i just prefer to tackle causes not treat symptoms else nothing gets fixed.
why? the most successful 4 player co op game and the clear inspiration of this game ends with a simple “the survivors escaped!” and at the end of the credits it comes up with XXXX zombies were harmed in the making of this , its a proven mechanic to promote teamplay , so why do you think more is useful?
thats fair, but notice how your example is not a normal play exanmple . its just a giggle seeing how silly some things are
its my experince this behaviour is endemic in the V2 pug playerbase. not to a huge or toxic degree but little things constantly , the commone example i give is the waystalker ulting a stormvermin half a second before someone else’s heavy attack kills it, now anyone might do it , someone motivated by the scoreboard will do it deliberately and any time they can its a 2 point swing on the score card! somone focused on teamplay will view it as a mistake and not do it on purpose.
the way people behave on l4d2 to this day is still far more coperative in nature and v2 has a very competitive player base , now i dont know how much or even if any the score card is to blame for that but i think its a good place to start
I’ve been QPing on Cata for like 5.5k hours and only seen a few people play like this. I also added around 50 people who can join my games, etc and block those who do play like it.
I then have IRLs who play the game too.
Not showing score cards would do absolutely nothing to the person who bragged about getting green circles on V2. The same way it wouldn’t stop competitive players doing the same in Darktide.
It also wouldn’t stop the people who did the Beam Staff cheese, the QQ spam cheese, the recently fixed Battle Wizard broken Career Skill spam cheese.
The actual cause for people playing in a selfish way is usually Career design allowing them to do it:
E.g. Zealot, Shade, BW, Slayer, WPoS- who can all stand alone and can’t be punished for it.
Anyone can choose to play solo and fail, but these Careers allow it to happen.
I also notice how you ignored my actual example to make a non-argument about this one.
the most successful 4 player co op game and the clear inspiration of this game ends with a simple “the survivors escaped!” and at the end of the credits it comes up with XXXX zombies were harmed in the making of this , its a proven mechanic to promote teamplay , so why do you think more is useful?
L4D actually goes pretty in depth on who killed what at the end, so kind goes against your point entierly.
Now I have played a LOT of L4D1/2 and I have NEVER encounterd people farming kills.
I’ve been playing some B4B on gamepass recently and the lack of scoreboard is really noticable, and I miss it a lot (although a minor note for a spiritual successor that gets a lot wrong (hem hem, sounds almost familiar))
It was always fun to read all that stuff with friends.
There were so many things in the list that almost guaranteed everyone would be the best at something.
That’s the better approach than removing everything.
but how many hours have you been qp’ing on cata without the scorecard? perhaps over your extensive time you have been conditioned to expect it as normal? perhaps you dont havea frame of reverence of it being better to see what it could be
Agreed , a tool will be a tool no argument , im not talking about them , im talking baout us. the continous incentivising and rewarding of selfish and competitive behaviour game after game has an affect, perhaps one you wont notice till its gone or you experince a system without it , but its there , people respond to reward systems and that bias will creep in noticed or not.
the safety or need for the teams help is certainly a factor and something else that should be fixed, im not saying a competitive scoreboard is the root of all evil its just one factor.
hmm sorry i mised it , and going back now im not sure what you mean unless this is it?
we could see 5 years ago thast why we dont use it but i did try it
or maybe
which is a fair argument for Fatshark to harvest metrics which im hopeful they do already other than that it seems to be making my point.
Never thought about it, because the game is fine with scorecards. I haven’t experienced any of the downsides to them that are being claimed in this thread.
If people are going to be toxic they’re going to be toxic.
Also you’ve made an argument against yourself here. You have no evidence that not seeing the scorecard will fix any of the problems you’ve outlined.
Again, you have no evidence that this will be the case. And people don’t play selfishly in my groups despite the scorecard and despite us finding the high numbers on it fun to see.
As I’ve said. It’s been a factor for 2-3 games in my 5.5k hours of QP. Where are these masses of games where people are being toxic about scorecards?
The most toxic behaviour I’ve seen is against players for playing specific OP Careers, and randoms who are in my games flame them and then get kicked and blocked. And because of memes about specific characters.
Or rarely griefers.
That’s it.
Oh, and racist Americans. I have no idea why this is a thing, but it is.
No idea what this means, sorry.
But with more information, we could do the same with Talents, and Stats.
The same applies to things like Boss damage. There’s no indicator as to which Weapons or Attacks actually have good Boss damage. Heavy Attacks are actually worse than Light spamming with some.
The only way I found this out was by testing on Bosses with similar uptime and using the scorecard after the match.
Even if they are, they’re clearly not using it for balance, so players need to speak up. Which we do. E.g. BH with shotguns, which I already said would be OP, is insane and can do a stupid amount of damage. If we didn’t have scorecards we couldn’t see how much, but we do.
Or BW doing insane damage with no real thought necessary.
Or even to show how useless bots are when players don’t join for an entire match.
It already takes forever for them to fix OP things as it is, if we lost this tool to speak out about it, the game could become horrible, because the meme of the OP thing spreads faster than they fix it. Look at Battle Wizard. Look at WS Bloodshot interaction that’s still broken. Look at shotguns BH, which will likely never be changed.
I don’t see how any of this is proving your point. You even made a point against me that you have no evidence to prove that what you’re saying would work at all.
The only time someone commented on the scoreboard in a negative manner in my entire V2 playtime was a Sienna on my team. “Wow 1200 damage taken - classic sienna”. We all laughted about it and had a great time. It was on Legend difficulty.
