I’m just trying to avoid confusion since to me a scoreboard is more for scoring player performance and stats are more feedback.
I think everyone here likes to have feedback, but not everyone is on board with their performance being scored or highlighted against the performance of other team members, particularly when it’s limited to scoring or highlighting actions that encourage competition over cooperation.
Nothing about what I said conflicted, you can show players’ stats without scoring them or highlighting any individual’s stats.
Well, you said your reason for wanting to remove information wasn’t that people would feel judged on it, and proceeded to make the case for removing information because it harms cohesion, because people act based on what their stats are going to look like… I may not have appreciated the lofty nuances of this line of reasoning, but it suuuure does sound dodgy. Let’s go over it again.
nobody’s asking to remove stats or hide feedback for fear their performance is being judged
and then
Scoring players’ performance vs. one another isn’t good for the co-op game team cohesion unless it’s based more on how well they contributed to the team
This assumes that damage and kills are not relevant to how well they contributed to the team. It also directly implies that team cohesion is harmed when people are shown damage and kills stats, because they are being judged on them… so yes, it is a complete self-contradiction.
As for the rest…
you can show players’ stats without scoring them or highlighting any individual’s stats
Uhhhh… just one fatal flaw there… People can read the numbers on the screen. They don’t actually need the green circle around the number to know it’s the highest number. Crazy how far we’ve come as primates.
If players are scored and you want them to compete without degrading cooperative gameplay…
Objection! Striving for higher levels of individual competence is not antithetical to cooperative styles of play!
…then do so by creating a total score that weighs cooperative gameplay actions more highly than selfish ones.
Ahhh! So you’re suggesting we don’t display individual stats at all, and obfuscate any actually useful or intelligible numbers as some kind of abstracted ‘teamwork score’? In which case, I completely agree! This would be an excellent way to obfuscate any useful information and protect everyone from the nasty, morally corrosive touch of facts.
If you just want people to descend into raw anarchy though, you could add some raw numbers about teamwork to the scoreboard. But that would be crrRRaaaaAAAAzzzZZZyyYYYYyyy
Thanks for not being a sad clown, mate.
Maybe we need more memes up in this thing.
But I think @Ensrick ultimately wants the same thing we do.
They can name it whatever they want.
Call it mission statistics and make a subset of teamwork related things that have much bigger numbers to draw the focus.
I don’t care I just want to see something.
I think you are confused grasmann. You want a scoreboard, I want the complete destruction of all information by which I might gauge the relative contributions of my team or myself.
We are bitter enemies.
Please do not speak to me, the tension between us is damaging my team cohesion.
.etam ,nwolc das a gnieb ton rof sknahT
Not quite, weighting a performance based more on kills than not can prioritize competitive behavior over team play.
It doesn’t assume kills are not relevant, but in many cases, an individual’s damage is much less relevant to how well they performed. It’s more about how well the entire team damage vs the performance of any one individual. Many player talents, items, and skills are designed to enable others to do damage. Actions that benefit the team are more valuable than simply getting the most kills relative to however many other team members got.
Kills are not irrelevant, just scoring kills alone doesn’t do the team’s performance justice. If people hyper-focus on kills, it will not promote team play as much as competing to get kills.
You don’t need the circles to see the highest number, yet there are green circles. The reason information is highlighted is to call attention to it. There’s no reason to do that for any individual stat. The only concern I have there is that it’s clear many players treat getting a lot of stats highlighted as if it means better overall performance.
It can be when the scoring highlights the cooperative aspects, or when a player’s total score is based more on cooperative gameplay and contribution to the team than individual performance vs. other teammates.
No, individual stats can be shown for useful feedback, but a total score can be used to weigh the individual stats based on their value to the team rather than vs. the team.
The discussion alone is interesting enough for me. I don’t need you to try to entertain me. If it’s not interesting, you can look for entertainment elsewhere. I’m not a super funny guy.
Real talk, I would be completely happy if what we got was a better VT2 scoreboard, without the green circles if they are really that much of a dopamine trap that people care more about them than the teamplay, and with a bunch of additional stats that measure how well you supported your teammates.
DRG has post-game scoring on how everyone contributed individually, with kills (which I maintain are massively important, because every moment something is alive and trying to kill you, your team is more likely to wipe), ores mined, and so forth.
DRG also has probably the best - or certainly one of the best - well-mannered, most cooperatively minded communities out there in gaming.
The real cause in my view of the vast majority of poorly behaved players in this game, is going to be the 40k fans who come to play who think the Imperium of Man ‘has the right idea’. Sort of like those fans of Starship Troopers who don’t get that it’s satirical. But that is a digression.
I haven’t played DRG, but from what I’ve heard it seems to be the gold standard for quality co-op games of the kind the tide games are. Presumably, if Darktide implements a scoreboard as good as DRG and DRG has well-mannered players, it’d be good for Darktide. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
Are you suggesting they don’t?
[ACCOUNT HOLDER PURGED]
That was meant for @Astronomer.
I took my sentence back.
I know for a certainty that the scoreboard changes my behaviour. When it’s there I’m stressed out about others seeing me as the one having the least damage and kills.
Had a game earlier today, 3 preachers and me as a veteran. I barely did anything, and I think that was the right thing to do. The preachers took care of melee and most specials, I hung back and kept a good overview of the geame and if they were busy I took care of the occiasional sniper or poxbomber. If there was a score board I wouldnt have hung back and I would probably miss a few of those specials and we as a team would perform worse.
As long as you stay alive it’s fine.
People complain when someone is burden, rarely if someone just does less.
At least that is my experience from vermintide 2.
Pretty much this. In 600 hours I’ve never encountered toxic people in DRG as a result of the scoreboard. I find the whole argument of removing it (or the argument about how it doesn’t add anything positive) to be silly. At the end of the day, I came here to suggest the scoreboard get added because frankly, it’s a little boring not seeing it.
