The point of the skills is to use the distance, particularly with the ogryn. Random groups and not knowing your teams skill set will always outweigh even the best meta skill selection anyway. Does the vet have regenerating grenades? Pretty critical question if they are running krak.
Normally I’d just mention that, if you play with randoms while discussing the minutiae of skill balance, well.
Every time someone goes down I’m going to wonder if that could have been avoided with an overshield whether through the attrition it negates, or more directly the sniper shots/bursters, and overheads its lets them tank.
That’s quite a big negative.
As for Zealot? FotF let’s me continuously hard dive gunner packs, and keeping them on me which is great because Zealot kills those for free at least as my dagger build.
I don’t ever want to drop aggro. So if I use Shroud, and I see gunners kill a teammate then that’s not even up for debate in my mind. I basically killed them.
Sorry, I’m not entirely sure what you are getting at here.
Sometimes you can just use FotF, or Ogryn charge as a short range stun + attack speed steroid, and that’s perfectly fine. I understand sometimes you want to barrel everything over as well. That’s also fine. It’s all context based.
There are skills that have a much broader reaching effect that are going to be much better regardless of their context.
VoC a skill I keep bringing up has something that will be useful regardless of any heavy combat scenario.
In no case is an Overshield scoffed at, or unwelcome.
FotF as another example is a free crit + stagger + 8 seconds of a whopping 20% more attack speed.
Crazy.
Generically amazing.
Never bad.
Cured my erectile dysfunction, etc
Though I am reticent to use it on certain narrow bridges as the cancel has a bit of a delay.
Not following here either. Are we making bad builds on purpose for something, or making a point about lower skill players?
I build to make my team as strong as possible. I can get bots through regular damnation without much trouble on my build tests (unless they are bad builds).
Players of lower experience shouldn’t be too much of a hassle assuming they aren’t actively trying to starve me of resources (ammo).
Disappointed that we disagree on pretty much every point, but it is what it is. VoC will not save you if the team doesn’t take advantage of it. If the zealot keeps rushing ahead out of coherence it’s a problem, if the team splits up, cloak can help.
That’s how it goes man. Not everyone is the same. Would be boring if we were.
The threshold for this is much much lower. Being within coherency of me (at least me specifically) is quite easy. I will often chase people down to put p̶e̶e̶ overshield on them anyways.
It is one of the more dangerous skills to be bad at, I will give you that.
Its also one of the more rewarding skills to be good at.
I am personally not fan of that attitude, but i am not gonna call it bad or wrong.
I think that if you que for the x difficulty, you should be self sufficient enough for it and not rely on some vet spamming VoC.
You might have saved someone from snipers shot, but he was supposed to dodge it in the first place.
The thing is, the fact that the teams are dismantled every match and thrown into a pseudo mmo lobby is a bigger issue for preserving a coherent team and accountability for performance than anything else in the game. Throw in having relatively few cosmetics to differentiate look and absolutely no after match stats, and the devs are willfully doing nothing to encourage teamwork. Can’t even monitor your own performance or practice solo without mods. Balancing issues and skill choices are trumped by fundamental design decisions that fail to bring the team together every time. Adding coherency was a truly great idea, but not at the expense of everything else.
If you play with someone two or three times, you are more likely to use voice chat. This game encourages none of it.
Well this falls out of scope of stealth being a problematic skill (at least for me). Doesn’t change that hedging your bets against a flawed system is still a good choice, but other than that:
There’s basically nothing I disagree with here.
I want an official scoreboard. It can be simplified, and only accessible after matches are done to avoid the toxicity that I’ve never seen.
There needs to be a reason to tag sh*t more often in general. Like a 5% baseline damage boost. Not something super big, but players should be encouraged to use it.
The voice chat I never engage with and have it muted, but I’ve had unusually bad luck with mic spammers.
Overall though my time in game has been extremely wholesome. It’s not uncommon in the slightest for me to get a strike team merge request.
If you go out of your way to be a team player people tend to follow suit.
“Be the unhinged shouting maniac you want to see in your games.” -Nuclear Ghandi
Fair enough. I’ve been accused of being a helicopter mom by both friends, and family.
All of this despite being neither a mom, or woman.
I might feel overly responsible for the well being of…well everyone. It tends to be a great source of anxiety.
