The Crafting Monument - In defiance of naysayers

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
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Alright, I’m with you and I might be talking in circles here, but:

I believe it is critical to consider why certain systems exist in a game before implementing them. For nearly a decade, World of Warcraft has struggled with the question of why certain systems exist and whether they are actually enjoyable to the playerbase.

So let’s discuss about around Darktide’s crafting using bullet points:

  • What purpose, if any, does crafting serve in Darktide?
  • How does said crafting contribute to the Darktide gameplay experience?
  • Does the introduction of a crafting system improve player enjoyment?
  • Is Darktide just as good without a crafting system?
  • Does Helldivers 2’s lack of crafting make it worse?

Personally, as an Auric Maelstrom sweat, looking at these bullet points (biased), I do not see why the crafting exists at all.

It does not add to my experience; there is not much build variety, and Darktide is primarily a mechanically engaging game in which reaction time determines your wins in encounters.

Darktide is not an RPG like Baldur’s Gate III, Icewind Dale, or Guild Wars, so having 20% or 25% damage against an enemy type does not pique my interest and are passive stats that you won’t feel/experience in a round anyway.

In comparison to a strategic RPG like Rogue Trader, Darktide is primarily an action shooter with melee, in which your safety is greatly increased if you kill things quickly. There are no counterspells or elemental weaknesses being exploited here.

I do not think the crafting is good in its current state, and I do not think Darktide needed one in the first place because Darktide’s Blessings are all about passive effects rather than being interesting and active effects where, for example, if you did something or there was a percentage chance on hit, your Purgatus could shoot out a fireball that did a small AOE or your surge would shoot out a lightning ball that stunned in a small AOE, etc.

As is, Blessings are passive, non-visible pseudo mechanics that you do not notice while mowing down 7 Ragers, 3 Crushers, 2 Bulwarks, and 5 Gunners in Auric Maelstrom.

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43

I agree with all of that on principle. I do think that there is some lore related reason why the weapons have stats though (such as they are and varied). I have noticed that there is some difference in the way stats are manifested on the battlefield. Sometimes when you get a weapon with low stats in a certain area, that’s probably because it scored high somewhere else, and as long as you’re aware of that flaw, this can be the difference of life and death.

There is though, the law of diminishing returns which makes weapon variance a little bit more interesting giving each weapon kind of a unique feel even though they have different blessings. That is, I’m not in favor of min-maxing, but I am in favor of playing off the weaknesses and strengths of a weapon that are given upon it. Making the most out of what has great potential if you can work with its weaknesses (bad rolls w/e they are) is where I find my joy.

THere are a few blessings that you do notice by sheer output and weapon behavior, but you’re right. Most of them are passives.

If we could have more active blessings that manifest different things, that would be really cool.

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Can we just have an AOE Trauma circle where a lightning bolt arcs from heavens and does a stun AOE…? Oh wait, can’t use it indoors LMAO

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TF is this topic for?

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Fatshark have been vocal about this game being as lore-friendly and immersive as possible. So when people say that crafting currently doesn’t add anything to the experience, that’s sort of categorically not true: you crawl around metalfabs and seedy underbellies and everyone with a gun that you fight against is better equipped than you, it only makes sense you’re bound to find some resources to improve your weapons with.
Or just straight up better weapons. And since you start with white weapons, crafting adds a layer of progression.

The problem is it’s not a meaningful layer currently.

But more to the point of the post - i think positive reviews are not indicative of satisfaction with the crafting system at large. It’s exactly like when game companies are putting banners of high ratings from game journalists on their steam pages. I suppose you can fish out some nice words from steam reviews, but…
The only tangible measurement of the game’s success we have access to is online numbers on Steam, and those speak volumes.

On top of that, when those numbers were higher, lots of new people were coming over to this forum to complain about crafting, and very few to praise it.

I wanna know what they are cooking too, because quite frankly, i am running on fumes in terms of caring about Darktide, but this isn’t some sort of pity party for Fatshark, is it?

