Because of the TH + Shroudfield + Martyr kill potential i just tried it with a personal build, not exactly what was recommended, but close.
I found out that Stealth in general and especially with a Stun grenade is very good to help up downed teamates.
I like that the sometimes negatively reviewed Ability can be very helpfull and used in a supportive way. Didnt think about it until i tried myself and when i saw someone down had the idea to help him up while stealthed.
Because of the TH + Shroudfield + Martyr kill potential i just tried it with a personal build, not exactly what was recommended, but close.
Yes, this is the main counter argument stealthers like to use.
Unless you are using the shroud right as you charge your attack so you only vanish for half a second you are pretty much rolling the dice on killing a pubby.
Infiltrate can’t really be used this way as effectively (and generally isn’t) which is why I’m more against it than shroud.
Stealth pick ups also don’t generate space so picking someone up in the middle of a mixed horde is kinda worthless if they don’t have something like VoC, or Chorus to immediately pop.
Stealth builds tend to self perpetuate their reasons to play stealth.
“Look at how much my team went down, but I was able to clutch with stealth.”
Oh both stealth skills are absolutely fantastic. But people are people, there will always be those who stereotype and judge for pointless reasons, which is why one should never pay any mind to them at all.
To list a few things about stealth (vet & zelly) in general:
- It’s fantastic for soloing objectives! Since the enemies won’t spawn near you or move near you when stealthed, you usually have far longer than just its timer to decrypt or carry power cells. Especially on T5 HISTG+ pubs many of the objective events can be ridiculously overcrowded, making defending whoever is decrypting very nearly impossible without first spending several minutes clearing and often resulting in casualties and risking wipes. Stealth makes these a non-issue, since your team can simply pick the safest defensive position and hold on while you handle the objectives instead.
- It’s about the best, safest way to rez or rescue teammates
- When it comes to clutching and carrying, stealth makes it 10x easier to survive and make your way to rescuing your team. It’s extremely common for waves of flamers, bombers, disablers and even a boss to spawn between where you are and where your team is being held. Without stealth no matter how good you are, each of those will follow you to the rez site, likely prevent you from rezzing at all, and even in the event that you succeed your team will now be boxed in and on fire with disablers everywhere, often leading to a wipe soon after. So your only choice is to take on everything on your own before rezzing. But with a well timed stealth you’re able to get your team up and fighting before the enemy even gets there, allowing the team to recover and safely fight back using nearby bottlenecks.
- It lets you do ridiculously aggressive plays completely out of position to get the nastiest priority threats out, while always having a way out and survive
- Zellies have a fantastically low CD on it, and doubled with either of the talents that further reduce CD’s it will be available nearly every time you need it
- For vets it’s an absolutely fantastic utility with a great base duration. Low Profile basically extends it to 18s total! With Overwatch on top too, you now have two of those 18s stealths. While it’s less of a combat ability like on zellies for its low offensive bonuses, playing in a way where you only use it as a last resort utility lets you thrive and survive virtually anything that for any other build would be impossible.
All of the points above immensely support your team. So while some players use stealth for solo only, the team oriented ones bring completely unique and massive benefits to the table for everyone.
You finally found out why all the detractors of stealth are total capping all day.
Stealth gives way more opportunities than it is a detriment, but you certainly won’t convince the negative nancies in these forums here, Reddit or Steam.
You are truly one of us now.
i know where you are coming from, it’s not i thought the same or at least was someone who was very much sceptic and critic about stealth, like i’m also very critic about knifes while i played with knife myself for some time.
In the the end i fully agree what Elodie said here
It’s the player who makes use of X or Y bad, you can play stealth or knife or i dont know what has a bad reputation also in a bad egotistical way, but in case of stealth you can use and play it in a supportive way also.
I just found that out and believe the “problem” if ever is allways caused by the attitude of the player to the team his playstyle, not that much the ability or weapon.
Maybe, but not neccessarily there are more stealth, knife players who play in a way that doesnt fit most teams or make everyone else feel the player has an agotistical playstyle or attitude torwards the team, but its a maybe, not for sure.
i agree, i see it different now that i tried more.
something anecdotal why i are or was critic about knife.
Someone aggroed a plague ogryn with a knife and was so fast, nobody could follwo to do damage, wide area, but with some obstacles, even shooting at the plague Ogryn was difficult, because of the fast knife player who also changed direction so often.
It would have been 2 hits with the hammer, instead he pulled the Ogryn 2 minutes through the arena to then went down and the team meanwhile got into big trouble because of used time and mixed horde.
when the knife player was finally down, the Ogryn had still 75% life and was a two hit.
I also suffered from people going into stealth leaving me behind.
BUT i more often suffered from Vets or any other player just using his gun in a tunnelvision way and not even reacting on ping’ing when i was downed or netted just behind or aside him.
Are guns or shooting bad now?
Is knife bad in general?
NO! it’s how it is used and how the player utilizes it.
Same for stealth.
Never listen to stealth haters, they stretching too far, so they can have convenient excuse whenever they die.