BUT IN FAIRNESS I COULD HAVE STOPPED THE BOO BOO FROM THE SNIPEY WIPEY, OK?
Well said! 
OK! BUT MY BOO BOO’S ARE USUALLY DYING TO SECOND SHOT ANYWAYS.
BUT THEIW HELFFBAW HAS AN OUCHIE WOWCH-
Let’s stop this madness before it gets out hand.
Tbh that’s no different from anything else in the game. Between oggies who block the sight and shots of their team, people who ignore netted or doggoed teammates, pushing into the next area during a boss or other dangerous fight aggroing more than the team can handle, hogging resources, not paying attention and actually using said resources when they should, or even just weapons and builds that knock everything around making the life of precision or cleave builds completely unbearable… the game has no shortage of ways to do things irresponsibly.
That’s just a part of how coop works. For good choices to mean something, bad ones must be possible too.
I don’t claim to be an expert on this as I’ve made no genuine attempts at studying stealthers and the consequences of using it. But I’ve never once noticed any adverse effect on myself when teammates used stealth, nor on anyone else when I have. I’m going to go into a bit of (admittedly) theorycrafting for this:
When you’re the first to enter a room, you’ll ofc get shot first. But this will never cause even close to every single enemy to fixate on you alone, if your team is even remotely close. Similarly if you’re the last one to enter, plenty of enemies will be shooting at you even before you’re even in sight, with tons of others literally ignoring your team as they make their way through them to hit you in particular. With ofc more and more spawning around and behind you on top. The game is clearly designed to divide the aggro so no-one ever goes unnoticed.
So what really happens when someone uses stealth is roughly this: All enemies currently attacking the stealther finish their attacks, take a momentary break, and then switch aggro. Those who were close but not attacking switch aggro sooner. This has a staggered effect where each enemy depending on attack speed & phase, whether they were attacking at all, distance etc. switches focus at a different time, as opposed to all at once. When the enemies have switched focus, they must now reposition to line their shots or get into melee range of their next target. Yet they will not fixate on one particular teammate, but rather divide their attention between the remaining 3.
Since more enemies keep spawning all the time anyway, and many of them switch focus throughout the fight due to the team’s changing relative distances, CC or dmg, in practice the effects of stealth are rarely even noticeable at all. At worst, it’s about the same as someone going down or dying, where the biggest effect is just having 1 less teammate dealing dmg or resisting disablers.
So I would argue that the aggro dump scenario is far less frequent and less dangerous even when it happens than many seem to think. But to answer which other ults similarly do have potential downsides:
The above may seem like grasphing for straws but they are not. Those are real issues that affect my gameplay virtually all the time. I’m not saying it’s wrong, or that the ults themselves suck or do more harm than good however. Not at all. I’m simply pointing out that an ult having some unintended downsides the severity of which depend on timing and luck, are nothing unique to stealth.
I honestly, truly, believe that stealth doesn’t deserve a fraction of the hate it gets. I’ve barely even used it myself since the lure of something new and different wore off (last time was prolly 1-2 weeks ago), so I’m not saying this for my own sake. I’m sorry but what I believe is going on here, is just classic human nature. It’s the same effect you see with scoreboards in PvP games, where after every loss you have someone blaming whoever has the lowest numbers on that scoreboard just because it’s easy. When things don’t go as planned, people get frustrated and angry, and most people tend to look for something to blame that isn’t themselves. So they go for the easy targets. Stealth is that easy target.
By this logic you could easily just say I’m completely against low skilled players existing. Not a really fair line of logic to follow at all.
You can only choose to practice, and get better. Being good enough to play at a high level is not really a full on choice like choosing a combat ability on the talent tree.
There’s an already asymmetrical pressure grid in terms of aggro tables on the team. Some people can handle it better than others. You stealth you turn that 4 point grid into a 3 point grid. There is always an extremely non-negligible chance it causes a down, or at least damage that can lead to one later.
It’s the same reason why I think this point:
Is also kind of moot. On the face of it yes you can absolutely get some very easy clutch pick ups, but you are also turning a 3 man team into a temporary duo with all the aggro.
A regular pick up the aggro is still split 3 ways, and this is not even mentioning the alternate space making abilities that would go into that pick up assuming its possible.