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47

During the class overhaul and Twins update, you’d get a new thread from a brand spanking new account being made to complain about the crafting every other day at least. Brosgw was overwhelmed lol

Considering the numerous barriers between ‘didn’t like the thing’ and ‘finding the official forums, making a specific account, and posting a new thread just to complain about the thing’, I think that speaks volumes for the amount of annoyance the ‘crafting’ system invokes in people. It’s something like 1% of the player base that hangs out here, and we were STILL getting inundated with ‘why is this so garbage’ threads.

In hindsight, that was probably the last nail in the coffin for the idiots who were trying to defend the old system at Fatshark, since after they dropped the last of the year’s content the next thing they pivoted to was progression (via the penance system) and a promised overhaul of crafting/itemization (still no word on THAT, lol)

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48

I get really tired of the people pushing back against those wanting crafting changes constantly framing it in terms of “those people wanting handouts” without having to work towards it or whatever. It’s such a disingenuous way to frame it and attacks the players giving feedback rather than focus the discussion on the system itself.

…

Bottomline is this: The majority of people wanting a better crafting system aren’t asking to instantly get whatever they want. Rather, they want to be able to predictably work towards something specific. They are not saying “no grind” but instead they want the end product of grinding to be something specific they can expect to achieve rather than just getting more pulls at the slot machine. Is this really such a hard concept for you to understand?

Objectively, we can point to any number of other highly successful games in the same genre (coop FPS) and see that the progression systems are far more predictable. They still require a grind and putting in time, but the rewards are predictable. And where there is more RNG, there is often a way that it can be directly mitigated or circumvented.

As to the “why” a better (less RNG heavy) crafting system would be good - there are some key reasons:

(1) Better on-boarding experience for new players to “catch” up on the power curve. I struggle (and I’m not alone) to get new players to try this game because the crafting system and the amount of time it takes to get a decent build to try out can be long and frustrating. By the time you hit level 30, a better crafting system would leave you with a handful of top level weapons/curious with desirable stat/blessing/perk assignments. This is rarely the case and so it becomes a “wall” that turns people off from wanting to play more.

(2) Build tinkering and game longevity. Waiting to RNG-into a different build option means you can’t easily vary up your gameplay to test out a different build or idea on a whim. You have to grind and hope the RNG god nets you what you want. This system, designed to prolong gameplay, has the opposite effect and is frustrating players and preventing them from feeling like they can experiment with builds. They don’t end up playing more, they just end up leaving entirely.

(3) Min-maxing is always going to be appealing to a segment of a player base in games with progression and builds. Do you need to min-max to be successful in DT? No you don’t. But there are lots of people who enjoy that endeavor regardless, but the current RNG heavy system is a major barrier to their enjoyment of the game. Again, not saying people wouldn’t need to grind for maxed out gear and put in the playtime to get it, but there should be a mechanism for it so a part of the audience isn’t alienated.

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Even when considering recent reviews…

1.) you need to consider negative reviews too… Not just positive lol.

2.) “Neutral” reviews about crafting are as good as negative because neutral is grounds for a rework. They’re indifferent to the system, so change it.

3.) When we search English words, we don’t include all reviews. We have to keep in mind other languages exist we aren’t querying.

4.) There are many other key words that criticize the same systems but with other words than “craft”. (RNG, progression, gear, etc.)

5.) When I take all that into consideration, even restricting all reviews to after the last crafting update… It still doesn’t look good.

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You mean the feedback given from players that is likely the foundation to the current iteration of the crafting system? And quite possibly the itemisation overhaul that is coming?

Yeah Hadron is pretty workable now, part in thanks due to feedback given maybe? Or do you feel we should have been happy when we had to use RerollUntilRarity mod to get the perk we where looking for?

Any chance you want to express your opinion on how Brunts hourly shop work, the ordo docket sink that is rolling up grey items or the daily melk money shop?

