I think it is just a “worrying”.
I’m an average legend player, I can’t tell you specific numbers or percentages of what will do what, I don’t have an encyclopaedic knowledge of difficulty breakpoints, but I’m not arguing against the posts that know what they’re talking about and know the specific percentages required not to affect anything below the cata levels. But I can tell you that when a weapon that used to kill a thing in one hit, starts taking two, it makes the player feel weaker. People don’t like that. You say that’s not how it will go, we all know how well devs in general listen to players, look at what happened with the WoM beta feedback. The chances of them even reading this thread are slim to none, but if they do, what they could potentially take away from it is “things feel too powerful, lets just nerf all of it”
Cataclysm would be considered the very hard mode here. Legend wouldn’t be considered there now, it’s a relativity thing. I’m not trying to say legend is casual (Even though that’s where most casuals end up to farm reds), I’m trying to make people aware that to the majority it’s already overly difficult at times. By average, I mean the people that haven’t and are unlikely to touch cataclysm. Which is most of them.
Sure, you can direct the majority of the players to simply play the easier, less rewarding difficulties, the logic does work both ways. But those aren’t the ones clamouring for change, it doesn’t make sense to alienate the vast majority hence my suggestion that the few that are asking for a more difficult game, can use the routes available that already exist for that, without needing developer intervention to achieve. My other suggestion, “not using the + damage to thing” would allow the breakpoints to drop WITHIN the official realm.
I know some of the people here are responsible for some of the achievements of the first BBB, I just wish that extended to the other half of the weapons that still just don’t feel very good. But as you say “we all may as well just have one weapon.” We aren’t too far from that already, there is not a huge variety in the weapons you see in the wild, I feel like it would be better for the game if the underperformers were brought up, instead of vice versa.
I’m not going to lie, I’m not an expert in the game at all. I still don’t win every legend game I play, I’m not capable of true soloing most of them even on that difficulty. All I’m trying to do here is get people to consider the needs of the many as opposed to the needs of the few. I don’t like the idea of devs skimming through the forums and seeing a bunch of people wanting nerfs, and getting the idea that it’s what the community as a whole wants and without paying much attention to the specifics oblige them.
The last time I remembered paying attention to people asking for nerfs, it seemed to be aimed at appeasing the god-mode streamers, and then we ended up with the original iteration of the stagger system rofl. Hence my fears.
What I wanted to do here is highlight the disparity between the people asking for things like vanish to be completely removed, because cata is too easy with it, and the silent majority, who throw axes into the back of the 7hp zealots head.
I wanted people to understand that some of the things they’re asking for, are already achievable, no changes required. That there are alternate routes to variety/difficulty.
As for
I feel like I’ve already touched on most of these points in the above, but I keep having to go do things in between typing out my response so I may be skipping over some.
But I want to point out that it’s not any and all nerfs I’m against. it’s The nerfs people are asking for that WILL affect the average player “i.e. The guy asking for the complete removal of vanish” purely because of their experience with said thing in Cata. A lot of the complaints I remember seeing about vanish (I don’t want to scroll through the thread again for specifics) were that being able to stay invisible was the problem, not the damage output.
Another guy was asking for the ranged headshot trait to only work on the 2nd headshot, that’s another one that affects everyone else. Pretty sure I saw one somewhere that wanted the removal of zealots “don’t die” trait as well.
I haven’t been wording most of my responses in the best way, my “Please don’t listen to the majority of” comment way above was a stupid thing to say, the “majority” in this case were supposed to be the kind of things I refer to above, but I’m kept somewhat busy and keep having to walk away from the computer so these aren’t going to be the all encompassing, most coherent paragraphs getting across the entirety of my thought process, because I keep having to come back to them and losing where I was.
But I’ve had my say, I just wanted to get the vague thought process across, and hope people would supply the missing links in my logic themselves rofl. By typing all these replies out hopefully if any devs do happen across the thread for ideas, maybe they’ll perk up and decide to pay particular attention as to not do sweeping changes negatively affecting the entire spectrum.
I’ll leave you all to your ideas. Just please, try not to ask for things that are going to poop from great heights on the people that don’t have Youtube channels full of true solo deathwish onslaught videos.
Now I’m going to press reply and hope I formatted the bloody thing right.
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People seem to put way too much weight on the discussion being held here. If fatshark would take 100 % of its feedback from here alone then the stagger system would of been nuked at its inception.
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+1, hope the devs don’t get the idea that these 5 or so sad cases speak for the majority of players even those who play cata+.
