in thousands of vermintide games I can remeber 2 times where someone actually was toxic because of the scoreboard. And for me it was very useful comparing different melee weapon dps outputs. Ofc I could tell that I was doing better with certain weapons, but it’s nice to be able to quantify how much better some builds were working out for me. If you just do a few runs on a weapon and you get higher dps every time its pretty safe to assume that this weapon actually deals more dmg in your playstyle. The numbers are not as bad as people are saying. If the only argument is that it spreads toxicity - I can only tell that I have had a different experience so far, but could we at least have private stats?
Apparently most people who played legend or cataclysm have that experience.
It seems to be something with the difficulty how people behave.
I mean it makes some sense.
The games are tough on higher difficulties.
I guess people who become “toxic” are the ones who don’t appreciate the struggle.
And the scoreboard may function as a way of proof for them to blame other people for a loss.
Somewhere along the way people who feel it’s becoming too hard don’t progress.
The players who stuck with it and progressed to regularly play cataclysm accepted the struggle and generally don’t overvalue the scoreboard.
Because as I said before as well my experience is completely different too.
In my experience the vermintide 2 community is one of the friendliest communities there are.
Well, on cataclysm at least.
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The bots don’t just stand around blocking but they are certainly significantly less efficient killing machines than a human player.
The only use a scoreboard has (IMO) is comparing your own performance against past performances, although I could have said this more explicitly.
So what I’m saying is that comparing your performance with 3 fixed players who play the same way every time (or comparing theirs) is already useless.
Trying to use a scoreboard to judge your own performance against anything run on run when the other 3 players are random, playing random classes that may either inflate your numbers or take from them is not a great way to judge if you’re improving as a player.
The more variables change, the less useful the data. Bots are kinda consistant and I still feel the data a scoreboard gives is useless.
Also, I’d imagine Darktide will have similar director variance that V2 had; The same map with the same conditions could well spawn 2 monsters or 0. 50 specials or 100.
What could the scoreboard track that is genuinely useful data? Accuracy? Headshots? Even then those two stats could be seen as being in conflict. aiming for headshots will result in more missing, but possibly a better kill rate when landing them.
So what is worth tracking? How long specials are left alive and not dealt with? How many times the did team push too fast into a monster spawn point when an ambush was due? No one probably cares about these things when they are asking for a scoreboard but they are arguably at least useful, unlike the “yay, number bigger!” that people probably want. Don’t get me wrong, “yay, number bigger!” is nice sometimes, but its not exactly useful.
whatever, just give me MY stats. if im in comms with my buds we can compare girth for fun, or not. who cares. I’d like some validation toward effort spent. how many revives did i get again? how much damage did I take? these are IMPORTANT things to note of if youre trying to master the craft.
we dont have to measure stats against the team. a personal scoreboard is just fine.
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How many headshots do I make with this weapon on average?
Do I make more with this weapon or the other one?
That’s a personal thing, I guess.
You don’t really need to compare, although it is nice if you can.
Especially ogryn has many ranged weapons where headshots seem coincidental at best.
But I would like to check which weapon tends to hit the spot more often.
If there’s someone in the team with a strong weapon but rarely does weak spot damage it might explain why a boss was so tough to deal with.
Knowledge that doesn’t help you directly is still knowledge to rule out other causes.
How many elites do I kill with this weapon?
I could compare the same weapons with different properties.
There are a bunch of properties on weapons like giving you crit chance for 2,5 secs where you can’t really tell if this is worth it or not.
Do I want 3% crit chance for 2,5 secs every now and then or a flat 10% more damage to enemy x?
No idea. A scoreboard however could help you with that.
It’s not about killing the most.
But I can see after a few games I kill roughly 1/5 of the elites with this weapon and I might kill roughly 1/3 of the elites with the other one.
Of coure this all depends on the other players and how they play every time, sure.
If there is a player in the team that just nails their class and is derp good I can kinda disregard this round and say well, dude was just crazy.
But you definitely see if the properties on your otherwise mostly identical weapons make a difference with your playstyle after some games.
For me it’s also seeing my average spot performance-wise.
Am I getting low scores with this class or not?
Are my scores lower than the scores of others using the same class?
If so, why is that the case? What are they doing in the game? How do they play?
Because they are contributing more to the main goal, which is killing everything most of the time.
EDIT:
I just feel like if there was a scoreboard I would try more different things maybe.
Because I can roughly check what works better.
Is it worth getting used to this annoying shotgun that only has one shot and takes ages to reload?
Maybe. I can’t really tell if I simply kill more with the other ones or not.
So, I’m not gonna use the weapon that is annoying, even though it could be better.
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VT2 has had a scoreboard for ages and new people constantly join difficulties they’re not ready for so they can get carried. (Often enough they’ll flat out admit they’re there to be carried.) Whatever form of scoreboard Fatshark puts in Darktide won’t change that lol We’ll still see level 4s in Malice and people who aren’t good at aiming or keeping an eye on their surroundings won’t get better from a screen that tells them other people are better at those things than them.
In addition to this:
I also never even tried the grenade launcher gauntlet with my ogryn for that reason.