It sure doesn’t, fundamentals about gameplay is a big thing. But if a system is not needed or doesn’t really add anything to the game, why does it exist? I guess it comes to no-ones surprise that the item hunt is just a time sink, but a time sink to the point that people dislike it, and players feelings will matter if you want them to play the game.

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51

I have this clown ignored so I can’t see his posts, but I assume it’s just to try and start more shitflinging. That appears to be his M.O., based on what I’ve read of peoples replies to him.

Or he’s just hopelessly addicted to gambling or something. That’d probably be worse.

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I wonder if the sheer volume of people pushing back through posts with citations and thought out arguments and all post likes against OP’s notion will be enough for him to be introspective enough to realize that he might actually be in the wrong on this one.

I doubt it, but I wonder.

Cerebrophage, I don’t know you. What I do know, is that almost every time you start an argument against 90% of the forums over something that tends to be commonly understood and agreed upon by the vast majority of people, there’s a level of obtuseness (yes, I will use that word again) on your end that I cannot understand. The mental gymnastics you put yourself through to just flat refuse to hear any of the sound arguments coming your way tells me that you’re not really in this for some intellectual reason. Seems like you just want to argue or make some point to deal with some internal stuff you’ve got going on. I know I’m speculating here, but what am I supposed to do? You’re not making sense and that’s why people are always arguing against you.

Maybe spend less time beefing with people (because that is what you’re doing, even though you take a patronizingly polite-yet-passive-aggressive tone a lot of the time) online over common sense issues and go outside. It’s almost summer and the perfect time for everyone to literally touch some grass.

@Flawless. The Emperor’s light shines through you as always :saluting_face:

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53

Playing roulette is not crafting.

Crafting is a deliberate action.

Nothing deliberate about an RNG system that punishes players for playing and rewarding them with a spit in the face.

All you have done is written line after line of waffle.

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Let’s look at Darktide relative to its competition.

Darktide recent reviews, sans any major PR crisis.
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Lifetime play rates

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Deep Rock Galactic recent reviews, sans any major PR crisis.
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Lifetime play rates

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L4D2 recent reviews, sans any major PR crisis.
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Lifetime play rates

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PayDay2 recent reviews, sans any major PR crisis.
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Lifetime play rates

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HD2 recent reviews with a major PR crisis.
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Lifetime play rates

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What is it we can draw from this?

Darktide has by far the worst overall review record, consistently over time. The only other game that comes close is HD2, due to a massive singular issue over one weekend, and is otherwise overwhelming better received than Darktide.

Darktide has the worst player retention rate, each of these games except HD2 has a much larger player base now than they did at Launch whereas Darktide’s player base has collapsed only to slightly twitch up once every 6 months. Even with HD2’s decline in recent weeks, it’s drawing 15x as many people as Darktide is on average any given day.

The overwhelmingly vast complaints with Darktide are…crafting and lack of updates. Even the positive recent reviews go out of their way to hate on crafting.
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Trying to make it out like crafting isn’t a giant bleeding sore on the face of this game is some painfully delusional, and relative to it’s competition, Darktide has some real problems that have resulted in a collapsed player community relative to its sales base as demonstrably shown above.

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Molonius, they’re not gonna read all that let’s be real.

Look, people. I responded in here to add a little bit of forum history. OP isn’t going to change his mind and seems to have some sort of pathological need for attention.

Let him go, let the thread die. It’ll take a week of no posting in it and then it’s gone.

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Someone here (and we all know who) doesn’t understand some terms:

  1. Optimization - it’s impossible to optimize in Darktide, becasue you can’t get results to optimize anything. If I want to optimize my melee weapon to kill Ogryns in optimal way or optimal time (Optimal definition: “best or most favourable” ) I need to be able to achieve that. RNG prevents me from doing it. If I need Bless X, perk X and roll X to achieve “best or most favourable” way of killing Ogryn with my melee - then RNG system absolutely eliminates any way for me to optimize anything.