Either way stealth, or no stealth its a big gamble for the team. Point being it’s not even that much of an upside despite it being one of the stronger arguments for stealth.
You, and someone else have now tried to make the dome argument. I’ve not heard it cause issues for visibility before I brought up the argument that there’s no negative to non stealth abilities.
I know it’s only anecdotal, but I’ve have had zero issues with it ever blocking my line of sight.
The rest of the points such as ogryn charge is hell of a reach. Things that are knocked down are free kills. Maybe you waste more ammo if you happen to be shooting them, but still hardly a major downside for the safety it provides.
Scrier’s shouldn’t be used with any blitzes, or staves in mind. It’s a gunpsyker build. You will never blow up with it used in such a way which is also the optimal way.
DD can be stacked up with basically no thought. Assail is busted op though, and so is MK V. Maybe without those I can sorta see your point. Doubt assail is getting another nerf though.
Chorus is the same point as ogryn except I’m not sure I’ve ever had issues killing stuff staggered by it. You can still headshot stuff just fine, and you get the biggest overshield in the game. The real downside to chorus is that it has inverse skill scaling on the zealot. The better you are the worse that ability gets because you are self CCing and relying on teammates really hard, but is otherwise an absolutely insane ability capable of keeping the entire team safe.
k
I don’t lose matches with 4 players. I’ve only lost duos in the past 30 days, or so (probably more) because I was testing builds that we’re iffy with a friend, and I’m not comfortable taking them into games with strangers.
Also considering how I’ve been saying that potential losses are on me if I don’t perform well I think this:
Is a bit of a bad faith move if you are applying that to me. I’m not saying you necessarily are, but since you are replying to me it feels like you could be.
Stealth is not some easy target for me. It has not caused losses for me. I simply think me randomly saying “THINK FAST STUPID” every time I hit F (or is Q for people I don’t remember default binds) is ultimately still a d*ck move until the base mechanics get reworked.
I mainly argue against it especially on these forums because I believe most of the people here who care enough in the first place to be forum regulars, and argue about a game this in depth are probably people capable of doing hypercarries ensuring a good time for the lesser experienced. Stealth is antithetical to that since all you’ll end up doing is getting them killed, and letting them watch you solo the game.
While you can argue its not your job my fervor for this particular topic comes from the fact that the reason I even got this into games as hard as I did was because of a kind (very skilled) stranger in a Quake lobby over 20 years ago now who taught me the ropes after I got my ass handed to me.
The game can be overwhelming. Being a stealther doesn’t help those who are already struggling.
Throwing people into a pool with their clothes on does not count as a sink or swim moment before anyone tries that angle.
Stealth certainly can be used to help clutch rez’s and the like. The problem is that you’ll get more frequent and consistent clutch use out of Chorus or VoC on that count by far for reasons already stated in this thread, and most players running a Stealth build aren’t really looking out for the clutch rez scenario in my personal play experience. I see runs saved by Chorus and Voice of Command on the regular, I can’t recall the last time I saw a run saved by a Stealth build in my own play, though I’ve seen the agro dump definitely sink some.
Stealth builds have some cool teamplay potential utility, but the easiest and most obvious ways to use these tools are generally not conducive to that utility, and such builds end up with the awkward reputation they currently have as a result.
tbf i only use it for 2 days, but no one got downed because i used Shroudfiled.
Again, not talking about Infiltrate, because not knowing much about it.
Shroud is 3s for most builds and used to backstab a Crusher, Bullwark or Monstrosities to do maximum damage or to help someone up or to operate a missionterminal.
Its max time is 6s and Infiltrate is 8s basicly. So completely different aproach.
Imho Infiltrate is to make a Veteran have no aggro to shoot undistirbued while Shroudfield is more to engage bigger threats in cqc.
me neither
i have ried some different builds now with and without 3s Shroudfield.
I’d say it’s a good ability you can use to do lots of damage and oneshot big things.
And it needs some skill to use properly.
i use it often exactly to help people in trouble already and kill the threats someone faces and cannot handle in no time and getting the aggro mostly, because of impact that staggers as i use it with Crucis TH.
You can never really know for certain. The causal link isn’t always immediate. Watch health bars, and where fire lands or gunner shots go is a better way of telling.