It seemed to be a grenade launcher and I already tried the other one (although now I know you can punch with it or something apparently) and I wouldn’t be able to see any damage numbers or anything after a game.
And since I was happy with my current weapon I just never even tried it.
I mean what’s the point if I can’t really tell if I do more damage with it?
I’m gonna use the weapon I like to use … even though it might be the worst one.
There is a difference between the two games though.
Well, it’s not that big technically.
But in darktide the chance that a low level player already spent dozens of hours on other characters is higher than in vermintide.
When I started a new character a few days ago I joined malice with level 7 or something.
And if the team was good there was no problem and I could survive without getting saved at every corner.
On the other hand I’ve played malice games with my level 30 ogryn and the team was just so fragmented in playstyle and skill that we lost anyway.
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scoreboard good, no scoreboard bad
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Kinda makes me want weapon stats though, not a scoreboard.
I see your point and it’s certainly showing metrics, but it’s IMO closer to reading tea leaves regarding how much those numbers were due to that 3% stacking temp buff vs flat 10%.
Maybe I’m just too used to looking up breakpoints in V2 and judging things on a per encounter basis rather than as a whole. e.g. in Cata does this weapon let me stay alive against a hoard and comfortably pick out berserkers and armoured unites without feeling overwhelmed.
Is that something different breakpoints can fix?
Is it the weapons attack patterns working against my play style?
Is the temp buff active enough to be worth it over something else?
So while you say the scoreboard could tell you if 10% more damage is better, to me I’d just go look at a spreadsheet, does that 10% make me hit a breakpoint for any enemy that would be meaningful? if not, then I want something else.
I find these things I can test without finishing a mission or using a scoreboard. But I don’t bring them up to counter your point, I do agree with you, having numbers to corroborate with how you felt it was going is more useful than nothing.
The only thing I maybe disagree with you on is:
I think for testing stuff like that, the scoreboard could be seen as the enemy of progress, you’re typically going to be playing better with the familiar rather than the new. At which point you just need to put some time in with it and compare it later.
I’d still argue your own intuition from time spent playing with those weapons/traits/perks/feats etc would be a stronger indicator than anything the V2 scoreboard offered.
While you are arguing for a scoreboard, what you say just makes me want more tools in the Psykhanium to track accuracy, headshots, etc.
That’s fair enough but it also varies by the group and what’s going on. Sometimes you recognise that you’re playing with 3 other people that have no idea what’s going on around them and are just chasing down whatever they see, so you can often find yourself playing a more supporting role, covering their backs and hovering between them. You could just commit too and chase some higher numbers but you’re way more likely to fail the mission due to team discordance.
And sometimes you’re just trying out a CC focus and setting up your team to get easier cleaner kills, or maybe other players were.
Again I don’t really disagree with you, I just think the V2 scoreboard is… lacking and can easily lead people to incorrect conclusions. But I’m not arguing against its inclusion, just questioning what function it would serve.
If you could let a bunch of hordes and other stuff attack you in the Psykhanium.
Maybe even a godmode toggle.
And if it would give detailed statistics about it.
Testing weapons and properties might be more feasable.
But that’s just one part I used the scoreboard for.
I still very much want to see if I’m better than other players or worse.
Wanting to see if you’re better and focusing teamplay don’t necessarily contradict each other.
We’re all doing our best, but I want to see who did the most.
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Agreed.
I do hope the Psykhanium gets more added to it. V2 had a mod that let us play around with some things like this on the modded realm for testing, it would be nice to see more tools or scripted options added in.
Even if it’s just a static wave simulator, spawning in the same enemies in an area that rush towards a fixed location and you can test out how well certain weapons and traits handle there.
I guess this is getting off topic regarding scoreboards, although having a scoreboard for that specific scenario would IMO be a more useful one.
But how can you see really who is doing the most? How to measure this? Only based on kills?
Just a short example.
I played as an ogryn with 3 veterans and we were entering a passage to a bigger hallway with 1 entrance.
The veterans are falling a little behind as usual and i get a position at the side and just spamend strikes and pushes without seeing what is coming.
This way there are no enemies comes trough the small passage and cetting to close to the veterans.
I do such things because i like to play strategically if possible and i can imagine how much i block the los just standing in the middle.
Or an psyker who use often his stun weapon (dont know the name) for cc mostly to protect the group or get ranges out of cover.
So if you play like this how could you get a picture who did the most in the end.
In other words how much is it worth to see who kills most.
For me it looks like in this game with all the differnet playstyls and roles you can use, a scoreboard would just make less sence then in other games and would not even tell how a single person perform.
I play like this as well.
Finishing the mission is the ultimate goal.
If you have the most kills but lost the mission it’s obviously meaningless.
You only see if someone did kill far too few enemies to be a big help.
I’m simply interested in seeing how I and others do.
If I usually have around 12k damage with my class and someone else has 30k with different weapons I’m gonna look into these weapons.
Unless of course it was just a mission with many hordes or something special that distorts the usual ranges.
I would also like to see the other players gear in the end screen so I can try and piece together more information.
