Plenty of people use his defensive talents, if anything they’re some of his strongest talents.
I have ideas for Zealot, just ironing them out. Really want to keep the pain is power flagellant identity.
I can see the use of Calloused without and Within but Armour of Faith is in direct contest to Holy Fortitude. I would be surprised if it is chosen much.
Well, anyway. Make a thread and we can look at it. I’ll take anything which makes him actual fun and interesting to play and which goes away from the no risk, no management playstyle.
How about every melee headshots increase melee power (so full melee power, not headshot damage bonus) by 10%, up to 6 stacks, but every missed melee attack and melee attack that doesn’t headshot at least one enemy in its swing reduces the stacks by one? So extreme damage potential for good players, but very lacklustre otherwise. The values are just example ones, it’s the base idea I’m trying to present.
Sigmar smashes skulls in the lore so there’s no reason Zealot shouldn’t follow in his footsteps. I can completely understand why a lot of people wouldn’t like this idea though, just throwing it out there.
well if we’re gonna shift into Zealot talk maybe we could make stacks based on healing done
that way the only requirement is you’ve gotta be hit trading in some capacity, stacks lasting X amount of seconds, amount of healing needed to get a stack I’m unsure on (maybe just the same amount it takes to get a stack currently from lost health?)
Pretty simple fix and maintains his current gameplay without causing regen effects to be a problem and also without being able to just play in complete safety.
As a elf and shade main, i totally agree with you. That build is overperforming. As is sadly the entire carrier. Esp. when you get 90% cooldown reduction upon taking hit. Best solo class out there. Pains me to say it, but this game is about coop right?
1 Like
indeed it is
I’m ok with shade being strong but that one build in particular trivializes content far too much
45% Ult CD is fine but Vanish might be dropped to 1cd agree, this will solve most of the " perceived issues."
The goal is to have fun, more ults = more fun for 95% of playerbase.
Besides, most shades wont be able to chain the vanish death squad anyway even now…
Agree, it’s a bland talent.
1 sec cd should be viable enough.
I think you’re creating problem where there is none. Yes, he’s a melee powerhouse but so are Zealot, Slayer and Unchained.
But here’s why GK is just fine as he is :
Slayer, Zealot and Unchained all have high dmg reductions, high dmg bonuses and attack speed. They all have range options and mobility options.
In comparison to them GK doesn’t have : Range, Consistant Damage Reduction and ATTACK SPEED.
His exec sword swings are slow compare to Mercs and he doesn’t have bonus passive cleave or crit neither. And if you take M&S you’re basically a not a front liner anymore and it makes you even more vulnerable and reliable on your mates. Trade offs and such, make sense.
You’re basically nerfing everything that makes him viable and FUN.… Again he trades high dmg for no range, average cleave, average mobility
If he was op, it would show in the scoreboards… Except it doesnt du to all his weaknesses, he’s on par with everything else really and often bellow even.
GK is FUN as he is.
Agree 100%. On average a decent group on cata will kill around 2000 units, thuse droping 10 potions. 300 is a good suggestion!
Again, his dmg is his strength, 40 sec is just perfect. No need to change anything.
LVL 25 Talents are very good imho, they allow for different gameplay styles.
Virtue of the Impetious Knight : I would replace the 35% move speed with 15% attack speed for 5 seconds. It will make it viable and in line with other ult talents.
You’re basically talking about Beam Wizard, I honestly don’t know how to fix this combo. Because if you nerf one element of that build, it will affects other staff builds much more directly and negatevilly.
Beam Wizard CC is REALLY good but only in good hands.
Other staff builds have their obvious weaknesses.
BW is actually in a very nice place right now. She allows for the VARIETY staff play styles and that’s is GREAT! I think Battle wizard is the most diverse class in the game right now.
I 100% agree that her Soot Shield needs to be tone down a bit… I say 5% per stack instead of 10?
