The Invisible Conversation - Player Experience - The Genre Itself

[kqgee]

TLDR: FS Please stop creating Aggro-Dump abilities.

As the title suggests this topic will revolve around the players ability to go invisible and the fundamental decision by Fatshark to incorporate “invisibility or stealth” into a team-based survivability experience.

This concept of “invisibility” will tie threads from the perspective of both players and also the genre itself, such as Left4Dead’s influence on Darktide.

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1. A player using Invisible.

In Darktide, there are only 2 classes that can benefit from the keyword Invisible. Veteran using Infiltrate and Zealot using Shroudfield.

These ablities in turn are described as follows:

Zealot : Enter Stealth for 5 seconds and (basically) do more dmg when attacking.
Veteran: Enter Stealth for 8 seconds, Attacking makes you leave Stealth.

DETRACTION***************************************
keyword. Stealth.
***FALSE ACCUSATION REDIRECT QUERY.

What happens in Stealth?

CONCLUSION*****************************************

Aggro-Dump.

Define parameters - keyword - Aggro-Dump.

010101010100101010101001010101010101001010010101001001010101010010101010010100100101010101010010101010100101010101010100101001010100100101010101001010111000

DETERMINATION******

Enemies attacking an “invisible” player are turned away, lose aggression, stop pursuing, creating Stealth and “dumped” onto other teamates.

SYNOPSIS : Stealth leads to Aggro-Dump which leads to Bad Teamplay

REBUTTLE- How is this bad teamplay? I, as a Stealth user, am surviving therefore extending the life of the game/team. By using Stealth I can Perform tasks, such as revive. This is a non-issue.

REFUTATION- These task wouldnt be necessary if you had an ability to use instead of Stealth. The core mechanic behind “stealthing” is, in turn, adversely effecting teamates.

FINAL CONFUTATION- The ability to Stealth while shielding from true evil is an expression of true faith therefore the God-Emperor protects.

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2. A Player not utilizing Stealth.

In Darktide, 2 classes do not have access to the previous pronounced protection from the God-Emperor, these two classes are Ogryn and Psyker. (Also consider every other class not utilizing Stealth)

Stealth creates Aggro-Dump, INQUIRY DEVOLUTION … REDACTED…REDACTED…

DIGESTION*************************************

keyword. Aggro-Dump

***FALSE ACCUSATION REDIRECT QUERY.

What really happens during Aggro-Dump?

Defining parameters - keyword - Aggro-Dump.

010101010100101010101001010101010101001010010101001001010101010010101010010100100101010101010010101010100101010101010100101001010100100101010101001010111000

DETERMINATION******

Enemies attacking an “invisible” player are turned away, lose aggression, stop pursuing, creating Stealth and “dumped” onto other teamates.

SYNOPSIS : A Player not utilizing aggro-dump will therefore be aggro-dumped upon.

CONCLUSION*****************************************

The benefit from stealthing effecting teamates creates a disproportionate experience upon a team based survivable experience.

3. The Spirit and its Successor.

In Darktide, the developers have created a spiritual successor from Left4Dead, (including Vermintide). A lot of the specials, bosses, insights, mechanics, abilities, modes, concepts, ideas, gameplay and “feel” of the genre had been taken from that series.

Postscript Addendum
These fundimental gameplay nods have in-turn created a very fun and replayable experience. For that we thank you FatShark.

COPENDIUM***************************************
keyword. Spiritual Successor.

***FALSE ACCUSATION REDIRECTED QUERY.

Where does Stealth come from?

CONCLUSION*****************************************
010101010100101010101001010101010101001010010101001001010101010010101010010100100101010101010010101010100101010101010100101001010100100101010101001010111000

010101010100101010101001010101010101001010010101001001010101010010101010010100100101010101010010101010100101010101010100101001010100100101010101001010111000

SYNOPSIS : Stealth is a creation from Fatshark, therefore not related to the Spirit of L4D.

REBUTTLE- Why does this matter, whats the point, who cares?

REFUTATION- L4D series never had teammates Aggro-Dump each other, creating a “packet-loss” scenerio. This packet-loss creates a negative catchfall, get out of jail, for players unable to keep up with their own endevours.

FINAL CONFUTATION- The ability to Stealth while shielding from true evil is an expression of true faith therefore the God-Emperor protects.

CONCLUSION- According to the Genre’s final theory, as we approach the Big Bang, the laws of physics themselves begin to fade, highlighting their emergence rather than preexistence. This theory implies that the origins of physical laws lie within a holographic view.

P.S.FINAL CONCLUSION - FS Please stop creating Aggro-Dump abilities.

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Thank you for taking time to read. I hope you got some enjoyment out of this experiement, as I know I did.

All in all, what do you think? Does Stealth create a paradox of classes? Let FS know Below (not me, Im just an Ogryn main)

• Thanks!