As I said earlier this doesn’t have to be limited to kills and damage.
I would also like to see who finished the most objective things in the map for example.
Hacking, destroying the corrupter things on the walls, carrying the batteries, and so on.
But the kills and damage are also important.
Because you have to kill stuff to survive.
Someone who focuses killing probably has low scores on team- or mission-oriented things.
And if someone kills the most enemies AND does all the objective things … well, then, by all means gg.
ok ill share an advanced strat. you hit it see it if dies, if it doesnt you hit it again then you compare how many times it took to kill it . and thats how you know if it works!
i know it looks impossible but with just leanring how to count to … well 2 will do it mostly you can use this super advanced strat and achieve the impossible , something that cant be done … you can compare a weapon!
and then you wont be forced into using the worst weapon by those nasty bad commies that took away your scoreboard!
Ok then lets say I want to find out if I’d rather have crit chance on headshots or immunity to ranged attacks.
First I want to know over the course of a usual mission how many crits do I roughly do?
If I have something like 3% crit chance for 2 secs on headshots or something, how many more crits are that roughly. How much more damage roughly?
I have to play a few games probably but maybe you immediately see the difference I don’t know.
Second question is how often do I get immune to ranged attacks and how much damage taken does that prevent?
Again maybe it wouldn’t be very obvious on the scoreboard but maybe it would.
Then I can weigh the damage that result from more crits against the damage taken that I can prevent.
Without any kind of statistic or feedback I can only guess.
A scoreboard can have everything the game tracks on it? Other than passive blocking but even that could be calculated with enemies in x range for x time while blocking. People are acting like a scoreboard would be over the top but it should just be everything the game is already doing presented at the end. Were not getting a scoreboard because lots of small and large mechanics arent functioning as intended atm and it would show that. Every anti scoreboard post is dev pleasing cope.
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In that case I would say it’s a matter first of who is doing their job properly before who is performing best.
I’m not comparing a Psyker to anyone directly on the scoreboard if they’re using the stun staff, because their job at that point is to stun and I can see if they’re doing that in the middle of the game easily. Rather than downplay them for their scoreboard, I would see anything on their scoreboard as a benefit they happened to bring with their CC.
Same thing with Ogryn, if I can see in the middle of the match that they’re more focused on being a team player, I don’t necessarily care that they aren’t competing with the others.
If an Ogryn is basically playing the same as a Zealot, which I see a lot for Ogryns that don’t carry the shield, a direct comparison is more useful if they don’t get to do any of the Ogryn specific stuff, like interrupting a plague ogryn charge, or getting revives.
Other things that are harder to see, such as blocked damage, enemies pushed, and time in coherency, is stuff a scoreboard could show to further reinforce that the Ogryn did their job and played well.
So while I wouldn’t be directly comparing a Psyker or Ogryn in teamplay situations, I could still compare their stats relative to what I typically see other’s with the same playstyle on that class would do.
Sorry but i have to say it doesn´t matter to me if there is a scoreboard or not.
For me this is more a competition thing and i just want to have fun.
If you want to compare weapons i think the best way is to use the meatgrinder.
But i also can understand why it is important for some players. It is just a different way of fun for my understanding.
To also see other things in a scoreboard like who (as an simple example as mentiont) carry the batteries is a nice idea, but what if he get´s hit and it´s dropped and another person takes it if in the situation needet.
How would you calculate this? How big needs the scorebord to be and how many things you want to see beside the standarts?
To track all the possible variables and store them to display at the scoreboard beside the standart kill/rescue and so on would be hell of a lot code to write with a lot of failsafe functions.
This would also have an performance impact what i guess they already struggle enough with.
If fatshark put it in the game … then it´s fine for me, if they don´t also good.
But i still think a classic scoreboard is not needet because it simply tells you nothing about how a player behaves in this game.
As also mentiont here you can see this directly in the game if a player knows what he does most of time (the game release today, so this is more on a basic level and understanding).
And as i see the whole discussion about scoreboards here and in the steam forum i can only support fatshark with the decision they have made about it.
And this is not because it doesn´t matter to me, this is more about reading all this posts.
Sorry but i can see where it is coming from they decidet not to implement it.
Several of your points could be addressed using a graphs instead of numbers.
i.e. a diagram of health, damage, stagger, etc. over time would allow to identify those “close call” situations and learn how, when and what went good or bad for the team.
I play mostly with the same 3 dudes, played VT VT2 and now DT, and TBH we each fill a role, and the scoreboard at end lets us see how well people did that.
It allows you to improve your own build, but also see what things like bringing CC Kerillian does compared to tank one. Because we play together a lot, we get to see how choices, loadouts and teamwork affect the play.
When playing with PUG, I literally NEVER once experienced anyone flaming or mocking anyone based on scores… I think its a mute point, where “again” some foolish notion of “bending to the minority” is better then listening to the majority… Scoreboard toxicity was not a big issue -.- in any of my 763 hrs of playing VT2.
But not having a scoreboard ANOY me EVERY time I finish a mission - so my level of grievance is much higher then it ever was in VT1-2
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