I would mess with the 30% CD ult because I find it not as useful as the other 2…
Beam Wiz dmg as ironic as it will appear is… on par with everyone else.
Side note : How to make pyro good - Her talents are actually all fun and offer diverse play styles. If I would add to make her more on par with others is : Give her melee and range attacks stacking fire dots… since you know…she’s a PYROmancer.
I really need to sleep now.
But overall : Saltzpyre - Zealot is fine, makes every melee work, offers 2 major playstyles. DMG reduction or thp builds. Forces you juggle between talents depending on the weapon and team ) GOOD!
WHC is also fine, flense is great but he needs it for sustain dmg. If it was op it would show in the scoreboards, it doesnt, he’s actually the one who deals the least dmg of 3 victors… Compensated with Insta kills.
Most of his talents are pretty good except these imho : Templars Knowledge and Maybe I shall judge you all!
Range classes are fine for the most part, let people shoot their arrow, bolts and bullets in peace thank you very much. Creating issues where there are none, again.
Single shot range doesn’t cleave or barely. I personally love playing range chars and stay in the background spamming shots, that’s what range supposed to do.
Cog and Masterwork need slight nerfs : Well duh! 
I want to go in detail on more stuff here but I need sleep.
Boost push attack dmg slightly and it’s all good.
Sienna : Outside Flail and Firesword the rest of her weapons are either meh or awkward to use.
Shotgun should give armor pen when upclose = IT’S A SHOTGUN, not a lot thow.
Repeater Pistol on Saltz should do waaaay more dmg per left click shot and sync better with scavenger.
1H elf sword need simply either headshot or overall dmg boost. My money on headshot dmg boost.
Dual swords can use an charged overheads like daggers do.
I want to in detail on each Class and how it could be “balanced” from my perspective. But that’s perspective 
My conclusion to all of this overall : Don’t fix what ain’t broken. However we all agree that some talent and weapons need a slight tweaking.
Most people don’t sweat in Cata/twitch/Twins/dwons like we do…
2 Likes
dunno about either of these, beam with famished has pretty bonkers dps as well as being really easy to play.
Oh also heard you had some complaints about new hally being awkward compared to old hally so just wanna let you know that Halberd’s old combos of the pushattack and the L1-blockcancel still exist completely unchanged so you don’t have to use the new combos at all if you don’t want to. Part of how I designed it :^)
5 Likes
Good point regarding the different experiences and goals other players may have, be that with legend, cata, full books, twitch, modded, various builds, playstyles etc.
Just picking Grail Knight as an example here, it is perfectly understandable that Gk does feel rather squishy when playing with full books, as it puts Gk at only 60% max hp. At least compread to proper tank classes that have more safety with such a diminished hp pool due to damage reduction.
However, when playing with no books, Gk can survive a lot more hits (e.g. he can actually eat an overhead and be fine) and thus play considerably more aggressively.
There, he is not nearly as squishy but actually quite sturdy due to his 180 hp and strong tmp hp generation (he casually eats any and all elites for breakfast, lunch and dinner).
Nevertheless, I’d be cautious of using anecdotal evidence such as a strict focus on scoreboards for measuring performance precisely because playstyles and experiences differ.
For instance, a Gk with bretonnian sword&shield and bretonnian longsword will not perform as well in terms of green circles as the meta mace&sword/exe combo.
What to do about this? Reduce the gap in performance between “too good” and “the rest.”
Rolling back the not mod related buffs to mace&sword might help a lot already.
Still, changes like replacing some of Gk’s extraordinarily high damage output with some more defensive options aim to lessen the gap between overperforming builds and the other options.
The goal is to have a more balanced end result that is less frontloaded into 1 aspect without diluting the identity of the class.
As you said, the classes need to be fun, that’s why we all play the game after all.
It is also important that balance is fun for all 4 players and not just the ones playing builds that are more on the side of overperforming/overshadowing the others.
Risk vs. rewad is also a topic that has been brought up several times in this thread.