I’m all for adding more difficulty but nerfing the most widely enjoyed builds wouldn’t be a fun or well received way of doing so, I think most would rather have something like onslaught or mutator mod usable on official realm for when you’re with a good team.
BW got some pretty big nerfs already with flamesword charged 1 barely generating ultimate and the beam staff AoE not triggering barrage as well as it used to, same with shield GK. Probably all bugs but they’re part of the game now.
OP is very misinformed about GK in general, he has some of the highest non-meme build variety of any career thanks to his high power which is needed given his obvious weaknesses. Mace+sword and executioner have a high pick rate but after playing him a lot I wouldn’t say it’s his most powerful setup, just what the majority of GK players find fun and satisfying to use (and exe got nerfed for being fun once already). Reducing his power would actually lower build diversity by making exe more of a must-pick for cata since it reaches its important breakpoints easily while other weapons just barely manage to with 3 power stacks active.
The main thing I’d agree with is changing vanish to +20% dodge distance since it’s just pure cheese in its current state, that said I very rarely see it used to good effect in public games and organized teams often just decide against using it, all the more reason to change it I suppose. Cloak of mist would probably be fine if this change went through, maybe also make it so selecting it disables the backstab instakill perk, would still be very strong but not gamebreaking.
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The problem with lingering flames is actually pretty simple. The issue is that you can’t apply new instances of a burn to a target that has already been burned. Thus, you are never rewarded for attacking. You could say that it is endemic of the talent itself, however, if you allow multiple instances of the same burn, then lingering actually begins to add value while still rewarding the player for actively attacking.
I.e. the lingering burn applies constantly, but individual ticks can be added by further attacks. This is the way the talent should have always worked.
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It doesn’t work both ways though. All balance discussion should be target the quickplay pools from Recruit to Cataclysm as these are the public available modes within the official realm. So unless you are Recruit you can go down. If you are Cataclysm you can’t go up though. There is an issue with balance if Recruit is to hard, there is an issue with balance if Cataclysm is not challenging enough. Everything inbetween is player choice.
I will tell you a secret. There is no 90 % silent majority who oppose nerfs. Most players - mainly everything Champion and below - does not care for balance at all. If something gets stronger or weaker is of zero interest to them (as they don’t notice it anyway) and they never go to the forum and never read patch notes. They take weapons which look cool and that’s it. If Fatshark decides to change talents or traits - independent from the game becoming easier or harder - they just think “Cool, new options.”
This whole discussion here is one minority who wants to adjust some overperforming stuff versus another minority which opposes nerfs on a religious base.
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The 200-300 people that want more difficulty, already have the avenue, and the clear ability to make it more difficult for themselves. Why is it that you expect the other… 7700 people still playing to live with changes specifically for you guys? It most definitely does work both ways. If you want more difficulty, you can already give yourself it, you don’t need developer intervention for a problem that affects very few that you can solve yourself. Downshifting the majority of players to fit into how you want the game to be doesn’t scream reasonability to me. You’re not playing cata for loot, legend players tend to be trying to get that red that just wont drop. They lose out the most by shifting the difficulties.
I thought I was the one that was supposed to be having a knee-jerk reaction rofl. Calm your tits mate. I’ve spoken from first hand experience of seeing people leave the game after nerfs. Because the weapons they enjoyed using, were no longer enjoyable to use, you’re severely underselling anyone that plays above recruit and below cata. I’m not religiously against nerfs at all. I’ve got no problem with the idea of reducing damage on some things just enough to affect cata breakpoints. It’s the other more wide reaching nerfs that I have a problem with, when the reasoning behind the nerf is “But if i use it cata its easy now” don’t use it.
Feel free to re-read what I’ve been saying but maybe change the tone of voice you read it in.
Not here to take part in petty contrariness, I’m sharing a point of view that you don’t realise seems to exist, for a much larger part of the player base than you see represented in the forums.
I wouldn’t even be here myself, but I stumbled upon this after hearing about chaos wastes and wanted to see if there was any more information on it in the forums.
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Sorry if you’ve mentioned it before, but what weapons were these? For me, the only two that came out of the BBB noticeably less fun was the billhook due to a huge drop in power (deserved) and the xsword’s sluggishness (could do without this). Meanwhile, the other nerfs didn’t affect my enjoyment, e.g. -10% crit from snd/DD lights 1 and 2.
Talking about Chaos Wastes, I left the game for a while after the BBB was released due to a content drought, not really due to nerfs, and only just came back for Outcast Engi. You should check if your friends left the game due to content drought or nerfs, because I think leaving the game due to the nerfs are a bit of an over-reaction.