[Amelia]

hope shroudfield gets removed and replaced with a new ult for zealot.
too way much stealthoids depending upon on it + it can break the spawns if rushing with it easily

[Khorne_Dawg]

@Amelia

hope shroudfield gets removed and replaced with a new ult for zealot.

I’d gladly accept Animosity or Locked and Loaded from Vermintide 2 in its place, just saying.

[JDLS]

Stealth in general is neat on paper and fine for lower difficulties, but honestly I think a large amount of “green circle chasing” behavior people complain about is just poorly played stealth.

The main thing I don’t like is that stealth doesn’t allow you to do anything you cant already do with different types of abilities, just worse and with less skill, it really feels like it has no place on a team in darktide. Like both a charge and stealth zealot can go over there and kill those gunners or bombers, the difference is a charge zealot runs forward drawing pressure to themselves and leading enemies away from the team while they do so, a stealth zealot just presses F and says “screw the team” for a solid minute or two while they do whatever they are doing.

[CopperBack1]

I kinda want a sneaky ogryn though especially after seeing how effective crushers are at it.

But ya stealth just a transfer from V2 and if you leave it fast aggro comes rushing back onto you.

It also serves as an excellent tool for revives or event teamplay.

The worst aggro dump was luckily dropped range Veterans camo. Match long aggro dumping @.@

Yet I wouldn’t mind replacements they tend to be the weaker choices to me and common utility to either charge or shout

[Unavailable]

I could see what they where going for with stealth but they screwed it up. If the aggro worked differently maybe it wouldn’t be so bad. For instance if stealth is used and there are no other members of the strike team nearby enemies go back to patrol state instead of locking on to the next nearest team member no matter where they are at the time.

The fact stealth has existed in this state for so long and aggravated so many people without any word of a change is just standard fatshark heh. They need to rework or remove it imo

[weeping.moon]

Enemies need counterplay mechanics, for example:

Snipers and scab gunners should be able to see invisible players cause they have prey sense goggles or something. Dogs should be able to smell your stinky ass aswell

And something like ability to channeling howl and summon lesser dogs. Go seek and destroy.

Some dreg witch that casts area/places totem them stops any toughness regeneration to counter VoC, for example.

Scab psyker casts some clouds of rot flies that buffs enemis against ranged damage

Etc.

Enemies need mechanics to increase target priority, deccision making and fast adaptivity aspects for more ingaging, interesting and adrenaline pumping gameplay.

But, not gonna happen. Flamers tanks can explode is the maximum.

[Amelia]

@weeping.moon

Flamers tanks can explode is the maximum.

this is something it should been at day one imo, because it was something available in VT2 too
it kinda felt unfinished in fact in DT, but better later than never. also it there should be some overhaul with AI to make enemies more different with more mechanics also. and new enemies stormfiend boss (tox ogryn) ranged boss either with flames or bullets

[Amelia]

one day…

[Amelia]

yes, i’d prefer that too, it would be good. plus possibly changing loner aura too
i think also reusing invisibility again on zealot, when veteran has already too, wasn’t the best. because 2 ults that are very similar.

despite in vt2 having multiple characters having their own invisibility ability either through ults or passives, i think in DT maybe only veteran should had it. but honestly i don’t even see that much veterans running invisibility either. i see lot of exec or voc because are ults that are way fun to play. even as zealot many playing with dash because way fun than using invis.

dash at least is playing the game, lot of zealots use invis true soloing stuff and calling the run a true solo xd when they disabled all enemies mechanics and all

realistically i doubt they will ever replace these ults sadly, since lines are grounded to these abilities so the best would be rework them maybe. or reworking how AI interacts with invisible players. if i reckon, when aggro dumping AI in vt2, once player would returned visible, enemies would prioritized back the invisible player rather than going to the teammates, but not too sure cause been a while i dont play vt2. and in dt i’m not even a fan of invis so im not sure either. but they should make that if players drop aggro, and the player returns visible, the enemies should prioritize back to the player

[weeping.moon]

@Amelia

i think in DT maybe only veteran should had it

Imo Vet should have invisibility through the smoke nades (like Bardin ranger). Right branch is supposed to be commando/breacher archetype it seems, like some Catachan bozo. Infiltrate is a weird ultimate for that.

Maybe even smoke nades should become ultimate and provide aoe but extremely short duration invis or you can spec it that way to work like the vanishishing bomb in The Finals. So it would be a reposition/escape or revive tool. And for the 3rd nade type should be something else - melta charge (that works like c4 in any game with manual detonator) or mines.

With Zealot it’s Death Cult assassin inspired archetype on the right (and also Shade equivalent) so stealth makes sense there.

@Amelia

aggro dumping AI

Both prioritized when invis by enemies that counter or after invis would be horrible, some enemies just should behave regulary, like invis isn’t a thing, no AI gimmicks. Enemies with high tech equipment, animals and demons is what makes sense and intuitive to behave like that.