It is not so much a case of overperforming compared to what other classes/builds can do, but balancing with the risk vs. reward of that single class in mind - if a build is very easy to play, is it justified that it is also one of the best builds in the game?
Naturally, the answer is highly subjective.
Various cases include but are not limited to:
- Should ranged classes be enabled to never have to go into melee if they can avoid it and just stay back and shoot? Or is that too easy and too little risk for such a high reward? (I tend to agree with solutions that have been suggested here, such as making their ammo sustain slightly more focused on melee.)
- Should Zealot be allowed to be all reward and no risk? (Multiple responses suggest making him more centered around interaction with his stacks and less passive in playstyle.)
Bw is most certainly another main example of this as is can be seen here.
I would like to reaffirm that the intention is not to “ruin” any class or build.
Reining in the overperforming talents and builds should ideally result in a less extreme difference between options and contribute to a more meaningful risk vs. reward balance.
Should the suggested changes lead to a situation where a class only has access to “bad” and “worse” talents and builds, then buffing them is absolutely in order.
Still, taking care of the tip of pyramid with the strongest/arguably overperforming builds seems a more pressing matter in my opinion as buffing too many things first may lead to a powercreep situation.
In the end, it’s about improving the game we like and we all have varying opinions on how best to achieve that; discussing that is what the forum is for 
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It has a great burst for sure but overall sustained damage in the match is really in line with every other dps class.
I’ve probably have hundreds of games as/with Beam Wizard and her total damage is always with in 10% +/- of everyone else.
Yes, I’m aware that scoreboard has nuance to it, but as far as overall performance we don’t really have a better way to measure it. I’m sure FS has numbers and statistics somewhere… I would love to see them.
Beam, Famished and Firesword is a great all rounder but doesn’t excel at anything to a point where people complain about it
No one goes : “On no! Beam Wizard is killing everything and we have nothing to kill because she’s killing everything all the time…” her being in the group or not doesn’t affect much, she doesn’t stand out as far as overall damage, I know you understand what I mean.
Her CC is great thow, I give you that!
And as far as it’s easy to do damage, let’s face it. : to us everything is easy with these hours. 
I don’t think she’s as powerful as people claim her to be. It’s another case of : This one does better than others, let’s mess with it. Not targeting anyone btw, just giving my million hours cent.
Don’t fix what ain’t broken.
I don’t really have any other number measurements that directly reflects the char performance dmg vise on a grander scale. Again, maybe fatshark has.
You usually get to live longer and die less when you have a shield.
Nothing, because he ain’t broken.
And in your own words :
He’s heavy dps frontliner that has superhuman unnatural strength, his role in VT is to destroy in melee, he is as straight fowards as he supposed to be… No really he does exactly what he supposed to.
His damage is offset by : No range weapon, no real mobility and for some reason no passive dmg reduction? (He wears armor for Lady’s sake)
And if you want more defense : Get a shield.
No one ever not goes to melee, it just doesn’t happen, you will get overwhelmed at some point.
I know what you mean thow
If I want to sit back and shoot arrows, why not? It bothers NOBODY and everyone wins : I get to realize my Legolas fantasies, my team gets special killer and arrows in their backs.
It’s a high fantasy setting where you can play as an range class. Not everything needs to be “melee or bust”
Waystalker, Bounty Hunter and Hunstman their sole job is to stay in the back and shoot specials, with occasional melee. These three have “melee” mechanics in their talents for those who want to do melee.
Scournger from V1 would be great, I’m all for it. I wonder why Earthing Rune didn’t make it into the V2 for Sienna.
That Pyramid is your Pyramid, no one complains about the classes being overpowered in the game atm.
All I hear about GK as an example : “He’s fun” because he is.
Sidenote : Merc can literally carry a team by just being there and shouting or Sienna by spamming her flail, or Bardin who utterly sleeps through hordes with a flamethrower… and so on.
There are more to classes than their damage.
