The Crafting Memorial; lest we forget

And now we’ve got the point we’re extolling another game repeatedly on FS forums. HD2 is my next purchase on payday, my sons all have it and they’re having an absolute blast with it.

FS with DT have missed the boat. Helldivers on release has features FS will take another year to implement.

A shame, but still - it’s not like FS weren’t told.

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Helldivers 2 which me and my group play for last few days is absolutely awesome. Its past our expectations (and developers who fought day and night without sleep in weekend to increase their servers capacity as they never expected such big success) and developers are in constant communication with players. Also the co-operation aspect is bangers. I recommend it to everyone looking for co-op game. Well, it was nice gentelman. I will check in half-year or year here to see if Fatshark moved their butt finally to save their game or not.

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I hope my blessed Cogitator can run it and Machine Spirit will not be an a-hole about it.
I’ve got processor for minimal and graphic card for max settings…

image

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Incidentally “Fatshark’s Silence is Deafening” is the name of the thread I first posted more than a year ago about these very issues…

In fact: my final thought in the thread was an awfully accurate prediction of the future:

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I heard people on here mention helldivers a bit but didn’t know anything about the franchise, thought I’d check it out. I gotta say, I’m blown away. I’ve posted on these forums a few times about how DT is missing whole components that could power a better gear system. I had in mind a kind of campaign system that could add stakes to missions that could then be converted into gear/blessing drops depending on the level of challenge taken. Had an inchoate idea about tracking imperial/heretic control of regions that could give bonuses by region once a level of imperial control is achieved. Man, helldivers is coming with an already fully fleshed out version of this idea. It’s honestly wild to see. And not to get too political but it’s nice to see competent satire for once too.

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I also play helldivers 2 a lot these days…

… until I realized it slowly but steadily gives me all the weapons I want without RNG shenanigans…

… that’s when I stopped. How could I’ve played a game just for the fun of it!

Ofc I went back to player unfriendly RNG Casinosimulator-Tide immediately!

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This is so demotivating to look back to… I mean the whole 1 year and 2,5 months are if I think about it…

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I’d go for Helldivers, but I’ve got a craving for a proper rendition of WH40K that no other game but Darktide currently satisfies. :frowning: I guess it’s got that going for it.

Now if it only wasn’t an annoying casino/grind’a’thon alongside the…

WAIT A MINUTE!

Perhaps Fatshark are actually geniuses? They actually designed a system that managed to translate the hopelessness of the grimdark WH40k universe into a video game mechanic! I mean, isn’t that how every player feels at some point after engaging with the RNG-laced itemization?

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Yeah, I’ve started rationalizing that Fatshark are actually just RP-ing really effectively. They can’t make any true changes because of the bureaucratic nightmare that is the Administratum of the 40k universe.

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I need someone to explain to me what it is, from the vantage point of a 'Tide fan, that’s so great about HD2?

I’m asking honestly here.

For context, I really don’t like 3rd person games but I’ll tolerate it. That said, watching gameplay videos leaves me really unenthused. I get the sense that there is more dynamic “stuff” to do during the missions (like Deep Rock maybe?) where you are doing some light base building and resource management. I get that there seems to be good variety in the biomes, enemy types, etc. I get that the progression system is infinitely better…

But…

The actual combat mechanics just look like garbage to me. Like barely above MMO level of mechanical play. There just doesn’t appear to be the level of fidelity and nuance to managing attack patterns and pushing and dodging and careful positioning and team cohesion. All the stuff that Darktide does so well in the visceral combat department. HD2 just looks kinda floaty by comparison. Similar to the combat in Deep Rock. It’s tactical and thinky but just doesn’t have the same feedback and sense of immersion at all.

So please, give me an honest take on HD2 and what a poor Darktide reject will like about it :slight_smile:

The weapons feel good to use: visually, whatever you hit will have bits fly off, there’s limb damage (before the enemy dies), the sounds for the weapons sound meaty and distinct and the variants make quite a noticeable difference. The weapons are really fun to use.

There are also weapon crew kits like the recoiless rifle, autocannon and spear (javelin equivalent) that can be reloaded by another teammate.

And later difficulties really teach resource management and encounter avoidance because if you try to bull your way through every fight the enemies will just overwhelm you when eventually you are out of ammo and all your strategems are on cool down.

There’s a lot of decisions to be made in encounters too, enemies have their own roles and usually the smallest and weakest enemies end up being the most dangerous ones, as they can call in reinforcements; there are flankers, stealth units, long range bombardment, area denial, summoners (outside of the reinforcements) and super armoured enemies that have very specific weak spots or require proper armour penetration to deal with. Most of the time, on higher difficulties, you’ll be avoiding patrols as much as possible and if necessary, staging ambushes that try to murder everything in sight so they can’t call in reinforcements. The bugs erupt from underground and the automatons drop in on dropships.

When playing, it’s just as brutal and visceral as Darktide is, but some people see the bright colours, the sometimes goofy player animations and the veneer of satirical super patriotism and write it off, but IMO the goofiness just contrasts and enhances how brutal it actually is on the ground.

It’s a different feeling of being overwhelmed than in Darktide, I feel that Helldivers trades a little depth for a lot of broadness and there’s a strong core of systems in Helldivers that allow for a broader variety of scenarios, almost to the level of immersive sims. Everything seems to interact with everything else in some way.

