Can we get some updates to make Shields more appealing for Ogryns? Right now that somewhat serve no purpose other than to look really cool. They dont have to be high damage dealers, but lets add some features that would actually make sense for a shield bearer trying to protect their group. For instance, a taunt feature that pulls fire or large groups off team mates and onto you? A damage over time ability that you can activate when blocking people. Something to make it more of a useable feature in highend runs. I AM THE ONLY OGRYN WHO REFUSES TO PUT DOWN MY SHIELD, SHOW ME SOME LOVE!
6 Likes
I feel heavy attacks should deal a bit more damage, since the animation feels like youâre hitting them like a tank.
It would be nice if heavy 2 (the shield backhand) had a parry/guard point like the Brettonian Knightsword, since the animation of it covers the torso with the shield almost completely.
9 Likes
I feel like shield build would work better if bleed wasnât functionally useless against hordes. Also agree with @zaygr shield could definitely do a little more damage, at least to squishy targets. In reality being hit like that should shatter someone, if shield is gonna be slow and low single target it could at least clear hordes passably.
6 Likes
I would really like it if Shieldgryns learned how to dodge-slide and sprint-slide instead of plunking down their shield and doing nothing as soon as shots start flying. Itâs giving me bad Ironbreaker flashbacks.
Maybe the slab and maul should be more offensively tuned instead of having a near-unbreakable guard.
6 Likes
The maul on the Shield is a Power Maul, just changing the special to Power Maul strike would make it much better
Besides changes in damage, I would like to see
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more stamina
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block cost reduction vs range
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more block frames, feels like there are gaps in the player actions where the shield is front and present but without block up.
1 Like
There was a period where it worked just right when bleed damage was functional. It wasnât huge burst damage, but you could deal with anything via attrition and simply outlasting them.
Unfortunately the meta has changed to damage-only, which is exactly what I was afraid of, utility and crowd control are just coincidental additions, and always sacrificed in favour of killing faster, and the devs are going along with it in terms of balance.
I liked the early days when using an ogryn as a moving cover, and using it to draw fire was a completely accepted and fun strategy, it added an extra element of teamwork to the game. Now itâs just wasted damage potential, especially without the bleed damage.
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I use the shield. It trivialises demon hosts to the point that I consider them broken. Good for monstrosities weeklies.
With that said, I wouldnât mind seeing some love, but since crafting is not even in the game I havenât even botherd to start theory crafting anything until this game gets out of what should be early access.
2 Likes
Umm⌠yes⌠this is me. Donât slide much⌠but I most often donât plonk down my shield against ranged either.
lol sorry, didnât mean to disparage people who donât slide everywhere in combat. Itâs just sometimes this shield seems to promote a passive playstyle thatâs really not helpful on Heresy or above.
3 Likes
Given how few Ogryn weapons exist, thereâs definitely room for a distinct niche.
- Increase Blocking Movespeed. The worst trait of the Maul+Shield right now is that my Bull Butcher can dodge-slide and engage enemy ranged troops in melee better than I could with a shield. So by significantly increasing movespeed during block, the shield would end up being the easiest way to tie up enemy ranged, and thatâd be a huge improvement to it.
- vs. Horde: improve the damage slightly against horde, with the goal of Average DPS vs. Unarmored/Infested horde targets. (Currently itâs below average.)
- vs. Flak Horde: currently Shield is above average at clearing Flak enemies (which is unusual for horde-clear weapons; they often hit a wall against flak, but Maul+Shield does better against Flak than infested horde actually). I think this should be the second main thing (apart from Movement-While-Blocking) that really sets Shield apart (meaning maybe they should have even higher Flak damage than they currently do).
- vs. Carapace: Currently it does abysmal DPS vs. Crushers (~68) and I think this should be dramatically improved so that it does bad DPS vs. Crushers (~120). Push-attack > L3 combo should be the best single target combo (like Mace+Shield from Vermintide) for reaching that DPS.
- Heavy stagger. Heavies are mediocre DPS and maybe thatâs fine as long as they reliably stagger everything up to (and including) Crushers. This will mean you can stunlock basically all non-monstrosities infinitely with shield. If Power Maul can stunlock Crushers while also doing the highest Ogryn melee DPS against them without being OP, then clearly Shield stunlocking them (while doing pitiful DPS; granted itâs cleave DPS against more than just a single target) wonât be OP either.
- Auto-blocking. Iâve always liked @zaygr 's suggestion of Bret Sword-style auto-blocks whenever the shield looks like itâs protecting the Ogryn. So doing that would be great.