Again though my main issue is Infiltrate. Shroud tends to be a very fast poof then reappearance that allows most of the de-aggroed targets to come back via simple proximity.
Though as I’ve shown in the previous thread where I argued against stealth (linked above) when it is used defensively it can turn in a real sh*tshow as shown by the clip where there were around 20 specials (maybe more) within less than minute that got dumped right on my lap.
I didn’t mean to imply you’re somehow against low skill players at all. I was trying to point out that Darktide, by design, has tons of different tiers of choices that affect your team. Lack of proper level limits to difficulties, no orange rarity gear requirement for T5, grims and people who don’t reroll the weeklies… just to name a few that aren’t related to talents or builds, yet all of them are definitely choices.
I’m not saying this to pass blame on you or anyone else. I mean heck, I spend a vast majority of my time running weird experimental builds many of which make my performance a fraction of what it could be. While I could still do more than carry my weight, is that any excuse? Because ultimately, every time I don’t bring my best, that means my team must compensate. Even if at my worst I could carry 2 full people’s worth, yet at best I could double that, would that be any excuse? Note, I’m not saying this as an ego thing, but to prove a point that for the sake of this argument your skill level doesn’t matter. You could be the best player in the world and yet every time you bring less than your best, it means you expect the others to work a bit harder than they would have had to otherwise. So every time I make that choice, I share at least part of the blame if the run fails regardless of what the other 3 did or didn’t do.
How is that different from the grims, the levels, the gear? So no, I’m not blaming you, or even the people who do pick grims or come in low level or without upgrading their gear. Because I make those same choices, just in a different way.
In my experience the most pressing issue in these scenarios by far are the risks involved in getting to the downed person, and then rezzing that person safely. People rarely ever go down when they remain in their defensive positions with the team and everything is working as planned.
So in practice at least in my experience, most downs happen when someone made a mistake or is out of position and away from the team, while the rest of the team is in better positions or not making mistakes, and still handling the situation just fine. Also in practice, even without stealth that person going in for the rez could only possibly do so if they were not holding massive aggro in the first place. If there was a crusher or 10 gunners on top of them, there’s no way for them to make it happen. Often this also means that the rest of the team must cover the rezzer.
Imo on average the benefits of stealth far outweigh the negatives here. A stealth rezzer doesn’t need cover or extra help, they don’t need their team to take further risks and follow them to whatever out of position place that downed teammate was in either. Instead they can stick to that best defensive position they’re at, hold their ground for a few seconds extra just like they’ve successfully been doing so far, until the problem resolves itself thanks to the stealth.
I think this issue is very comparable to objectives. You could argue that stealth is a detriment to the team there too for the same reasons. Yet I doubt almost anyone would agree given how dramatically easier objectives become when the teams don’t have to constantly stand around in open ground surrounded by the enemy and snipers and flamers and bombers, all just to cover someone decrypting an objective that’s constantly under fire (often literally swimming in a pool of it). Instead they just pick the best defensive position, easily hold the enemy back, while the stealther takes care of everything.
I’m really not at all. That part was aimed in the general direction of the people behind the countless complaints here, reddit, Steam, everywhere really. That bit about people often and easily looking for something or someone to blame wasn’t just about scoreboards or stealth, but something that happens everywhere all the time, in both gaming and real life. And it’s a huge problem, imo.
(btw, I had to take a 2h break to do something else around here so if my response gets a bit uncoherent, sorry! 
)
I wish more people held your views. I agree completely. While I’m pretty new here, over in other forums I’ve done my best to help and teach others about the many odd curiosities about the game, specifically about all things psykers, for at least a year now. Here too, even if it hasn’t been much so far. I always try to contribute something to the topic, and try to be polite, though I admit I don’t always succeed. I’ve always been extremely sensitive to toxicity and just abusive behaviour in general, so it makes it easy for some to get under my skin or just risk losing my composure in general. I’m not proud of it, but it is what it is. Still, I do try.
What you are trying to do is the right thing and for the right reasons. And like I said, I’m no expert on stealth and my subjective experiences obviously aren’t evidence of anything at all. All I have is an opinion based on my experiences, and admittedly an instinctive reaction to resist this tendency some people (not you) have to label random easy targets as scapegoats. I also happen to very much like asymmetric design and stealth is that, so in that sense I suppose I am serving selfish interests.