There certainly is some cases in which stealth use can be harmful, but they are not so ridiculous and blunt as stealth haters likes to present them.
The reason why stealth can be harmful at all is so called “aggro dump”. And for it to legitimately kill someone, it must be unexpected, sudden or out of view. If someone can’t handle a few extra elites on them for 3 secs or so, its their problem.
So, just don’t aggro dump a bunch of elites behind your teammates backs.
If you have last teammate alive, you might not want to use stealth,
unless you sure that he will be able to deal with the sheer volume of enemies for a brief moment,
it’s not even about suddency at this point.
Never aggro dump bursters or trappers near teammates. Especially bursters, since people tend to forget about them, if they not targeted, so they wont see agro dump and get blown up imidiatley.
In general, proper stealth use will rarely get anyone killed and more often will prevent it by speeding up events, or puling of reses that shouldnt be possible normaly.
I feel a bit bad using it on the zealot because you are the meatshield, but it is very useful to tap objectives the team is out of position for or grabbing a downed ally that was trying to do the same or is in a really bad position. Not really used all that often, but is really nice when you have it. I ran it for a while so that I could hit the flare in the arena when the team couldn’t push for it. Was also useful when the team refused to prioritize gunners so I could get an angle on them during the gunnerpalooza fest in that map.
I think it’s a bit better with the vet and multiple charges though since you aren’t a tank, it also has a slight night vision component, no stun grenades, and a stubby melee weapon.
Can’t speak for others, but I’ve never been dropped by an aggro dump directed my way. I have on the other hand dropped my psyker friend multiple times (sometimes on purpose).
My distaste for stealth is that most people can’t use it responsibly especially for PUGs, and there’s still risk even in the hands of skilled players.
Kind of mean spirited, and the encapsulation of why I think stealth is bad. Every counter argument eventually comes to this one line in some shape or form.
If they can’t handle it it’s their problem. You made your problem theirs then hit them with a “lol, skill issue”
I think it’s fine in premades as I’ve mentioned before in other threads. Fcking over friends on purpose can be part of the fun, but not strangers who don’t consent to that bullshttery.
Name any other combat ability that actually has a potential negative. The rest only have upsides outside of just straight up whiffing and putting them on CD without doing anything with it, but that can be applied to stealth as well.
Even the most responsible Infiltrate user will eventually get someone dropped. Maybe not the case for Shroud.
I’m not going to fully retread what I’ve covered previously.
You can go there if you think my opinions are worth a crap.
Or don’t. People usually have their minds made up from the word go. I at least came to my conclusions through testing even if I am militant about them.
EDIT: Words are hard.
Ok, if you want to throw softballs over the plate: any ability with forced movement has the potential to aggro more enemies and put you out of coherence. I assume we are sticking with “you could just pick another, better skill,” cause you could also simply argue the same thing about the meta weapons that are easier or better to use and have higher DPS. If we are bringing in alternative decisions, every node has potential negatives if you are a min max obsessive like I am.
Bottom line with all of these arguments is that your build directly meshes with your group and their playstyle, and most of the people here play with randoms on higher difficulties. Most of the common complaints are amusing at best. Many of the abilities and nodes are still bugged anyway. It’s not going to stop anyone from yelling into the void at the people they just played with on Xbox streaming the game at 30 fps from the cloud for free.
Hitting S to stop ogryn charge, or FotF from aggroing more ambient enemies to enjoy the amazing attack speed steroid is hardly a risky ability.
Not really “a softball over the plate” issue either when opportunity cost is one of the main arguments against stealth.
I want stealth to not create sudden amnesia in enemies, and they should keep attacking your last known location for a least a couple of seconds.
A good global stealth callout like Shade had in Vt2 would also be nice.
tunnelvision gun usage in general
with relentless executioners stance in special.
this ability ask to stay in tunnelvision.
Subjective at best.
I’ve not had that issue. Granted its partly because of mods.
Entertaining that more deeply though we can argue that it only gets the user killed not someone else. When you make the build, and choose that ability you accept the risks it imparts, and you onboard the consequences onto yourself.
Stealth makes you onboard the risks onto others.
I think that being able to deal with 4 elites instead of 2 for a short period of time is not a big deal, especially because its not happening for nothing. It might be a discovery for some, but people don’t use stealth just to sit in it, doing nothing.
Stealth is either used offensively or defensively.
Case when you make your problem someone else’s problem,
is only happening in defensive use. which usually consists of 2 things: resing/rescuing and doing objective. And only the first one is having trade off:
Is it worth leaving your team as 2 or 1 for a brief moment to be back as 3 or 4, For the cost of others doing a bit more dodging and blocking? I wouldn’t always say yes if i am a stealth user,
but i certainly will always say yes if someone else is stealth user.
I could probably find some but i am not going to, this discussion is about stealth itself, not optimal setups in general.
And i don’t actually think that stealth is good right now, or better tha other abilities, because it doesn’t allow you to pass through enemies yet, and some other stuff.