What echoes in my channel are mostly under performing weapons, and there are plenty.
Elf 2h Sword needs an “overhead” instead of a poke. Kind of like GK with Bret sword charged attacks?
Elf 1h Sword needs a headshot dmg boost
Elf 1h Axe needs some range
Falchion : I would reduce the time it tames to charge the heavy.
Repeater Pistol : Damage per bullet on the left click needs to be up. Also Scrounger needs to give this gun more ammo per proc.
2h Sword : More damage on push stabs, slightly. But I wouldn’t mind if it stays the same, on Zealot you will top the charts with it.
Shotguns : Give armor penetration when shotting point blank, I’ll repeat myself and say : It’s a shotgun! Upclose, your armor doesn’t matter 
3 Likes
The thing is BW is providing insane levels of control at the same time as dealing comparable damage to a proper dps career while being far safer and easier. Beam and Famished excels vs bosses and hordes, deals with armour well enough and deals with mixed hordes very easily. What’s burst about it? The only thing that can be burst is Kaboom, and most use Burnout, or Bolt staff. All of Sienna’s other staffs are about sustained dps.
Hundreds?
We have thousands. Almost every player I know that’s over 4k hours will say that BW Famished + Firesword is too easy for the output it gives. It should either be riskier or a little less rewarding. BW’s CC is among the best if not flatout the best sustained cc in the game. The only comparable things FK, who still has less uptime/area of effect unless FK commits to cc, which means bad dps, and UC with staff spam and Flaming Flail (and UC 's power affecting stagger fully+Bomb Balm & Abandon safety is problematic right now).
They do though. There’s numerous Reddit posts complaining about aoe/flamethrowers stealing thp from the team. It’s boring to play with because it reduces the complexity of the game at a high frequency. With an IB flamethrower I and the rest of the team literally just have to kill elites, specials and bosses. Boring. Don’t even have to deal with mixed threats at that point, which is the entire purpose of Cata.
No. I can say that BW with Famished, Beam and Firesword is significanlty easier than WHC with Billhook and Crossbow while having comparable dps.
I and many other players are proactive enough with our dps to the point that shield brings little. In fact, it will often get the player killed because of low horde dps/mobility. I’m speaking as someone that true solo’d Warcamp as GK which can be seen here https://youtu.be/dQUnnGZT79U. If GK can get by without a shield on their own, they definitely don’t need or want one when in a team of four.
GK’s superhuman strength scales very poorly with most of Kruber’s arsenel. Mace and Sword works because it’s a duel wield (synergy with 25% more dmg on first target hit) and because it makes up for low horde dps. Exec works because of alpha strike damage.
1h Sword, 1h Mace and Greatsword are all mediocre at best on GK. 2h Hammer is okay, while the Bret Longsword is pointless on GK because it doesn’t specialise into anything. These weapons perform poorly/no better than they do on Merc/FK on GK because they don’t have those synergies/very high base damage, leading to very inefficient and dangerous horde clear vs both mixed and naked hordes. FK gets more out of the Greatsword than GK because instead of trying to make it do something it’s bad at (single target damage, and it’s still bad at that on GK) FK makes it really damn good at clearing hordes by making it fast. 55% more of nearly nothing is still irrelevant, and that’s what GK does to lots of Kruber’s weapons.
This is why GK would benefit from being made more diverse.
You’re in the thread where people are saying that Shade with Cloak of Mists + Vanish is too strong. Vanish is overkill on regular Cata because there’s barely any enemies there. It’s only useless when it’s not needed (so when you’re already wining).
Would you be okay with Unending Hunt be reverted so that it gave 80% CDR on hitting 20 enemies with Animosity?
These are all bad things too.
Being an overhead usually means easier to aim at most enemies, but worse angles for CWs. The players that use it like how the stab looks. We really don’t need any more clumsy overheads in V2, let alone for the elf.
