Only taking about champion and legend, where going down once puts you on deaths door, going down again during that state without you healing yourself kills you immediately. Commonly referred to as “grey”.
I have seen alot of people using healing supplies on legend when they were not grey, simply on low life. No horde was near, they were in no danger of dying anytime soon. This waste of healing is what gets people killed, and should be explained in abundance somewhere before even unlocking champion, because it becomes very relevant there. Recruit and veteran teach you very bad habits with the overflow of healing and being allowed to go down more than once before dying.
The character voice lines also dont help at all, telling players on low life to heal themselves.
Another thing that should be taught is that bandages are more important to carry than healing draught, especially if the other three players are carrying tomes.
This is something not only Vermintide has problem with.
I have noticed several games in this style (L4D) where you have no idea how many times you can be down, were downed, and that your lifes are different across difficulties.
And in every game people are asking for it to be explained/visible.
Sometimes it’s better to heal up beforehand, because there might be no horde NOW, but 30 seconds later the person on low health is jumped by a gutter runner, it deals enough damage to down him and immediately after a horde spawns along a blighstormer while a patrol teleports right in front of you.
Sometimes it’s even detrimental not to heal before going down, because,especially on legend, there’s no telling if you’ll be revived once you’re ambushed and it still takes time to get you up.
Also,as a principle you should have at least two people topped off. If your entire team is low hp and doesn’t heal because you’re all waiting to heal death state then you’ll most likely get wiped.
So,healing before being wounded is a tactic that’s sometimes good to utilize,hence the game doesn’t shout at you for healing before you get downed.
fully agree with everything else about this mechanic you commented on but im not sure about this part anymore. in v1 it was very much true but i am thinking it might not be the right meta in this , with the power creep on both sides in v2 downs are far more likely be outs and lead to wipes and there is a lot more merit in avoiding any down in the first place this time around.
That is a scenario that would likely wipe the entire team, low health or not.
Thats why people should always stick together, but mostly elf and sienna players tend to run off, get stabbed, then come back, grab the only healing available and use it. It is infuriating, especially when a waystalker does it.
Yes, I agree. When everybody is low, the priority is either the grim carrier or the class that is most capable of dealing with a last man standing situation. But there is no reason to use healing when its the beginning of the level, nobody is carrying anything in the mundane slot, 3 players are full hp and the elf that fell down the ladder in dreisdunkel mine grabs the first healing she finds and gobs it. There is no thinking ahead, no preserving of resources. Which is crucial in legend.
Well, not exactly,because if a gutter runner attacks a 10% hp player,that player will go down in the first two stabs. If the player had half health(after drinking a draught for example) he wouldn’t go down and the team would have one more person to deal with the crisis.
but they don’t always do that,or they split up so 2 people go grab a grim/tome
well,yeah,that happens,but it still doesn’t mean healing without going down should never be done/is a bad thing.
Game won’t teach anyone the importance of healing supplies,people will either think of it first or learn from their mistakes. Or they won’t and go back to vet/champ.
I dont see whats bad about the game teaching people extremely crucial information. If anything, it can only improve our legend quickplay experience, why debate it? Right now, alot of people that never played vt1 or l4d start off playing recruit, have a healing from the get-go, and get showered with healing drops throughout the level. Then, eventually they proceed to veteran, no more healing from the start, still alot of drops in the level, they can go down multiple times still. Then, they come into champion and its such a massive change that the game just doesnt inform them about. I know I was utterly confused,being a rusty vt1 veteran, when on recruit/veteran going down twice in a row didnt kill me but on champion suddenly it did.
I see so many people on legend that still dont understand the importance of preserving healing for the grey state. They even get defensively agressive when I try to explain it to them. So many times somebody used a healing while above half hp even, thinking we wont come back for it as everybody had the slot full, and few seconds later, horde happens and that healing was painfully missed after the onslaught.
Until they learn from their mistakes, it can be a long while. Because people, in my experience, are generally bad at admitting a mistake they made, so if they dont even see themselves making a mistake, they cant learn from it. Usually, they happily blame everybody else. And during that time, they keep playing legend, stick to their bad behaviour, and ruin runs unintentionally.
Well,you may be right. I didn’t give it much thought, but I played L4D almost religiously for a few years and then I played the sequel and every clone and similar game I could get my hands on and I never stopped. Managing health in co-op games is as natural as breathing for me.
Imagine my roller coaster of emotions on this scenario:
Legend, into the nest mission. Sack rat was running into the boss arena, died, dropped two bandages. I was so happy, thinking there is no way we are gonna lose this fight. All turned to despair when i saw the two publics drop their tomes, simultaneously healing themselves way above 50% health bar. They were absolutely positively not in grey state. There was no time to stop them, neither in chat nor in voice. So we were left with one bandage on my friend, and 3 tomes. I investigated their profiles, they both had over 100 hours in vt2. We ended up losing, and I had to take a break to get myself sorted.
