Support Power Creep, Sniper Damage and Specials

The only ways for a Packmaster to grab someone are:

  • Bugged spawn e.g. face spawn, silent spawn etc.
  • Inside of horde with elites in the front.
  • Disabler special spam when duo/solo.
  • Player messes up a dodge

In any other context, the pack is killed instantly at any range. Yet specials don’t only spawn during hordes (tbh I’m not sure why this is the case, they can’t do much without the support of massed ambients/hordes, they often have neither and killing them before a horde makes the horde a lot easier).

If packs weren’t 1 shot by sniper ranged weapons, that would mean players that are trapped by a trash only horde with no room to dodge couldn’t just push/stagger horde > switch to a ranged weapon and immediately 1 shot the special closing in on them, adding one more context to the list.

The support damage stacking is becoming power creep. We had 20% from WHC. Now we have 10-15% power from GK and 10% ranged power from OE. This is letting things like Handmaiden with Longbow bodyshotting Packmasters happen without any attack speed sacrifices at all. I’m worried about the new careers, especially if Saltz gets a Warrior Priest who will likely have strong support options.

Provided bugs with specials are fixed:
Personally, I’d like to see a reduction in bodyshot bps (breakpoints) for ranged sniper weapons and for headshot bps to actually require significant property investment on Cata.

Here’s one example of a ranged setup with too strong bps: WHC’s headshot damage and Killing Shot passives affecting distant ranged shots is only one part of what makes the xbow so needlessly strong on him. The other part being that it easily bodyshots Cata packs/ratlings/firerats/assassins (it can do this to packs even at long range with 20% Skaven + 20% Monsters and Enhanced Power or Templar’s Knowledge) and 2 shots the rest with one of the fastest reloads in the game. Doesn’t require Deathknell at all for headshot bps except for distant Bestigors. Don’t even have to sacrifice a single 5% attack speed property to reach these bps. It also gets 10% crit chance on zoom, a massive and easy to headshot with projectile, high accuracy while moving and its bolt is preloaded enabling immediate shots. Its only drawback is having 1 dodge (the longbows have 3).

What are everyone else’s thoughts?

Edit: Here’s a link to a reply containing my suggested changes to fix these issues.
Edit 2: Here’s a link to a reply by Rebel listing the most supported changes

2 Likes

Give this man a developer’s job. Honestly, I think there should be no special or elite bodyshot breakpoints on Cataclysm outside of Handgun (with old reload speed) and very close up Shotgun.

Issue is the different boni we have caused by careers. Because you make breakpoints either unavailable without them in the team or you reduce the needed investment. The matter is complicated.

Actually, different perspective. I would be okay with the breakpoints if ammo would be actually kinda scarce, especially on spam careers like Waystalker of Bounty Hunter.

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GK has a three in five chance to roll the boost, FK grants it to whoever is closest, and Engis has an AoE you can step out off.

I honestly dont even see a point in them most of the time, since relying on those to be available when you need them is just as much of a gamble as counting on GK to roll the wanted quests.

The only reliable one is WHCs WitchHunt, which shares its slight CD with the marking itself so it cant be spammed on multiple targets.

To bodyshot a cata Packmaster with a Longbow on Handmaiden without removing Smiter needs:
WitchHunt, Engi Passive, GK 15%, and two properties
or
WitchHunt, Engi Passive, GK 10%, and three properties

In my eyes its not worth it to setup two to three properties for something that gets screwed when the wrong Duty rolls or you move too far from your Engi.

4 Likes

Thanks, but I’m only copying what others have said. I agree, the Handgun with the old reload speed would be fine for bodyshots, and shotguns are as well since they at least requires some risk on the part of the user.

The main problem is since Conservative Shooter is tied to skill, everyone will say no to any possible nerf it could receive. This results in gameplay where skill lets players break balance and difficulty. It’s important for skill to matter, but it shouldn’t result in things like WHC being superior to BH at nearly everything except boss damage provided the player lands headshots.

Ammo sustain of any kind should be a ranged career specialty, yet it’s found aplenty on melee careers like WHC with BoP, 15-20% crit chance and Scrounger, Merc with Repeater Handgun, 20% crit chance and Scrounger, Handmaiden with a 40% ammo increase talent etc.

Post updated to reflect the full extend of my reasoning. Sorry for not including the proper conclusion in the post.

For Handmaiden you only need WHC tag, GK power quest (10% version), 10% Skaven and Asrai Alacrity+Shifting Seasons or Focused Spirit to reach that breakpoint.

It can be taken pretty far without having to run bad builds, like with Focused Sprit, 15% power GK , Templar’s Knowledge tag (only genuinely bad talent here), 10% Chaos, 10% Skaven and 20% Infantry = Longbow bodyshots specials at close range on Cata likes it’s Legend, without needing OE’s Spotter aura. As GK’s duties are rng (which they shouldn’t be but Fatshark has other ideas) EP and Spotter will make up for getting a different duty, as will Shifting Seasons.

The first above build with DD/SnD lets Handmaiden 1 shot headshot heavy SV, and 1 shot bodyshot Packmasters. With 30% power the cleave starts being pretty decent on DD vs trash.