It has lower headshot damage than SnD, Dual Swords and Dual Daggers because it would be superior to all three if it didn’t. Its only weaknesses are raw horde dps and slightly low reach. Its heavies hit like a 2h Hammer.
Falchion isn’t underperforming much. Its horde dps is higher than both the Rapier’s and the AnF. Very good for kiting, chip damage, decent bodyshot damage, heavies have a very good angle for CWs. Push attack could use a speed boost, but it’s otherwise fine specifically because it’s easier to use in most contexts (AnF is easier on Zealot, but on WHC Falchion is easier than AnF because of the cleave difference). It deals with shields and mixed hordes pretty easily so it can only be made so good before it’s superior to other options because of it requiring less micro, letting a player focus on the macro elements of a match.
Shotguns aren’t underperforming. The armour does matter in the lore. Really don’t need any more things that make superarmour irrelevant right now.
Kruber/Saltz 2h Sword could use more headshot damage on the push attack vs superarmour. Otherwise fine. I have no opinion on the elf axe, that’s one weapon I haven’t used in high intensity contexts.
I’m probably coming across as dismissive but eh. Pretty jaded with these forums at this point. Sorry.
6 Likes
Please don’t listen to the majority of the suggestions here devs.
The ones thinking one shot breakpoints are an issue for cata already have the means to resolve this themselves in-game, by not rolling +damage to whatever on their gear, or by using weapons that don’t hit the one shot breakpoints.
The ones that are trivialising content with shades vanish talent, can simply not use the talent. Idk how they’re managing considering how often it straight doesn’t work but hey, glad it’s working out for someone.
For the rest of the players, suddenly feeling weaker is not a pleasant experience. We don’t need nerfs to appease the top 10% of players. Affecting 90% of us with unwanted “balancing” is not a good thing.
You don’t have to use anything you consider an OP build, and I very much doubt you have to worry about quickplay randoms using them considering I see maybe 3 public cata games in the lobby browser whenever I have a look. Just tell your pre-made that you want them to feel as weak as a kitten for maximum fun.
If anything, buff the underperforming combos. Coghammer is great fun to use, most I’ve talked to agree on this. It feels good and gets the job done. Whereas most of Siennas melee weapons feel terrible excluding the obvious, the reason you hardly ever see an elf with a 1h sword/2h sword/axe is because the weapons feel bad and don’t perform very well. You can create more variety by bringing the shitty weapons up to par with the weapons that people actually enjoy using.
“Oh but power creep”
It’s not a problem if things are brought up to par with the weapons we already see constantly, which we see constantly because they don’t suck.
6 Likes
I can’t speak for everyone, but for myself, I’ve argued for more breakpoints in the past, higher skill ceiling stuff, buffing unsued weapon combos etc. I’m against things that flatout ignore aspects of the game like Shade Cloak of Mists + Vanish. MWP RV crosses this line too.
When does it not work? https://youtu.be/w2PB3t_NWhs. The ult is up so often Shade can justify using it on groups of 3 Clanrats.
This argument seems to boil down to “Just don’t use it if you’re good, let the bad players have it. Besides, no one plays Cata ergo balance doesn’t matter there.” I’ve played with players that have less than 300 hours, and done Cata 3 Onslaught Deathwish maps with them. They probably started playing Cata at 200 hours. Players learn fast and get good quickly when thrown into high intensity, not when they rely on crutches. A lot of the culture in the community that formed pre-WoM led to players getting very used to running routine Legend full book runs and that culture hasn’t left because of how ingrained it became. Players stagnated because Fatshark’s game stagnated.
I don’t enjoy saying this, but balance doesn’t really matter on Legend unless a player ends up as the last one standing. This is because of the spacing of special spawns, elites not spawning with hordes (ambients can be pulled from ahead, but hordes don’t spawn fresh one on Legend unlike Cata) and because of naked hordes with no shields full of tier 1 (Skavenslaves, Ungors and Fanatics) chaff infantry. Several of the suggestions made here, like making GK more diverse, would be hardly felt there, but would make things better on Cata.