Is it? It’s not unusual to do challenge runs in other games, where players purposefully take suboptimal gear.
An Official DWONS mode could be quite interesting. I want to take quickplay randoms with no comms into it.
I disagree. There’s little to no synergy with most of Kruber’s weapon. Merc and FK have better synergy with most of them.
If it’s not hitting a useful breakpoint, extra single target damage is worse than attack speed. Even on Legend most of Kruber’s weapons aren’t hitting amazing breakpoints with GK, which gets worse on Cata. Merc gets 40% raw power that affects all targets he hits, while GK gets 30% power that affects all targets and 25% damage for the first target that he hits. That means less 10% stagger strength, 10% less horde damage and cleave power and 15% more single target damage for GK. On top of that, GK has less cleave innately, less attack speed and less crit chance.
You could argue that GK’s ult makes up for low single target damage weapons, but so does FK’s charge, as the Mainstay bonus from knocking enemies over + 2h Hammer + Have At Thee + Comrades in Arms gives FK the same breakpoints at 30% more attack speed, which means higher overall dps. Headshotting with the Exec is difficult when things are knocked over however, which is why the Exec shines (too brightly imo) on GK but not as much on FK.
Attack speed is more useful for weapons like the Greatsword, 1h Sword, 1h Mace, 2h Hammer etc. A lot of these weapons don’t hit notable breakpoints on GK that they don’t already hit on Merc or FK.
GK without the Exec + Mace and Sword combo is a worse Merc in most contexts. All of Kruber’s weapons work well on both Merc and FK. Can’t say the same for GK.
To sum it up, GK is very good with Exec + M&S but pays a high price for this. I’d rather GK’s capability with these two weapons was reined in (slightly less single target damage for the Exec synergy, Mace and Sword needs its own balance adjustments) in exchange for being better with other weapons. That could mean some attack speed, better mobility through dodging, better defense, stamina etc.
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I mean at that point like…why even nerf anything?
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Oh I wasn’t talking specifically BBB adjustments, half the people I played with left right around the time WoM released… I’ll let you do the math there lol. But for instance, things like Glaive/falchion didn’t feel like a chore to use, exe sword wasn’t like trying to punch in an underwater dream. Regardless, a lot of the weapons got hit hard when that update dropped, not inherently due to any nerfing, I don’t know if anything was actually nerfed when WoM dropped, excluding our general enjoyment of the game. But we all felt weaker, and about 10 people I knew quit within a few days of the new “balancing” WoM brought with it. Billhook wasn’t even in-game by the time the others left.
I know the feeling, I left for over a year, I only came back because I saw there was some new content to dive into, I’m personally loving grail knight and the engineer, I’m a little underwhelmed with engi’s ult, but the weapons it brought made me enjoy playing dwarf.
Coghammer go bonk.
Within the official realm, in the available and populated quickplay pools?
Player numbers should be somewhere between 50k - 100k. Nonetheless, I do not expect them to live with these changes because the majority will not even notice them because they are not having an influence on the difficulty play. And from those who notice it, majority will once again not care.
There is no downshifting of a majority because changes will mostly affect Cataclysm.
? Not sure what you are getting on here. I am calm. It was just an observation. You are trying to paint a majority which does not exist.
Birds of a Feather flock together. Naturally, the people you play with would hold comparable thoughts concerning balance.
But the problem is "If my team mate uses it … "
This is actually the only issue I have with your texts. You seem to think that you speak for some kind of silent majority. You do not. You speak for yourself, the same as me. Again. There is no much larger part of the player base that opposes general adjustments to reign in overperforming builds even if they would be affected by it (which they are not).
Which is a strange example. Because doing the math shows that the stagger system is a straight up buff to the players. WoM changes made the characters more powerful and yet they left. There is no math you can do which comes to another conclusion. The increase in potential dps outright overperforms the health increase the enemies received. I will tell you another secret. The reason people left is mostly because of bugs, bugs, bugs, bugs, some more bugs, a few bugs here and there, then some bugs over there as well and lastly some bugs.
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Yes she’s very well rounded. She burst down the first horde fast with beam & Kaboom but has downtime.
CC is great no one is arguing that.
4k hours? That’s like a lot! 
It’s not really important how easy she’s to play. I don’t understand what does it change in the bigger picture? The are not a lot of Beam Wizards out there from what I’ve seen just outperforming everyone.
… Flamethrower IB will melt literally all the hordes with ease and half asleep, grail deletes with one click, shade nukes with one stab and so on…
Conflag has the best CC in the game everyone knows that, specially with Volcanic force. 
