments floating around is that changing some weapons value by 5 % is suddenly going to change a playstyle so massively its not usable or something and then we have wom comparisons where enemy HP pool, stagger strength, talents etc shifted damage values and 1 shot ranges by good 20-60 %.

Yet vanish is currently game breaking on higher tier gameplay (Legend/cata). You can literally solo patrol enemies while perma stealthed. What is your solution? Just leave it as it is? Maybe I missed in in this chaos of a thread but I did not really see you take any stance.

Yes maybe because you don’t even have to play ranged career anymore in this game to have pretty much infinite ammo. Sure you can be against the suggested change(not like its going to ever happen anyway) but in my extremely biased opinion there is way too much ammo sustain in this game if you have any idea what you are doing. For example using some high penetrating weapon like crossbow to headshot multiple horde enemies is pretty easy way to just gain ammo.

And this is my issue. Glaive “used to be better”. Ok when? What changed, did talent change, was it WoM? I cannot even address your point other than saying, ok sure I guess? Same deal with falchion earlier which I have consider trash tier weapon from almost release of the game. I would understand if you just want underperformers to be buffed but you make it sound like these weapons have been extremely relevant or something at 1 point or a other.

On the Exe I can at least guess because attack speed was extremely recent change. Personally I was against touching the attack speed values but the weapon clearly needed a nerf of some degree. Too bad we got the abomination that was coghammer only few patches later …

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Cata difficulty is labelled as “EXTREMELY HARD” in full caps with red text in-game. Cata should be ‘sweaty’. Legend is already chill enough. Most of my suggestions and ideas, and most of the ones by others in this thread, wouldn’t make it so that players had to babysit each other on Cata, be super-coordinated etc. They would increase the need for headshots, reduce brainless hit trading (while still keeping it as an intelligent option), not make it impossible for a career like Shade to solo/clutch but require a more careful approach.

When I say team play, I mean stuff like covering each other when possible, looking behind to see if anyone is struggling/stuck on an enemy etc. In regular Cata this basic stuff isn’t necessary because players can just run ahead.

BW is high and frequent aoe bodyshot dps with a low precision requirement, good damage reduction, high thp generation and a low cooldown escape/dps ult that puts other movement ults to shame. Too much reward. Ergo a change or several changes are needed. Doesn’t necessarily have to be weaker. It could be outright nerfed, or made more difficult to play.
Shade with Cloak of Mists + Vanish is backstab (and the crits are still insane without backstabs) bodyshot dps with no precision requirement beyond walking behind an enemy.
These two, among other things like shotguns, trivalise content, with incredible uptime.

You don’t ‘need’ to play video games. Need is not relevant. Upping the skill ceilling in higher difficulties is objectively a good thing. It should be done carefully, so that we don’t end up with a game where players hold block all the time, or everyone needs to body hug each other 24/7.

I see this cop out a lot. Modded isn’t exclusive, anyone can play it. It even lets players bypass the grind to get reds or cosmetics if they want to. Most of the balance suggestions made here would only matter on modded difficulties. Twitch takes skill but it’s still rng and subject to luck/specific team comps. Modded is where team play is rewarded. DWONS isn’t rng.

Shade with Cloak of Mists is so overpowered that even on modded content it makes the player invincible.

DWONS is fun. It takes adjusting to, but once you play it regular Cata becomes boring.

There’s just not enough stuff to fight on regular Cata because entire hordes of tier 1 & 2 chaff can be deleted before they even get into melee range with even a halfway decent ranged horde dps. This is a fact. RV with a shotgun can do it.

Books just limit gameplay by taking up an item slot. There’s a reason that players rarely take them on Cata and modded. The only team play is IB/any tank taking a grim, which is so automatic and straightforward that it’s not interesting.

Grims mean a property and less health. This isn’t interesting as Cata enemies already do enough damage (personally I’d like about a 10-15% damage increase, depending on health breakpoints, but that’s a personal preference that most would dislike). All it does is make certain things risky in a way that doesn’t revolve around skill (a lot of damage taken is somewhat luck based and how well a player recovers without overpowered thp generation is a better showing of skill than how much they’re willing to hold block for extended periods of time).

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And to be honest that label is extremely accurate, but the question you have to ask is for whom? Not for you and me, but likely for most of the player base. An unfortunate side-effect of the lack of steam achievements in this game means that from our end it’s quite hard to even ballpark the level of commitment of the general population. Still, only 5.3% of the player base has completed the Skittergate on Legend and thus even has access to Cataclysm (assuming they own WoM). The short of it is that very few people play it and probably fewer still are at the point where it’s mostly a casual ride unless they severely gimp themselves. For most of the population it would be an utter brick wall, and I think it’s still quite challenging for the active players. I rarely find myself in lobbies where I can sit back and chill and let the game play itself. Naturally it’s a subjective and limited view, but in the grand scheme of things probably not entirely incorrect.

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Percentages are heavily skewed because there were like 10 times the players when the game initially launched and player count dropped drastically within a couple months, Steam includes all of those users in the percentage as far as I’m aware

Fatshark should release some more data about stuff like this, I can’t really see any harm to it - would be cool to see a bunch of stats about the game for the anniversary in March for example

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There’s that, and as far as I know, steam achievements are counted from free weekend players who mostly get the more common early game achievements.

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Simple. Make it so that you can only proc Vanish twice consecutively then have an internal cooldown of two seconds or so activate meaning you cannot proc Vanish for the next two seconds.

Being able to proc vanish only twice would still give the player 3 opportunities to strike from invis, if we include an ult. With this you can still clutch, do good damage and the talent remains competitive. I believe this to be the only option for Vanish as nothing else will work because there is no gameplay mechanic in V2 which can counteract invis.

Also, Vanish has become a massive issue due to Cloak of Mist and the guaranteed crits it offers. Whether Mist needs to be toned as well for this problem to be less glaring is not something I am too sure about yet.