I also sometimes forget people dont have the vast knowledge of different genres of videogames I posess. Thats why im all for the game teaching them the important stuff.
I forget that all the time. I just don’t think about the essentials anymore. But yeah,that situation you were in was a bit crappy.
That’s also why I like the 25% not to use up healing-the times I use a draught three times in a row and then give it to a party member are as glorious as they are numerous.
It really just depends. If you are a squishy dps holding a grim for some reason, or carrying the team or coming up on a boss area or beserker area or event, then it may be very wise to heal up, especially if you have a dupe trinket.
The old “wait til you drop to grey before healing” is a holdover from Vermintide 1 that doesn’t really apply in V2 anymore, since healing draughts don’t give you extra health if you use them while you’re wounded.
So especially if that healing daught won’t even heal you back up to full, then you are fine healing up before a risky fight, because something like a beserker on legend can delete a squishy very fast if you don’t spot it.
losing a teammate can be a bigger risk than ‘wasting’ a bit of healing supplies
What is a bigger deal I think is people with healing regen accessories not taking healing draughts because “they can’t heal”. Man, pick it up and carry it for when someone else needs it yo. Don’t just walk around with empty slots and leave stuff behind. Or at least carry a tome so someone else has a spot for a heal.
You are right tho that it is better to carry around a med kit than a draught. And you should usually have the person with a dupe accessory carry it around, or if you come across a med kit on the ground, let the person with the dup pick it up and heal whoever needs it.
I dont understand why are we debating about this. Are you against the game telling people how important healing supplies are? Because that is the main point im trying to make. Has it never happened to you that somebody used a healing on legend where you absolutely did not agree with the necessity?
maybe the hope was by the time people get into legendary they would understand the game’s fundamentals by now?? I mean it takes a bit to get the hero level to even play the difficulty
I’m saying that quibbling over use of medical supplies is a distraction from fight the game. I wouldn’t get super salty over a dude misuing a potion or something and start drama to have an argument over so people aren’t focusing. People are still going to do what they’re going to do even if the game yells at them.
What I’m saying is that YOU aren’t really characterizing the issue correctly. If you’ve taken one hit, have 75% health and drink a healing potion, you wasted a lot of that restore, and the game DOES YELL AT YOU FOR IT. The characters insult you for wasting healing.
But if you’re a class with a decent amount of max health and you are down to say 25% hp, and you use a healing draught that heals you back to around 90% hp and maybe even dupes the item, THEN YOU DID NOT WASTE ANY HEALING. Healing draughts don’t give you more hp when you are wounded like it did in Vermintide 1. By drinking it at 25% instead of wounded, you get the same amount of healing, but you make it less likely you will go down and be wounded at all. Better to have everyone up instead having one go down in a horde. On Legend as I said a Beserker or elite can often delete a squishy who was saving that heal pot and you just cant get to revive because a horde gets in the way. Really rather have used that health pot “early” than to lose a teammate.
The point you really need to hear though is that if you can’t make it through Legend without making perfect use of every healing item on the map, then you might not be ready for Legend. Healing supplies are scarce but if you’re getting hit so much that you have to obsess over their use to the point of getting mad at your teammates over it, then you really have other problems going on.
It wasn’t the optimal use of healing. But having everyone topped off near full health AND an extra med kit still left in your inventory, if you still lost that boss fight then the extra health you would have got from “optimal” use of the med kit would haven’t saved you dude. You don’t even say what health percent you got the boss down to, so I’m assuming it wasn’t that low.
It is a pretty intense fight, so there’s not even a guarantee that if someone goes down you will be able to get to the revive, and then get to one of the med kits on the ground, and then actually use the med kit to heal back up. And if you were able to do all that during the boss fight then you should have been good enough to beat him.
I suspect the truth is that you just have other gameplay issues and you’re doing a bit of blame shifting. You didn’t lose that fight because the team misused healing, you lost because your team just wasn’t up to the challenge. That’s ok, it is a tough fight with no respawns and no decent stash, it is ok to lose and it is even ok to just skip some tomes and grims on that level to make the fight easier.
But that it would bother you so much that you’d investigate your teammate’s profiles make judgments about them and then come demand the devs make some sort of change to prevent the misuse of healing, is a bit obsessive. I just don’t think the bit extra healing in exchange for the lost time of reviving people would have won you that fight.
Despite no respawns and no stash, Spinemanglr is a very fair fight, so long as you know his aoe has wonky range, and you know how to kite him around the column in the room when he agros you, and how to sidestep his charge attack. You can beat him without taking any damage.
There was also a huge difference with the OP-ness of Health Share in V1. Pre-consuming health was a huge no-no in V1 because it was utterly wasteful. Not so much in though.
has problem with.
though.