I’m usually the MVP of the team so green circles gave me a great amount of dopamine. I was never “chasing” green circles because I didn’t know this was a thing and now it just sounds wierd lol. I recently played with an elf who had green circles EVERYWHERE but the friendly fire one. This was crazy thinking how well I play and not to mention the two other players. We were in awe of that guy. He was completely nuts. If you’re green circle chasing and you’re doing everything right then you’re no longer chasing but instead you’re playing well and carrying the game.
You know what’s interesting? The huge impact of the lack of scoreboard in terms of community interaction. In V2 we would laugh about friendly fire, ranged kills and special sniping, damage dealt or damage taken and now? There is NO connection built between you and the other guys. The game ends and there is nobody talking about the game or stats. No gg or even “aight imma head out”. Player interaction on that part is cold dead.
I don’t mind it being gone, as DRG also doesn’t really have much of a scoreboard(they’re also misleading - hitting stuff counts as ‘kills’, for example), and i’ve never needed it there. Of course, one of many things mollifying me in that regard is that DRG mostly gives me all the numerical data I could want, and then lets you mod the game like crazy to get whatever else you need for testing/experimenting/demonstrating/etc. Things like damage numbers when you hit targets, creature spawners, that kind of thing.
Since I don’t expect Fatshark to change their lack of numerical data/poorly explained nomenclature before release, and they’ve stated outright they won’t be supporting modding at all, it’s kind of a shame we’re losing the scoreboard as well. We’re being left intentionally dark on so much of the game and how it’s meant to work, so I definitely sympathize with wanting some kind of tangible feedback beyond ‘well I think this weapon does more damage, but who knows?’
Honestly, considering it’s Fatshark, I wouldn’t count on any specific suggestions mattering. Either they plug their ears and wait for us to stop asking for the scoreboard, or they just port the V2 one back in(and cause more problems; a classic). At least fix assists not working, if you do. Please?
90% of Vermintide 2 quick plays were silent throughout and after entering the Keep again the group would almost instantly disban. Only rarely there would be a comment about the scoreboard, usually when a number is out of the norm and sometimes there was just a talkative person in the group.
Experienced the same in the Darktide beta. People just wanted to play, there wasnt really anything to talk about with randoms, unless there was something out of the norm and that happened once when like three people died on my team and i soloed a small horde with some elites in it, so the team cheered knowing that the diff 4 run wasnt lost. At the end we shared GGs and then disbanded again.
maybe people don’t talk because in the beta you don’t stay in a group, and are not in a keep after the game, and you know reenter a map as the same group…
to claim that people interact less because scoreboard hurr durr seems far fetched.
People don’t talk in the beta because they only have 3 days to get as far as possible.
Of course they’re not out to waste time chatting.
You either get as far as possible or you could as well just play something else entirely.
But darktides design also discourages people from talking.
With the new matchmaking I believe you can’t even talk to people before the quickplay match actually starts.
So, you can’t even have a talk about strategy before you go, let alone switch characters to form a better team.
And after the mission by default it disbands the group.
The game seems to be designed to minimize player interaction.
In vermintide I usually play on avarage 2 - 3 games with a group.
Sometimes we lose the first missions until some kind of team coherency forms.
But at the same time I can check the scoreboard and see that in fact people did the damage our team just doesn’t work together properly.
In darktide if you lose you’ll probably NOT vote to keep the group together.
So, that might be lost in darktide.
On a side note:
Darktide disbanding the groups by default is actually a huge opportunity for toxicity.
A lot of people are probably gonna post insults in the last seconds before it ends.
I’ve seen some of that in the beta, rarely. But this will probably get worse if they actually remove the chat filter or make it optional.
IMO this whole design is much more detrimental to the well being of the community than any scoreboard ever could.
It boggles my mind how they can alter the previous model like this but remove a bunch of numbers in a table because it would be too toxic.
You have posted a response to Cedric, but your post doesn’t address what he said.
Cedric IS saying we should have a better scoreboard that is useful.
*EDIT: As I read on, I see the festival of love and understanding that has ensued, and I see there is some meeting of the minds and later on you DO acknowledge what he has said. And I necro a discussion that has started to settle
What? People listening to each other on a gaming forum? Now I’ve seen it all
Will it all hold up as I keep reading this thread? Will more folks come in and further build on my accidental necro of this two-week old settled mini-feud??? The suspense…*
Imagine being offended by a scoreboard. If its really such a horrible thing then make it a toggle feature and call it a day that way people who aren’t offended by numbers can have their metrics and people who are offended can stay in their safe spaces. Problem solved mind blown. The real flaming of this game won’t be because of a scoreboard it will be because of open voip.
Gamers will always be gamers, sure, but why have a feature that doesn’t provide reliable data and tends to promote bad gameplay decisions in a coop game where one players bad decisions can affect three other people.
Because people like to see how they performed with end game stats? Seeing your stats at the end of a match only makes you want to do better the next game. Competition is healthy and i have made more friends from it. I have played over 2500 hours of vermintide and i have rarely seen anyone flamed for end game performance. Dark tide already ensures you have to stick together as a team with the coherence mechanic. So why were scoreboards removed? Because a very vocal minority spoke out and the rest of the players who will be playing this game longer than them got punished. I mean please by all means find middle ground like i said make it a toggle feature or a personal scorecard only so that why i can alteast compare with my friends. Once you have all the gear and have done all the levels on the max difficulty the only thing that makes you want to further improve is your stats from previous matches. The drive to out do yourself adds more replay value than anything else.
but i did try it