Let’s take a good example of a fun, dynamic, versatile and high skill ceiling weapon that doesn’t suck.
The Rapier - high headshot/crit damage, low bodyshot damage, fast, fluid, low stagger outside of the pistol shot which is limited by its cooldown and low cleave. Decent reach, but not quite enough to have great synergy with high stagger teams (some lower reach weapons still have better synergy because of higher raw bodyshot damage).
The Rapier has problems but it’s pretty fun. It’s got a gimmick (headshots) that makes it different from other weapons while still being incredibly powerful. That’s with Deathknell on top. Throw Flense onto it and what happens?
The headshot gimmick is gone. Doesn’t matter anymore. It’s no longer quite as skillful.
There’s no way Shade with Cloak of Mists + Vanish can be made skillful as stealth simply ignores gameplay mechanics like enemy aggro, unless things like headshot backstabs are thrown into the mix. Nerf or adjust, it needs changes because (guess I’m going out on a limb here, but surely) it’s boring. Boring to play with, boring to play as.
Do you think this would be more fun if I did it as Shade with Cloak of Mists+Vanish? I don’t.
https://youtu.be/KalJHBJSwcU.
There has to be danger for the game to be fun.
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Then why do you even care if the talent receives say 1-2 second internal cooldown then? Its also pretty comical to say it does not work and see nearly 99 % of the shades running the said build.
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You ever play CoM+Vanish when you’re not doing a true solo? As host it works like a charm. But if you have higher than 70-80ish ping, and you’re not hosting, you’re gonna find yourself completely visible to everything you assumed you were going to be ignored by.
I’m not going to disagree with the CoM cooldown being extremely low, I seem to be able to spam that at will, but considering I mainly run dual daggers (it’s those spicy overheads) it makes all the difference when I’m the last man standing and have to find a way to get out of the corner that I’ve been herded into by the horde that was spread into every potential escape route courtesy of the headless chickens that were my quickplay team mates.
I’m sure to you balance doesn’t matter on legend at all, you seem to regularly do true solo cataclysm runs and play deathwish. That puts you in the upper tier of players, I have a feeling I could give you the torch from blightreaper and you’d still solo your way to the end of most levels. For the rest of us, a reasonably strong weapon makes a considerable difference.
I’m not trying to imply vanish is skillful in any way, but it isn’t the problem a lot of the comments here are making it out to be. It simply isn’t performing the way it is for you for a large portion of the community. (Run a few legend quickplays and see how often the shade is the weak link, going down constantly and eating all the health pots. There are not a lot of good shade players out there.) The only people this is causing issues for are the ones at the higher levels of skill who can resolve their complaints by simply not picking the talent.
Now, if you look at the steam charts for Vermintide 2 players, this week the peak was nearly 11,000 a day over the past month, lets compare that to the forum activity, the most popular thread I’m seeing is the one about Convocation of decay being OP on legend, that was made in July. It has a poll in it with 453 votes cast. 437 replies. with a number of people replying more than once, this is the highest activity I’ve seen on these forums. (Admittedly I’m not scrolling too far down, but for my point this is good enough) 30% of these votes think the sudden jump in difficulty is completely fine, the only real issue is the terrible lighting effects, and yet I have never completed a full book run on it courtesy of that extreme difficulty spike at the last event. I haven’t played a single game where anyone has even attempted to grab both grims. Usually there’s even debate at the beginning as to whether or not we’re going to grab even one. My point being, the average legend player is fully aware that the end of convocation is unreasonably difficult compared to the rest of the game on legend difficulty. The average player experience is not represented in these numbers or this forum at all. Absolutely everyone I have played this map with feels that way. If we had the nearly 11k monthly players respond, how do you think the percentages of that poll would look?