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Speaking, as a tide fan, why I like HD1 and 2 the simple “pull” is both games have a high skill ceiling with a high capability to not take a lot of damage through careful planning and positioning.

Yes there’s no melee in neither HD1 or 2 (there are some bayonets and such but nothing in depth). But you also had vehicles, mechs, artillery strikes, perks, armor, etc.

Playing on the hardest content (and like tide games) and having yourself and/or team mates with the right builds for dealing with hordes, armor, defenses, etc. Is quite thrilling. Watching someone dancing around enemies and perfectly aligning shots and calling artillery shots and ducking and dodging out of the way feels good. And you’re much more fragile and easily killed in HD.

In most tide games I usually make myself self reliant.

In the hardest content of hell divers I need to rely on my team mates and specialize and mechanics like assisted reload greatly incentivize coordination.

It has a lot of the same clutch moments when everyone’s dead but you, you’re out maneuvering chargers, shooting the stalkers just as the come, throw a last minute strategems squarely on a bike titan before you leap to safety outside the blast zone and able to call in a reinforcement for your team mates.

I would give it ye old 2 hour try on steam and refund if it doesn’t jive with you.

If melee is your main thing or first person you won’t get it. If high skill ceiling and deep combat and builds interest you and white knuckled, sweaty, adrenaline pumping co-op action do, I think Hell divers 2 works. Hell I would be open to playing with people from the forum’s if they’re free weeknights/weekends if they’re on EST.

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you nailed it. HD2 is the legit Imperial Guard hero experience.

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The melee range is sort of filled anyway by the close range weapons that are available.

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You know that feeling of moment-to-moment unscripted chaos, as a product of multiple elements that aren’t in your control and which you try to manage through the tools you’ve put in your box at the mission start?

Certainly, you have a solid concept of squad play? Target identification and priority? Threat management, organized movement etc?

It’s that, but now yank up the friendly fire to 11, add 3-7 button combination stratagems with various effects that have to be activated and deployed with some precision and timing, while under pressure from enemies, doing objectives that have various sequences and requirements and also remove the core concept of melee.

Yeah. The game is a study in Murphy’s Laws made abundantly manifest.
One thing I came to appreciate is the mistake threshold and the TTF (time to f***up). If a mistake occurs among an organized and communicating DT squad, the time it takes for that mistake to spiral into an uncontrollable situation is considerably larger and the other members of the squad have time to react, deploy panic tools, peel and restore cohesion.

In an organized and communicating HD2 squad, one miscommunication, failure to spot a threat or, most commonly, a dropped airstrike, can have instant and spectacular consequences. And these consequences are accounted for by the design of the game, and spun into equally spectacular gameplay opportunities.

One final thing - you know how when four solid, organized, skilled players make a team in VT/DT, and the game feels fun and easy, and everyone is pulling their weight, making the challenge almost relaxing?

HD2 has that, but with a much greater emphasis on reliance on your squad mates, and a little less so on your individual abilities.

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I would love to join you in the future as soon as the rip out or replace that Gameguard mess. Here’s hoping.

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I’m loving HD2, although the 48hr-rotating, gameplay-affecting, real-money shop is very predatory in my opinion (yes, you can farm premium credits, but we’re talking 2hrs+ of dedicated work, not playing the game as intended, at minimum…every other day…or hey just $2USD!). It’s hectic and chaotic and silly and fun. But it bears little resemblance to the gameplay that makes the Tide games great.

Your assessment of the combat mechanics is accurate: there simply isn’t room for much expression or mastery in the moment-to-moment combat other than aim. It’s all gunplay and pokeballs of death/resupply/etc. Very thinky, as you said.

The game does get wild and hairy, but when it does it’s mostly about manipulating the (super crunchy!) dive/physics system and running for your life while punching in combos. Between the squishiness of players, insanity of friendly fire tactical nukes, wide-open maps, and swarms of enemies that must be shot or exploded, it’s quite rare that it gets my adrenaline running and makes me feel like a badass in the way Darktide does. But it’s loads of fun!

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I agree the shop is predatory. It sucks. Some unique armor types and passives too you can’t get anywhere else currently.

“Democracy protects” is too good an armor though to pass up so I don’t really care.

I will also say I much rather HD2s progression system than Darktide. The crafting is much worse than the medal, requisition, Xp system.

I disagree on lack of mastery though. I think it has a similar skill ceiling when you get up in difficulty.

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I don’t mind HD2’s progression, except that 3/16 weapons are locked behind the day one premium battle pass and most of the strategems and weapons feel like sidegrades. The play/build space is much much bigger in DT (in part because of the crafting system), which is more interesting to me.

As for depth of the combat mechanics & skill ceiling: I think those videos do a good job of demonstrating exactly what the combat is like and how deep it goes. These are the absolute hardest missions in the game being solo’d by mostly running away (a tactic that is always available) and avoiding conflict (which is almost always the right play).

I’m loving it, but it’s a very very different beast.

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The steeled veterans aren’t that difficult to get with all the SC you get from mobilize and running missions.

Side grades is exactly how things should be. No gear should be an inherent upgrade. They should all come with their own strengths and weaknesses.

The videos show a style for a solo run. You have to play stealthy, avoid outposts and POIs, and just run for the objectives.

In a 4 person group it’s harder to do that, people seem to always alert but you have more fire power and options to hold them off and cover one another’s reloads.

I do think the shield bubble and rail gun are too good right now. And some want even harder content which may come eventually.

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