Conflags has a downside of lacking single target dmg, but that’s where the mates come in.
I visit reddit and these forums almost daily.
This is one of you problem type of situations. Utterly subjective, hint for you and your mates :
If you’re “bored” : get books, add some twitch mode with curses and lower timings. You’ll have your hands full.
if you’re bored means you’re not challenging yourself enough
I agree that some classes like WHC requires more playtime. Billhook isn’t that hard neither, an insane weapon really.
If you are proactive enough you can run 4 glass canons and be fine. That point is purely subjective. I would avoid posting true solo yt videos as example in a coop game. I’m sure you can understand why it’s not a good example.
When you have a patrol, 4 flame rats, 2 blight stormers and a boss rolling in while you carry you will appreciate a shield greatly. You can literally push your way through anything with it, stagger the wholes hordes, pick up your mates in a middle of a mess too. … And it’s awesome! 
Vermintide 2 is a coop games where you have to care for your mates and as a frontliner make sure your range have space to do their work. Anyone can dodge round around the map with movetech but a shield is not only a great defense for yourself but also for your friends.
This seems to be a weapon balance issue and not a GK issue.
Merc/GK and FK has differents strengths/weaknesses and make some weapons work better than others. It’s almost like by design and on purpose. 
Bret Sword is absolutely an amazing weapon in general but really the best when used on GK.
It’s very versatile and it’s really up to the task for most situations.
It has a decent cleave, good single target damage, it’s relatively fast and is great all rounder.
I think, all vanish needs is to be 1 sec duration. You will still be able to spam it if you know how to time it and place yourself correctly. It’s a really fun feeling to chain spam backstabs but at least with 1 sec duration it wil be harder and require some measure of practice.
This way everyone “wins”
That being said, 99% of people in the game can chain Vanish as it is in “regular” cata. 
Not really good comparison with Animosity there. Vanish chain still requires some degree of little personal skill.
They are fun to play and don’t break the game.
All good man, we are all pationate people here! 
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Why would this make it best on GK though? GK doesn’t need versatility, he has two weapons.
Or just run flamesword/whatever and do great horde damage with insane control and no downtime at all, using your ults to ensure you don’t need to stop swinging. Like you say a shield is great above, but then are downplaying how strong sienna is when she’s got control on the same level while also doing super good damage.
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That’s not burst. Burst is WHC with Fervency, Huntsmen’s ult, BH etc. BW can almost get through an entire horde with Beam shotgun blasting just by venting and then making use of the massive thp generation from Firesword and thp on stagger. BW has significantly less downtime than any other ranged career while having some of the best thp gen and melee safety.
Yep it’s a lot. Those players are very knowledgeable. They know more than I do. How does GK delete a horde? The sweep ult doesn’t cleave that much. Flamethrower IB melting a horde again just simplifies gameplay.
Why Volcanic Force? Conflag already staggers multiple Cata CWs out of their overheads at full charge at 473 hero power. Beam is still fantastic overall horde cc. It’s kind of like Rapier push attack spam in the sense that the stagger isn’t strong, but it’s constant/very high uptime, except it has more reach/cleave and aggregate damage.
So do I.
So is everything. These subjective arguments are very tiring. We’re arguing for outliners to be reined in. I myself also argue for things that oversimplify the game to an extent that other players literally don’t have to dodge when fighting hordes should be changed.
Billhook doesn’t get the credit it deserves. It’s a high skill weapon like all of the polearms. High headshot damage, good qq/animation cancel complexity and benefits, bodyshot crit damage doesn’t one shot most elites like Rapier and Dual Daggers do, the light/heavy stab is harder to headshot with than most are willing to admit, it requires stamina management for horde dps and the attacks have commitment/don’t block cancel for as many frames as weapons like the Rapier/DD. It’s only insane because of Flense, a clearly broken talent that also needs nerfing.
The hook is the least important part of the weapon. It’s useful for sure, but as it stands stagger locking a CW pat is comically inefficient. Just bringing the hook up before someone says that it makes it op.
I mean if one person can handle it surely 4 can. I fail to see how it’s not a good example. It’s nearly the exact same setup used by GKs in teams in modded content. The stagger from a shield is nice, but GK can already stagger singular elites with Mace and Sword lights, not that they need to. Not anyone can dodge around a map with move tech. Shields don’t do the dodge part. They only have move tech.
When I have that much on me I just hit trade as GK.