The average player isn’t part of the vocal minority that graces these forums, the people here are generally the most committed, longest serving, higher tier outliers in skill, not taking into account the people just here to report bugs of course. This is creating a small… almost echo chamber consisting of “The game needs to be harder for us to enjoy it. Do it Fatshark” which is what Fatshark are going to see, and assume is what the community as a whole wants. Now the reason I’m here typing all this out, is to try and point out that this is not the kind of thing that the majority of the playerbase wants. The game is already hard enough for the 90% (Don’t quote me on that, I’m making rough guesses on the actual ratio, but you get the idea I’m trying to convey)
Now, from a longevity standpoint, I can say first hand that I have seen this lose the game players. Over the years I’ve convinced a third of my friends list to buy and play Vermintide 2 with me at various points, roughly 20 people. I’d gotten maybe a quarter of them up to legend with me and we were enjoying ourselves. They weren’t hardcore players, and we weren’t grinding out runs on a daily basis, but we’d play fairly frequently and enjoy ourselves… and then an update would come out. Suddenly the weapons they’d been using felt worse, enemies simply weren’t dying as quickly as they were before, and for those that were still around, It took the will to load up the game out of them.
Nobody on my friends list plays the game anymore. I can promise you they aren’t the only people this kind of dejection affected in the same way.
What I’m trying to do here, is point out that nerfs for the sake of a minority of players aren’t helpful to the game in general. That people that want the game to be more difficult, already have avenues to get this that aren’t going to make people think “You know what, I’m just going to play something else” The modded realm exists exactly so that the few can play the way they want without affecting the many. If using a talent is making it too easy for you, don’t use it. It isn’t making it too easy for a lot of other people.
To clarify, I’m not here fanboying CoM+Vanish, It’s not what I’m arguing for. I’m arguing against nerfs in general for the sake of the top tier players, who can already achieve what they want without affecting everyone else.
I’m not advocating for rewarding low skill players, I’m trying to avoid punishing them because some of us are considerably better.
You say the game has to have danger to be fun, and I completely agree. But what you consider dangerous, and what the average player consider dangerous are a world away.
Can you see where I’m coming from?
7 Likes
Shouldn’t that be a point in favor of removing Vanish chaining? 
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Lol, again the argument I’m making isn’t specifically for vanish.
It’s the reasoning behind why people are asking for it to be removed/general nerfs I’m arguing against.
Besides a 1 second cooldown is still going to make no real difference for a deathwish onslaught cata player, It’s not going to be difficult to adjust to, it’ll just make clearing out the enemies slightly slower.
2 Likes
But that point is 100 % moot because most of the suggested adjustments in these forums are simply not notable on Legend or below. So all the players within these difficulties would never notice them anyway wouldnt it be for Patch Notes. And then it is just a knee-jerk reaction “Oh my god, they nerfed something. To the pitch forks.” If all weapons would do 10 % less damage for example it wouldnt make a difference on Legend due to the large discrepancy of enemy health between Legend and Cataclysm.
These adjustments are asked for, for the longevity of the game. I don’t know a single game where power creep was good for the game. Not a single one. Also, it was and is incredibly rude to just point people towards the modded realm or similar. Because you know, if people want the game to be easier, they already have avenues to get this WITHIN the official realm and quickplay pool. It doesn’t make sense to alienate people away from the official realm out of a difficulty which does not even give better loot just because people are to prideful to play a lower difficulty.
Sorry, to say it like that. But this argument itself is bs. Legend equals VERY HARD in other games. Either you are a hardcore player who wants to have challenge or you are a casual player who spends his time on Champion or below. But insisting that Legend is casual territory shows that something is wrong here. Seriously, I don’t know any other game where people are this insistent that the VERY HARD difficulty should be playable with such an ease. It doesn’t make sense. In most games, people don’t even touch a difficulty higher than normal (equals Veteran). There is simply a perception issue.
By any means, I am a bad player. Yet, I advocate for adjustment of overpowered and boring, unfun stuff. Because if I want to live out some kind of power fantasy I can go to a lower difficulty.