I like the idea of making breakpoints exclusive to ranged specialists. Could be as simple as giving specials and immunity to 1 shots and giving ranged careers a passive that overrides it.

Witch-Hunt, OE and GK power seems like a probability/niche comp but…

What about making them kind of breakpoints exclusive to ranged careers?
Making the anti special role more exclusive and limited, it might even bump Huntsman’s pickrate.

Seems to be more of an issue that non ranged careers can perform such feats and have reasonable ammo mitigation. (Conservative/Scrounger)

3 Likes

specials just need their healthpools bumped up in cata. Weapon rats especially.

Conservative shooter also probably needs a nerf/change

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All that armour for an enemy with only 54 health that ends up sitting completely still when attacking.

Conservative Shooter could be nerfed directly (like 1 shot return every 2 headshots) or indirectly by making ranged weapons less accurate (like when moving).

Scrounger is overly synergistic with some careers (like WHC) and requires no skill other than hitting the target, but I can’t think of any nerfs that wouldn’t make it ineffective or change it into something completely different.

I mean, I would be all over this. But I have to be realistic. Getting this through the community (and also the developers) is as wishful as me getting Attack Speed or at least Swift Slaying nerfed …

I mean as Velsix has said, Conservative Shooter could be changed to one ammo per two headshots (Consecutive if you want to be evil). Scrounger could be changed by tying it to hit chance of x % instead to crit chance. Because crit is so easily abusable. This would mean that non-ranged careers are not self-sustaining at all. For ranged careers, they could get a passive which doubles the ammo trait effects.

3 Likes

eh I think scrounger is more or less fine

there’s not many careers that can abuse it for an absurd amount of profit, Bounty Hunter is the only one I know that genuinely becomes self sustaining with it. Conservative could just be changed so headshots negate the cost of the next shot, but the buff cannot work off itself so you’re still losing ammo at about 50% of the rate you would otherwise (assuming you’re landing all headshots)

Thing is that’s like…a lot of work

This would also have a nice side effect of making the ammo talents relevant on Merc, WHC and Handmaiden.

Consecutive Headshots would be cruel, but it would also help balance multi shot weapons like BoP due to the recoil it has (as it stands, BoP can be used with Conservative Shooter effectively).

Huntsmen does as well (though he already has infinite ammo to be fair). The issue I see is how much it extends the effective ammo of a ranged weapon like Repeater Handgun on Merc with 20% crit chance. If not truly self sustaining then at least it extends the ammo capacity beyond the distance between most ammo supplies on most maps on Cata, which is all the ammo sustain that’s really needed.

2 Likes

for added context, I say weapon rats are in need of a health buff especially because Cata gun rats in VT1 couldn’t be 1 shot bodyshot with a handgun. It’s a little weird that they’re weaker overall in V2

yea that’s why I didn’t bring him up :stuck_out_tongue:

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Discussable. I would say it “can” get problematic on every career which reaches 20 % or higher crit chance on ranged attacks. So stuff like WHC and Shade are definetely up there for me.

I just want a change that at least non-ranged careers bleed out of ammo more reliably. And that ranged careers have to take at least some consideration and not be able to shoot every single rat on the planet.

3 Likes

Another "Let’s nerf all the good things so that all the bad things can be put to use."

Conservative shooter is properly balanced trait - you can hit head - you can maintain your ammunition. You can’t get more ammunition then you spend with it. Scrounger already nerfed to the ground that it only works on a couple of characters where there is an additional crit chance, and if the weapon has a large enough ammo for it to recover more than 1 cartridge.

And let’s nerf attack speed and swift slaying. Most useful trait and one of the most useful properties. We do not have completely useless traits that need rebalancing for years.

This is V2, not V1. VT1 had a completely different balance, and I don’t understand at all how this could be related to the balance in VT2. If you want balance from the previous game, go play it.

Stop exaggerating. You can’t shoot every rat on this planet outside of a ranged career. When playing at WHC with pistols, you already spend 1-4 bullets on one special, which with an ammo rating of 30 quickly leaves you without ammo. You can of course take a crossbow and shoot in the head with a conservative shooter, but even then you won’t be able to shoot at everything.
And I will remind you that not everyone runs with an ultimate for extra. critical chance, someone runs with the ultimate for 100% crits and, surprise, you no longer have an additional 25% crits to spam from ranged weapons.

Perks for replenishing ammo are taken because other ranged perks are either useless, or they cannot be used due to limited ammo (hunter, barrage) None of the ranged weapons at the moment (having limited ammo, and not a new gnome pistol) are not imbalanced and a response to any threat on your map if you’re not playing on a ranged career.

If you want people in this game to stop shooting because YOU don’t like it, this is only YOUR problem, not a game balance problem. Because many people want variety in the gameplay, and you want to remove it. It must be impossible for the player to kill armor with one shot, it must be impossible for the player to kill a special one with one shot. What’s next, forbid players to knock back the packmaster with an ultimate? He’s so weak, look at his weak monster armor.