So the two main strengths of Shield would be that you can close on ranged enemies while blocking and you can clear Flak horde faster than any other Ogryn weapon.
No melee weapon should do less than 100 base DPS vs. Crushers with an endgame weapon (Damage attribute >60%), but Shield, Krourk cleavers, and maybe Turtolsky VII are all below that threshold currently. (I say âmaybeâ because I definitely recorded my Turtolsky VII at 89 DPS but thatâs close enough to 100 that maybe testing errors, like not charging heavies reliably or not hitting headshots, were a factor.)
8 Likes
One thing that puts me off the sheild is you cant see through it despite being a window⌠I thought I was using the special wrong but this is normal⌠Maybe a âforceâ sheild or the one Reinhardt uses⌠so u see through it and provide cover however a counter will be needed like sniper/dog/horde/grens go through it⌠Another idea is why not a have a slab sheild and a choice of melee weapon⌠a gauntlet+sheild sounds funâŚ
I was just writing another reply and came up with mostly the same suggestions before I saw your post here. Implementing these changes would go a long way to make the Shield one of the most fun to use weapons in the game.
Shields should let you play very aggressively letting you push into ranged groups and bash and push your way around the battlefield to help allies.
- Auto-blocking. Iâve always liked @zaygr 's suggestion of Bret Sword-style auto-blocks whenever the shield looks like itâs protecting the Ogryn. So doing that would be great.
This change alone would make the Shield feel amazing to use and make combat with it flow so much smoother.
1 Like
Iâm all up for improving the damage of the Slab Shield, but right now I feel the Ogrynâs melee arsenal has a glaring problem.
-I can take the Bull Butcher with Slaugtherer and become good at eliminating 90% of the enemies in the game.
-I can take the Bully Club or the Shovel and become good at eliminating the remaining 10% (Maulers, Ragers, Ogryns).
-I can take the Shield or the Power Maul to provide CC.
The percentages are ofc made up to get the point across. We have ONE weapon that eliminates hordes quickly and efficiently, and this weapon can also get Slaugtherer for another 75% dmg boost. If I happen to pair the Bull Butcher with a Grenadier Gauntlet/Rumbler I can suddenly deal with all threats in the game â Hordes, groups of Scabs/Dregs, Elites, Specialists, Carapace, Shooters, and even Monstrosities. I donât need teammates to cover up any weaknesses.
If I take any other melee weapon then a Bull Butcher, Iâm going to be weak to âOK at bestâ for eliminating hordes and groups of Scabs/Dregs. And these are my most common enemies in every room. When I queue Quick Play and get random teammates with unknown weapon load-outs, do I gamble that someone else covers my AoE weakness? Or do I just bring BB+GG and cover everything myself? And we canât just nerf the Bull Butcher either, because then the Ogryn doesnât have any efficient horde clear, which is supposed to be a class strength according to the Ogryn reveal by Fatshark.
Iâm not disparaged. I feel like Iâm missing a trick by not sliding enough :).
the problem with the shield (at least for me) is not its stats, even if they buffed the numbers substantially i doubt it would see much play amongâst my group of friends.
because of fun, or lack there of, itâs slow and sluggish and the implacement mechanic is the opposite of a fun mechanic, it doesnât involve any decision-making, timing or skill expression. and to top it of its quite low in impact (mostly less impactful than just controlling a wave)
Eh, thatâs not its problems. Low skill weapons are fine. And the weapon does have skill expression. Choosing to plant yourself is a choice. Just as choosing to stop is. Itâs not as high-skill as, say, running a Halberd and maintaining perfect tempo on your single target or aoe combo (actually this is why I generally hate the halberd, especially with non-dedicated inputs for heavy attack and light attack combos,) but it still is an expression of skill.
The problem is, it doesnât matter if you block everything. Most allies canât shoot through you, and you are removing your ability to move up or otherwise impact the battle thatâs happening.
Even on Malice, a ranged firing line can drop your shield stamina so fast that you will be forced to plant anyways. That is the shieldâs problem. It being slow is fine. It being sluggish is fine. It should probably be buffed there, but thatâs not the weaponâs issue.
The issue is that the shield cannot actually push on higher difficulties, making it mandatory to plant.
Secondary issues are things like Bulwarks/Crushers just phasing through the shield.
All shield weapons, including deflector force swords, should block all ranged fire at a fraction of the cost they do now. Getting shot at should be cheap on stamina/peril. What it also should do is slow you down a touch while being shot at.