The weapons work on both FK and Merc. It’s not a weapon balance issue. I explained in detail how high, single target damage boosts don’t synergise with most of Kruber’s weapons. Power does to some extent, and attack speed does even more. Exec can’t be nerfed further, yet unless another weapon has higher single target dps it’s pointless to bring anything else on GK because GK only does one thing better than others - single target dps.
Bret Sword is a great weapon, especially on Merc and FK, but GK can take two weapons, so it makes little sense to take a versatile weapon instead of two specialist weapons. Exec for single target dps, Mace and Sword for kiting/horde dps.
Can’t say if I’m a fan of this idea. I’d have to play with these changes in a beta to see how they felt. I’d like Vanish itself to become useful without Cloak of Mists.
Ehhh. You walk behind a dude and attack. That’s it. Just using Animosity doesn’t take skill but making use of the stagger and crit chance buff by landing headshots does.
I know many people that say Flaming Flail is boring, and at best relaxing. It’s just heavy 1 > heavy 2 or heavy 1 > block cancel 24 with that weapon. Merc is fun but most here would agree that Merc shouldn’t be getting the amount of ult return when getting hit as FK does (they both get 0.5s per damage taken). You said it yourself - Bardin sleeps through hordes with a flamethrower. Sleeps.
Something that is that easy shouldn’t get as much reward as the more difficult things in this game. That’s like if the Axe and Falchion had higher single target dps than the Rapier.
I’m glad we’re having a civil discussion. Thank you.
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You do when you have a have a shield. 
And that shield is pretty good.
For conflag : Try Volcanic and Rechanel. 
Beam staff syncs too well with Famished Flames and FS Swords but it’s not like it’s game breaking.
All other staffs have obvious weaknesses.
By itself it’s a FS is a CC weapon but has a weak single target dmg in return. I guess the idea was to make it a “tank” weapon"? You can try to nerf the CC of the flamesword but it will make it even more useless on other specs and careers. Flame Sword becomes the “issue” it seems when Famished Flames are involved. So nerf dot talent? I wouldn’t personally, it’s a fun spec.
I find Bret Shield more reliable but since they are different classes, it’s really pointless.
That’s a great rotation, it’s really fun. Makes you switch between Range and Melee, that’s great.
I still can’t get over 4K hours, that’s like crazy! 
2 pushes with a Shield you put them on ground.
Bret sword lc+ lc, cancel, repeat. It has linesman on everything.
Not everything needs to be complex or sweaty in vermintide. Flamethrower is very relaxing and satisfying to use 
I’ll say it again, every class syncs with some weapons the best. If can just stand there sleeping, clearly need to crank things up.
4 glass canons can’t carry books and do twitch with decent timings because they’ll be squashed.
You can’t just “trade blows” when you’re missing a chunk of your hp already, have only 2 potions and one healing item. You need a proper setup for these if you want to spice things up.
Me and my friends take books, all the time since the launch. It promotes teamplay
I don’t care for modded contest, it’s just that modded contest and is irrelevant to a global discussion.
You usually take Bret Sword with Bret Shield, they sync very well together.
I really enjoy flail personally and you don’t have to spam heavy 1 all the time.
It’s a little high but not game breaking.
People like what they like, let them have their fun.
I answered this before not everything has to be ubber complex with insane learning curve, it’s a hack and slash.
I have 2 german Ironbreakers who only play flamethrower and they love it.
I sense that overall we play the game differently and that’s okey, makes balancing difficult
I’m tired, I’ll reply tomorrow
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I lieek this 
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Since we’re kinda on the subject - zealot could also get stacks from total damage he took without dying or healing. Could fix the regen issue.
But actually I really wonder why he is not allowed to damage himself.
Can you stop stating subjective things as facts. I could as much make an argument out of how easy the game has become and due to that all of the friends I played with have stopped … (only half true)
This is such a simple observational bias as Adelion stated.
If you have some examples of weapons that got gutted in some balance patch and feel like they did not deserve it then fine bring it up but playing on some observed majority is not going to win you anything here.
The only thing I have seen you mention in this entire 300 post thread is that glaive/falch and exe feel weak? Exe was the strongest weapon by far until only recently, falch has arguably been trash tier since axe/falch introduction and I really don’t understand the problem with glaive.
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I’m just gonna chip in, I think it’s a lot of give and take.
At the end of the day it’s about fun, fluid and feel good gameplay.
However, certain aspects of the game need bringing down while others could do with being bought up.
Me personally, I want more fun things to play with, I want more choice and options but I want it in such a way it remains balanced.
Like you said, it’s a cooperative game; a cloak of mist Shade dropping all aggro onto you and single-handedly dunk on an skaven patrol does not feel fun or balanced.
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