  2. “Some people enjoy challenge” - thing is, that you can always nerf yourself if you prefer. It’s like with Dark Souls and Elden Ring games: if someone wants to optimize they can absolutely make a build that can trivilize any boss in the game (like Bleed builds on Elden Ring release). Or make any other build they think of as they can aquire “parts” for that build without any RNG involved. However, if someone wants to make game as chellenging as possible he has infinite ways to do that: not leveling up, not using armor, not upgrading weapons, using only X weapon, not using Estuses etc. In Darktide you can do only one of these - you can nerf yourself for more challenge - use weapon without Blessings, use Grey weapon, dont take optimal talents etc. However, the other side of spectrum - people who want to make min-max builds, who want to test very specific and very detailed new builds, perk combos, blessing combos etc. are unable to do that due to RNG.

  3. “People want it easy”… ye, and? Did making horrible RNG, locks and slot mechanic gave Darktide success? Nope. Do most people enjoy mindless RNG grind? Nope, which is one of the reasons why MMOs or aRPGs went away from RNG in last 10-15 years more and more. People want to jump in, take stuff they find fun/good and have fun while seeing CLEAR and straight progression in game. Not based on RNG, but just time and effort invested. They don’t need another work or job after they come back from job. “Grinding” and “co-op horde shooter” doesn’t go together, which Fatshark so far should have learnt. Different folks, different strokes. Now of course, you can like it and prefer locks and RNG - but no matter how many time you will say that here - you are minority and 5k average players count for Darktide shows that game just doesn’t work in the long run once players hit RNG/crafting wall. Some masochists stick (like those that like Destiny 2 model) but that’s it.

Fun > grind. Especially nowadays, quoting classic meme “ain’t nobody got time for that”.

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57

You’re being hyperbolic.

This is why a solution other than “remove locks” is needed.

But isnt the act of acquiring and refining more weapons the act of continuous improvement?

Imagine your parents telling you, “Wow you did such a good job, but you couldve did better.” :skull:Bruh thats just general (neutral) feedback. Wouldnt call it positive or negative.

But seriously we gotta stop asking to get the locks removed and look for a different solution.

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He isn’t though. I watched streamers spend 500,000 ordos at brunts to not get what they want.

And then seen them get crap perks and blessings at hadrons with more Sprint speed and blessings that literally don’t work properly or are super niche.

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Ye but those same streamers already have everything else. Plus maybe not ordo/brunts but instead in plasteel for power cycler blessing. By Znonymous.
Personally I never go above 250k to get 370+ and that what, like 7-8 games. I feel like getting it for less like 5 games would be to little. Every 5 games, a fully viable god weapon, jeeeez.

This on the other hand I feel. No way the rng is fair. I feel like Fatshark knows which blessings/perks are garbage and heighten the odds those ones.
mb for weird editing

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I don’t know what else they have or not but there shouldn’t be a way to lose hours of play time with nothing to show for it.

I don’t know if it’s still true or not, but apparently Malice was, by a wide margin, the most played difficulty for awhile. If we assume resource rates for that difficulty and the not as skilled players and their fail rates it’s even more punitive for those folks.

They should in general be more properly balanced and cleaned up. Or removed. Why do I want damage vs pox walkers on my boltgun? Like some of them just don’t even make sense/no one would use seriously.

Honestly the whole thing needs to be ripped up and started over if possible.

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They do have something to show for it tho, it may be 10k vermeil but its gold nonetheless.

I’ve always said and luckily more people are starting to as well, that if you cant survive a difficulty, then they should practice and perfect the easier diff. For people in malice, that would be the best thing to do because uprising is actually practice level stuff. Sedition is intro. Malice is “easy” and so on.

:joy: :joy:

100%. At that rate, no one would say sh!t unless it’s even worse/predatory than it’s predecesor.