Likewise, shield weapons should have a passive that naturally reduces damage taken from ranged fire. Psykerâs deflector force sword should be relatively weak (E.G. 20%) whereas ogrynâs shield a fair bit stronger (E.G. 50%). If they donât already (havenât checked in a while,) both shields should be able to block a sniperâs shot at severely reduced cost, and both should passively reduce the damage a sniper would do if you, say, get shot through a horde.
They can be slow, clumsy, limited weapons. But they need to be better able to do their job. So why should these areas by upgraded?
- The weapon âforcesâ the user to plant too much. The issue is stamina costs against damage are too high.
- The weapon is slow and sluggish. The issue is it doesnât gain enough for how sluggish it is.
- Ogryn has a general problem with ranged attacks. Giving a surefire way an Ogryn can deal with ranged that also helps the team makes the weapon compelling.
- If it has passive reductions, then shoving with the weapon and getting some attacks off while being shot at by ranged enemies, even if the weapon is sluggish, will be more viable due to passive damage reduction.
My point is mostly that, the issue with the shield is that itâs not good enough at its niche, and it pays a lot for that bad niche. Buff up the niche and, while it wonât replace every Ogryn weapon, it will at least be taken literally ever.
Well remember capability isnât a binary thing.
Meaning when you take Bull Butcher + Grenade Gauntlet you actually wonât do great DPS vs. Mutants (and a few other target types), which means you arenât just magically doing great DPS against everything (and thatâs where you want teammates to come in).
Additionally while youâre right in terms of just melee weapons that only Bull Butcher is great against hordes, Ogryn as a class definitely does just fine with single-target weapons with a Heavy Stubber (and to lesser degrees: Rumbler or Ripper Gun). Stubber shreds hordes faster than basically any other horde-clear weapon, and does so with the highest ammo capacity in the game (measured by total damage all shots fired). In fact it has 50% more ammo capacity than the Kantrael XII, and pierces like 5+ targets, which multiplies the ammo efficiency (for example if you average 3 targets per shot, you actually have 350% more ammo capacity than the Kantrael XII, when measured by total damage).
I do agree that itâd be great to see more good horde-clear Ogryn melee, but I think theyâre less reliant on it than youâve presented. (And while Iâm highlighting Stubber both Rumbler and Ripper Gun are up there too.)
Krourks I think are the weirdest Ogryn weapon currently. I wish theyâd either commit to Krourks either:
A. Being an âOgryn Dueling Swordâ (with great Ogryn +5% dodge distance (current highest is -5% of all Ogryn weapons) and weakpoint-focused attacks and damage), OR
B. Being a lot more like Bull Butcher with bigger cleaves. (Like if they had lights be stabs with good armor penetration, and had heavies be reasonably fast swings with great cleave. Basically the Ogryn equivalent of a Greathammer from Vermintide; lights for single targets, heavies for horde; push-attack would cleave too to give you a momentâs space to begin your heavy spam against horde).
1 Like
I donât know what you qualify as great DPS, but my Bull Butcher kills a Mutant in 6 Light Attacks when Slaugtherer is fully powered, and in general I just kill Mutants reliably with the Bull Butcher regardless of Slaugtherer.
Using the Stubber against hordes of Poxwalkers when youâre trying to carry Power Cells is absolutely a no-go. And Iâm not just talking about Poxwalker killing. Itâs about killing Scabs and Dregs too. When you see a patrolling group of Scab/Dreg shooters in front of you, you can easily dive with the Bull Butcher and take them out quickly. You donât dive with the Stubber, and shooting has a high risk of sending them running in different directions for cover. Diving is something the other melee weapons are much less effective at because you just donât kill fast enough. Other threats around you become aware of you which forces you to run for cover before the killing is over, and other weapons tend to swat enemies apart which consequently causes some to start shooting and more time spent running after them.
In general I find the playstyle of diving to be really powerful as both an Ogryn and a Zealot, and the Bull Butcher is king here. Itâs not that the Ogryn isnât fine with other melee weapons. The issue is that the Bull Butcher is much more effective a lot more of the time, and this talk about buffing the Shield is just a piece of a larger picture imo.
The weapon feels booring to use (slow, sluggish) and barely does anything even to the horde type enemies. Like i cannot find any justifiable reason as to why pick shield instead of just pretty much anything else in his arsenal.
The few times shields ability comes into play (basically demonhost, few odd ball cases) you can pretty much play around those sitsuations or someone unironically screwed up like pulled a demonhost.
Iâm not in general the biggest shield fan, never was in vermintide2 and definitely not here. But at least in vermintide it felt like shields actually killed the few targets you aimed at in reasonable timeframe and were not absolute bricks to use.
So if the weapon is to remain sluggish/slow, then at least amp the damage to compensate for hitting such a massive object into a horde.