Buffzerking has not helped any game ever and the mentioned changes would hardly be noticeable on Legend and below. But there seems to be some kind of gamer instinct to reject adjustment of stuff even if it makes the game better, more interesting, better balanced, more fun and more diverse.
6 Likes
that’s…an interesting take
I’d like to direct you to the last balance beta which worked towards that goal. However we also tuned down very clear overperformers because diversity of choice requires choices being meaningful. If everything has 99 dodges and 1 shots every elite then there’s no point in even having an arsenal we all may as well just have one weapon.
tbh can’t think of a single instance of a forum thread in feedback causing sweeping nerfs or balance changes alone. Fatshark typically looks to the data they have on their end to do what they do and people here and on other feedback vectors (the discords, reddit, steam etc.) all feel like we’re typically not listened to at all.
Nerfs/changes like that haven’t happened in almost 2 years now
that can easily be flipped to saying “players can just drop down a difficulty” but either direction of argument would be silly.
fully understand this and that’s why I (and a lot of other people) want a lot of different things buffed or fixed. The nerfs that most people want are in regards to perceived balance outliers that impact diversity of choice. It’s not fun to have choices feel meaningless.
2 Likes
I appreciate your input and respect your point of view.
So, in essence, you are advocating against any and all kind of nerfs since they will make the game harder for less hardcore players, while said hardcore players will not be overly affected by the nerfs due to their skill compensating for the nerfs.
If I may, I would like to explain why I think these fears are unwarranted.
- The aim is not to bascially “delete” current builds that are overperforming. Instead, reining them in should not change their playstyle all that much if at all.
Take Shade Cloak of Mist + Vanish as an example.
With the changes suggested in the op, her current playstyle would not be changed whatsoever. You could still chain invis backstabs, you still have cooldown reduction, etc. - it all remains the same.
The only difference is that you can no longer delete an entire patrol by yourself while completely invisible and do it all again within 15 secs because the cooldown is so low.
Either going for frontal attacks with Cloak of Mist for more potential damage but with the risk of being visible, OR still chaining backstabs but now being limited to 1 kill per second, thus having a max amount of 4 kills per ult while invis.
Exactly! It is lowering the damage output of Cloak of Mist when trying to keep Vanish active.
The result would not ruin the current playstyle or turn Shade into an underperforming class that can no longer be considered viable.
Consequently, the impact of such changes is not as drastic as some might think.
- Secondly, I would argue that most of these changes would only have a marginal impact on lower difficulties. The suggestions here are aimed at the level of base cata - not twitch, not modded, not weeklies etc. and definitely not at lower difficulties.
(How such nerfs impact modes that are not properly balanced separately is another issue entirely.
E.g. see weaves.
For weaves, such nerfs would make that mode even more unbearable but I’d rather have a better main game than sacrifice balance for the sake of making weaves less painful.)
Therefore, the suggestions disproportionately affect cata difficulty and not any other difficulty below that.
Players playing on those lower difficulties would hardly feel them.
Again, an example: Masterwork Pistol.
If its damage on altfire right click got reduced (by, let’s just say 30%), it would not change its performance on legend at all.
Properly kitted out, Mwp deals ~110 dmg to armor - enough to 1shot Bestigors on cata, nevermind SVs.
It deals at least ~100 dmg to infantry, letting it 1shot infantry specials.
With 30% less dmg, that would still be ~75 dmg to armor and 70 dmg to infantry.
Bestigors on legend have 66 hp, SV only 52.75, infantry specials have 66 hp as well.
As a result, MWP would be almost exactly the same on leged as before, only losing some dmg versus bosses and CWs (with Rv ult).
In general, the changes suggested in the op and/or by other members in thread are by and large only relevant for cata.
Everything below cata would not be affected to any considerably degree.
In my eyes, the concern that less hardcore players would be getting “punished” by nerfs is uncalled for.
3 Likes