I really don’t care if people did bad, I’ll never call anyone out even if they’re being completely rubbish at the game - I just like seeing how I and others did, maybe I saw an awesome looking guy with a thunderhamer smashing his way through elites and wanted to see just how hard he slapped for a laugh
I am one of those and I can confirm ; yet I do not think this is a proper point of view.
According to the stats that FS published, 65% of the playerbase in VT2 plays Champion or below.
The Legend+ vets who play the team game and are overwhelmingly benevolent are not representative of the overall community.
Scoreboard toxicity exists, we have just risen above it.
After 80 or so hours with the beta, I have come to the conclusion that some form of scoreboard has to exist. Else certain player types will never get the feedback they need to become better team players. I have had to suffer through so many matches with people way below the needed level/gear score, or with a total lack of gameplay awareness - it was truyl frustrating at times. And I don’t like to criticize let alone flame people for poor gameplay, I really don’t. But there just has to be some kind of feedback from the game to show people where they might be doing poorly so as to not get stuck in bad routines simply because others were carrying their heavy a$$es.
Now, how that scoreboard is structured is a different matter entirely. And I really I wouldn’t mind the option for people to opt out; and have chat/voice comms disabled during the outro. I can fully accept it if some people are sensitive to criticism in something that is an escape from real world problems. But I want to believe that most people are interested or at least open to some level of feedback…
How is a scoreboard going to help players get a better awareness ?
Well, I am aware that “kills” are not by themselves a gold standard measure, but it really depends on what Fatshark puts on the score board, doesn’t it. “Number of times downed”, “Number of team mates rescued”, “Health replenished”, etc. There are many metrics one can think of that describe your overall “contribution”. Which is not to say that any one of these is a judgement on your value as a human being, and some of it will also follow a certain pattern for different classes, but I am convinced that it would be possible to derive some sense of “did I help the team or was I a burden”.
And again, if this somehow touches you in funny places, I totally support the possibility to opt out. But as it stands right now, I doubt that many players will even be aware of how they “function” within the team. And this is really obvious when you play with a steady group, and then switch to pugs, like I do.
Addendum:
It also doesn’t help that 99% of players do not use voice comms and that groups are, for the most part, not persistent like they were in VT2. You jump in a game, act like a total a$$, and then you are off to another group. No “accountability”, not real option to even engage in discussions about playstyles etc. Does FS expect that people just “get it”? The more likely scenario in my book is that people will quickly start leaving the game because they either a) constantly get grouped with people that don’t understand their class role or b) because they fail to advance to the higher difficulty levels because they lack real understanding of how to play with a team.
I found the VT2 scoreboard very helpful in my optimising of builds. Weather to up the number of rescues, DPS on monsters, special hunters or even tanking (less damage taken)
To removi it can only ever be a setback for players, and any who “whine about critisem” - maybe we can all be a little les woke, because the minority catering is getting out of hand -.-
I honestly think this is one of the only useful stats for self-improvement on V2’s scoreboard. It’s certainly one that I focused on when pushing into legendary and then again into cataclysm.
But even then, I think it counts temp health and in higher difficulties, you regularly have to make a choice to take a hit if that’s what makes the difference between a disabler dying or getting away. So it’s not like the player with the least damage taken is “better” and you’d only be looking to improve on your own score mission after mission. EDIT: also if you go down, your damage taken will be 5 times higher, as you have more downed health than alive health, so it inflates the number by huge amounts if your team can’t get you up or takes a long time to get to you. Yes, ideally, don’t go down, but I’m just pointing out that the number is then useless.
Chasing scoreboard values is almost always anti-teamwork. I’m just not sure if the scoreboard is the cause of the bad behaviour or if some players that would chase numbers at the expense of cooperative gameplay wouldn’t already just be chasing kills / glory anyway, regardless of if the numbers are shown at the end of the screen. But, it may reinforce that behaviour.
Maybe there are some situations where V2’s scoreboard has useful metrics with regards to elite/special kills vs trash kills depending on the class being played, but it’s certainly with that context of who was playing what and what their roles were within the party composition.
I’m still on the fence about this. I kinda miss the scoreboard screen from a curiosity standpoint, but I do think it has very little value for self-improvement and is certainly not useful in comparing yourself to others or how well you did within the context of being a good team player.
Certainly, these days when playing with friends the only time the scoreboard in V2 is talked about is the one friend that obsessively checks to see if anyone got a 69.
I’ll add another tangent here that’s not part of the main conversation but highlights a point.
Optimising bots for cataclysm, the scoreboard is useless for every single metric. Ironbreaker Bardin is a solid bot choice for general area control and easing the pressure you otherwise face, you typically gear him for stagger and survivability and you do notice when he’s down, or if you try and take a different bot. Mostly you notice because he protects the other bots better. Similarly, you don’t pick the other bot loadouts or classes based on how good they’d perform on a scoreboard.
Obviously playing through V2 cataclysm with bots is… an experience… and one most people wouldn’t choose to engage with, but its an interesting challenge with some fixed variables and it pushes you to improve as a player, even if that improvement is mostly in terms of babysitting 3 idiots with limited opinions on self-preservation through the hardest base difficulty V2 has. But I’d say the scoreboard has pretty much no useful metrics to help iterate on that challenge, and the same would be more true for 4 random players than it is for 3 bots with a fixed AI and one human player.
I’m not following that logic.
You are arguing the scoreboard is useless when you play with 3 bots, and I agree.
I would imagine the bots do almost nothing except standing around blocking for the most part.
So, on the scoreboard the only player would just look like the absolute killing machine.
But you say for real players it is even more useless than that?