But what I’m trying to say is that truthfully you could very well be right. I don’t think you are, but I’m not an authority on this, not even to myself. Just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean that I have something against you as a person, in fact thanks to what you just said it’s the opposite. People can hold similar or even same views but still disagree. 
So I don’t agree that stealth is a problem at all. I think it’s ultimately no different from many other things in the game that can be used right or wrong, and those choices are part of the charm of the game. They give it meaning and depth. But I could very well be wrong too. I don’t hold this issue or others as one of ego, saying this because I want to be right. I say this because I believe I am, that’s all. And if I’m not right, if stealth is indeed as harmful as you say it is, then absolutely it should be reworked because everyone wins with a fair and balanced game. I hope the devs have this information and will react accordingly, whatever the case.
I’ve frequently suggested nerfs to psykers or their weapons (as I said I’m a main psyker), to various talents and builds I myself am using etc. I always do this, with every game. And especially on Steam this always gets me into arguments where some people become extremely aggressive and toxic about it. At worst flat out lying about the issue, or personally attacking me just for bringing awareness to a problem (one that often many already know exists). People who have no interest at all in the common good or the health of the game or its community as a whole, but simply want to hold on to whatever broken OP builds and exploits are in the game for no other reason than because they can. I will never understand those people, nor agree with them. Balance serves everyone, it’s in everyone’s interests. Not balance as in “make everything the same, boring, easy, so choices no longer matter”, but balance as in “keep the variation and meaningful choices, but make them ALL meaningful, as opposed to 1 OP and 100 bad ones so really there’s no choice at all”.
Sorry for the huge writeup. And thank you for this discussion btw! Good dialogue or learning something completely different and new about the game are what I enjoy most about hanging out in these forums. 
There you go, creating another flame about Infiltrate 
You have to understand that people don’t like if you tell them the skill they’re having fun with sucks and is killing their team mates. I was actually questioning Infiltrate after our discussion only to realize that I was right about infitrate contributing to the team in other ways. I have actually high success rate with my sniper build.
I would say that you are at least a little bit preoccupied with your opinion you are forcing on everyone else. In reality you loose argo only when you’re about to die or when you need to solve something more treatening. It’s not like you’re running Infitrate 24/7. I never once had an issue with other people running Infitrate unless they’re not paying attention and rushing ahead.
Kind of hard not to understand that. I jumped into what would generally be a positive thread, and threw my very strong opinion against it.
Still hoping someone can fully disprove it.
I’m looking for a reason to justify using it myself, but can’t. It’s a very cool skill thematically. My inner 12 year old loves it. EDIT: This could be interpreted as a dis. It’s not. I do think its genuinely cool.
Your assessment is not unfair in the slightest though.
Glad I gave you pause, and that you were at least observing its use cases more carefully.
I’ll be testing it again soon once I have some friends hop on as I won’t be testing it on strangers.
Because you compairing it to VoC which is just brokenly op, compared to other options, in my oppinion.
Infiltrate or stealth in general is suppose to be mainly offensive tool, and defensive side of it should be looked at as addition, in my opinion. If you take stealth just to res people, you are doing it wrong.
VoC, while being purely defensive tool in nature, is so strong that it helps your offense not much less than Infiltrate dose.
So, if you want to look at it objectively, taking infiltrate is only going to be useful for fast objective completion, if you already have 1 or 2 VoC or Chorus in team.
But this is a game, you supposed to have fun here. So if you want to use something, why dont just use it for fun of it? It’s not like you are gonna get fired from darktide, if you are not running BIS stuff all the time.
I Also looked at your clip from other post, and i really hope its not the best showcase you had.
You can literally see how trapper turns on you and then immediately back to zealot, which means he went out of stealth immidiatley as he enters, you seemed to be fine with it.
And you didn’t even loose any hp, if i am looking at the right bar. Even though you ate 2 bursters,
you were fine and played well.
I think the real reason, why you “Struggled” is because you were alone, almost one room away of your team, not saying it was wrong descision though.
And frankly, alot of sh*t just spawned. If your team waited and didnt pulled the next room, while horde and special wave was up, it would have been pretty easy encounter, i think.