But one thing that stealth can do and others don’t is fast and safe objective completion.
I personally value stealth for it the most.
Depends if they’re running the 90% threat infiltrate node.
I already made the case for Shroudfield actually being somewhat ok because good use of it often just involves vanishing only for half a second to 2 seconds at most.
My main issue is:
Defensive use. Sometimes you just have to use it that way.
A guaranteed down on yourself is still ultimately worse than a potential one (this is an opening/weakness in my argument against stealth btw so use that as you will), but:
It leads back to this. Opportunity cost.
That situation where you were about to get downed either just leads to your down, and teammates stay safe as down targets tend to attract a weirdly high amount of aggro, or you pop VoC/Chorus/FotF etc etc and survive that way with zero inherent negatives.
Stealth is unrivaled in quick hacking, but I still prefer a dome, or an ogryn for that.
I personally wish stealth was better. In fact my favorite archetypes are casty dudes, and sneaky bois. I can’t really partake of the latter that in these games, and the way I came to the conclusions I did was basically already arguing with myself about why I COULD use stealth, but never really could give myself a truly good reason to outweigh the negatives.
EDIT: Words are hard lately.
like with shroudfield (cant speak for Infiltrate, never used until)
like said it’s more the utilization of the player than the ability itself.
I just had 3 Crushers coming at me and Psyker, i stealthed and hammered them before they reached the psyker, who helped with smite.
If i would have vanished and leave him alone, he may would have get downed, but this is like i said not the ability, but players skill or attitude and usage of the ability.
I was able to kill them much quicker because of the damage boost and backstabbing.
And i knew the Psyker had his CC, so great combination imho.
if i choose to yes, but again if i dont choose to and use it to help and support it provides a lot of potential in dangerous situations.
The example with relentless executioners stance is similar.
Teammate in danger from mixed horde, vet goes into said stance and starts shooting while not realizing his mate got down and he would better have switched to melee use a grenade or VoC (what he cannot because of ES), he may want to prolong the stance and shoots more elites instead to help his downed mate up who then dies to poxwalker damage the Veteran refuse/ ignores to shoot.
Seen many times and done myself accidently, because the stance ask you to prioritize elites and specialists.
I dont want to say people to this on purpose or because they are bad, it happened to myself, i did it myself (Vet is my least played class only level 61) by accident/ unintentionally because of a lack of experience or skill.
edit: i like your posts mostly, please know i dont want to get into a heated diskusion or convince you. I fully respect your PoV and understand it!!!
i want to add, that it maybe is helpfull for the team to get away and prevetn going down, to then comback and fight instead to go down and make others taking risks to help you up.
This is for sure the most problematic use, because now you get away and the teammate gets aggro dumped and downed because you safed your life.
double edged sword and very situational.
My main issue with Stealth in this game, is that you still have collision.
I’ve been grabbed by Mutants far too many times while invisible.
I’ve been trapped by enemies moving around me way too many times (then die because you are trapped in hyperdensity)
i just learned that yesterday, thinking the mutie wont see and grab me.
same for hyperdensity.
Only char/ ability to deal with this is Ogryn Idnomitable afaik
edit: ok VoC and Chorus is also helpfull
I appreciate your subjective experience, but similar situations could be also defused with either one of the other abilities on Zealot.
I also stay relatively general because extremely specific scenarios can always be concocted to make an argument stronger than it actually is through sheer quantity of examples.
I could make something like MG XII seem better than the MK V Columnus. This is objectively false, but I can come up with many very specific, but - and this is important RARE scenarios where MG XII is stronger.
Refer to the paragraph above.
I’d like to add that while you are stealthing and picking up the downed teammate you also increase the chances the rest of your still not-downed teammates also get murdered.
Which is unfortunately yet another reason I discovered for why stealth is bad (the exemption being the last person standing of course).
It’s not heated.
There’s been only one case where I’ve had a heated argument with someone on this forum, and its because they started resorting to ad hominems while also being generally condescending.
If anything I should be the one apologizing since to some it might seem like I’m attacking their playstyle…which is hard to argue against.
I don’t have a good argument for why I’m not. I simply don’t feel like I am, and I’m only giving my reasons for not playing it myself at the end of the day while kind of hoping someone convinces me by disproving my arguments so that I can finally make my stealthy boi.
I think that using stealth just to avoid enevidibale crushers overhead or disablers grab is not fully defensive, since you can get offensive right after you saved your self and you deffinitivly should, because all stelth related bonuses are triggerde after leaving stealth, including toughness regen
and damage reduction. So there is no reasone to continiusley sit in stealth in that case.
I personally dont think that negatives are that bad, i usually never even notice them when i play with stealth users. But i find that apparent positives regarding damage is certainly lacking in darktide compared to vermintide.
I would give conc pot to shade as soon as i find it, but not stealth zealot.
I would gladly kite those 6 CW’S while shade dismembering the boss, but stealth zealot will just hit a little bit harder and thats it (i might be wrong here, since i play with evis excusivley).