4 Likes

It’s kinda hard to properly balance specials while they’re still so bugged. Hookrats and Assassins tend to be a threat due to their bugged nature (especially as a client) moreso than their actual design and stats.

If those bugs were fixed they’d be comparatively easy to deal with and I’d be okay with making them harder to kill on Cata. But fixing the bugs should be the UTMOST PRIORITY before anything else

4 Likes

Which is … um … exactly what I said

I hope that you will one day learn to understand that stuff being to strong actually kills variety. This is not a MY problem. This is a game balance problem. By reducing the ammo sustain on non-ranged careers you actually increase the variety as people have to use all tools available to them and not rely on the overly strong ones. The same happens for other effects, especially if stackable. It is rather easy to see.

I understand you like ranged gameplay. You dont need variety and prefer to being able to shoot endlessy on every career. However, not everyone likes the gameplay to be this shallow.

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Fair but also, special breakpoints are too forgiving in Cata V2 right now

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This is the problem. If you hit heads you never run out of ammo, allowing melee careers to have ranged career levels of ammo sustain with any accurate ranged weapon.

SS could just be 15% attack speed. Then other traits can be brought up, like Parry giving stamina on successful parry, RS might start giving more CD if SS is at 15%, Opportunist already works fine etc.

Adelion said every rat when playing a ranged career.

I’m glad one of the most powerful ultimates in the game has a drawback. Nerfing CS/Scrounger would make the ammo talents relevant on WHC, Merc and Handmaiden.

If Scrounger and Conservative Shooter were weaker, things like Hunter and Barrage could find a place on melee careers which would increases variety.

The problem is ammo just not mattering for a lot of melee builds even on Cata. Ranged careers are less effective than melee careers simply because melee careers can usually already do what they do with more safety and usually better team support (exception to that is RV). WHC is a better BH outside of bosses provided you land headshots. Handmaiden and Shade overshadow Waystalker for everything but Hagbane spam etc. This means the safe option is very frequently the best one.

Packmasters are. They can easily get 1 shot headshot by Merc with Greatsword of all things.

4 Likes

What in your understanding is “too strong” examples, please.

Another "Let’s nerf all the good things so that all the bad things can be put to use."

You cannot use them because they are made for characters with the ability to restore ammo. And that is why there is no variability in the choice of ranged traits - they (barrage, hunter) require a certain amount of ammunition to activate, there is little ammunition, and therefore you will not use them. And if you reduce the amount of ammunition or nerf the traits for receiving ammo, the situation will only get worse.

For this you need to take three specific perks, 10% on skaven, and so that in front of him you do not hit other enemies with your blow. And how does that make this special weak? You still can’t stagger him with any of your melee (Besides the shield) or ranged (besides shotgun) weapons. And most of the time he is covered by other enemies, which most of the time prevents you from killing him(Good luck killing him through stormworms / chaos warriors / any boss.). This is well balanced special, that cannot be called weak at all.

4 Likes

You can use them though. They aren’t bad. Hunter/Barrage on WHC with BoP hits decent breakpoints for both melee and ranged. Same with Repeater Handgun on Merc. The only reason you ‘can’t’ use them is because Scrounger/CS let melee careers extend their the usefulness of their ranged weapons, to the point that they can shoot at every special and some elites to boot.

The fact that I wanted SS to recieve a small nerf alongside the other traits being buffed should tell you that is not what I want at all. Barrage is rarely used even on most ranged careers (main exception is Sienna) and I’d gladly welcome Hunter being changed from proccing on crit to something like ranged kill with a headshot (which would make it very relevant on melee careers, likely too much so honestly).

The Greatsword has high cleave so I’d struggle to miss the Packmaster. A Packmaster surrounded by elites/hordes being so dangerous that a single player cannot reliably handle them without at least one of the following: Some aid from another player, the enemy being weakened at range, a source of stagger (ult, bomb etc) or a specific build tailored for specials would be well balanced in my mind.

Smiter is much better than the other two talents on that row, it should always be picked except in teams with very low horde damage (like if the team had an RV, Waystalker and BH all with the 1h Axe and sniper ranged weapons). Other than that it’s 1 stack of MtM (More the Merrier) and 20 Skaven + 10% Monsters, or just 5 stacks of MtM, Reikland Reaper and 10% Skaven. If it doesn’t 1 shot with the heavy a light bodyshot afterwards will almost certainly kill it.

Otherwise BH with just Assassin + 10 Skaven will 1 shot Packs with the Rapier (Billhook and any weapon with a heavy stab don’t even need Assassin, just 10% Skaven or Monsters). And this is all if the special wasn’t already damaged on its way to the player. If it was, we start getting into territory where weapons like the Falchion will 1 shot them.

The idea of making specials powerful enemies that can survive the first encounter with a player/the team and get multiple chances to try to kill the players is much more interesting to me than the current system we have, which is just spam specials > gap > spam specials.

1 Like

Conservative Shot and Scrounger are perfectly fine talents, unlike the other 4 general ranged talents that are absolutely garbage on 90% of ranged weapons and 80% of all careers. Change them first, then think about nerfing the other two.

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