[Unavailable]

hm they could have them do somthing like old metal gear solid where they run about slighly faster looking for the person.

Metal Gear Solid: Alert (!)

[Khorne_Dawg]

@weeping.moon

Both prioritized when invis by enemies that counter or after invis would be horrible, some enemies just should behave regulary, like invis isn’t a thing, no AI gimmicks. Enemies with high tech equipment, animals and demons is what makes sense and intuitive to behave like that.

Daemonhosts already completely ignore Stealth Abilities, just to name an example.

[Amelia]

oh yea true

[Hextechnician]

Shroudfield based on its name alone sounds like it should have been Ranger Bardin’s ult again, but wasn’t.

edit - Just made myself laugh, anyone remember VT2 on release had that one voiceline bug? It would use the host’s most recent career choices for each hero when using the ultimate voicelines even for other players.

Slayer Bardin yeets himself at the horde while whispering “An old ranger trick”

[weeping.moon]

Yeah, but there is another thing with Fatshark, they changed it to stop trolling and griefing. But new players probably don’t expect for DH to ignore invis, what Fatshark should do is to have proper tooltips that say wich enemy can’t be affected by somethig.

Especially if one day there will be some more counters in the game like the one with DH. There are planty variants how to make WH40k lore to support and inspire game rules and mechanics so it all will make sense, the only problem is FS don’t like to add descriptions and explanations.

And sometimes the difference between bullshittery and a good game is rules being explained.

[Ryshek]

aggro dumping was terrible before when it was the veteran’s camouflage ability… and I still hate it D=

[kqgee]

@weeping.moon

Snipers and scab gunners should be able to see invisible players cause they have prey sense goggles or something. Dogs should be able to smell your stinky ass aswell

And something like ability to channeling howl and summon lesser dogs. Go seek and destroy.

Love these ideas! A dogs ears perking up, changing targets and looking at you if you proc stealth would be terrifying.

I agree with sniper, its still a giant red laser that can track you.

[Unavailable]

camo didnt work the same way… the vet with camo didnt draw aggro at all the vet with invisibility can get aggro kite it about a bit then press “the button” and hey presto its dumped on you.

Hence the expression “aggro dump”

Camo was better than stealth at least it let you play a marksman build stealth just lets you be a annoying

[MixedLetters]

@Amelia

i see lot of exec or voc because are ults that are way fun to play. even as zealot many playing with dash because way fun than using invis.

Tbf, this is also due to these abilities just being in strictly better spots on the tree, and often saving numerous amounts of points if taken over the stealth options. Infiltrate forces a random crit node and either an extra grenade or I hope my teammates are bad talent, Shroudfield forces a not often to useful on a Zealot stamina node, then also asks the Zealot to invest a further 3 talent points into their ability instead of just two with FotF. So a LOT more interesting builds can often be made with the other abilities on both characters due to that reason (even if there are a few good ones that use them as well).

At the end of the day (to now talk about the wider point) I think stealth is cool, but it’s implementation is almost always off within most games that include it. Aggro management is like, theee name of the game within horde games, and having one of your teammates just drop off the map and dump all their aggro on the rest of the team isn’t that fantastic, even if the fantasy is an enjoyable one (at least I think so).

To that end, I feel some of the ‘better’ ways I see stealth implemented (since I don’t see them getting completely removed/a new ability put in their place any time soon), usually consists of aggro ‘sticking on the point they disappeared’ for a little bit after the fact. The enemy (especially these infested nurgle spawn) shouldn’t just immediately re-target themselves onto friendlies when an ally stealth’s, but should ‘be confused’ and claw at/shoot at the spot the ally vanished from. Then as others have said either go back to a resting state (if the ally doesn’t re-engage/runs away out of their aggro range), re-engage on allies within it’s aggro range (allowing said invis individual to get the back stabs/back hits they are going for) only after a few seconds of confusion, or re-engage the invis individual if they pop out within their aggro range.

I feel ‘holding this memory’ would make the abilities both feel a lot less ‘free’ (since it’s no longer a ‘shut off the enemy button’), while also playing into the fact that this is a team based game, and aggro should still be held at least a little bit by a team mate that ghosted right in the middle of combat. As without that, it does just kinda feel like a ‘good luck team mates’ button, which works at least slightly when it comes to Infiltrate cause at least that has the decency of suppressing/stunning everything when you pop out. But Zealots just drop all the aggro and at best kill a few things upon exiting, which is nice, but would be nicer if the enemies that hated them just turned to look at them again too (and would make the DR and toughness gen make a good bit more sense too).

(Low Profile I think would then counteract this change at the cost of a talent point, or if it feels like this functionality should be removed entirely, then just remove that talent pip to encourage the use of Hunters Resolve instead, given that’s honestly more often than not a better ‘team play’ talent anyway).