Worried about Ogryn's shield

I think it completely overshadows all other melees (Ogryn’s) just for having a pocket cover.
The shield just really breaks his whole character as a CC class and makes all other options irrelevant.

I can only see this going 3 ways:

  1. Every Ogryn melee gets a shield
  2. All shieldless alternatives get massive mobility/power buffs
    EDIT: 3) Take way more stamina damage from ranged when shielding (without special attack)

I’m only lvl17 so i might be wrong about this, but right now I see 0 reason to bring any of his melees other than the one with the shield, because it’s a cover, in a tide game where enemies shoot at you, where all classes either rely on taking out enemies from a distance in cover, or having tools (charging and toughness refresh/resistance) to close the distance. Essentially it’s all about compromises, stay in place and waste time, or move up and risk losing health. (This is unlike VT where just having a shield didn’t make all other melees irrelevant, since there weren’t any trash ranged enemies, only in the form of specials, and the limited beast archers which weren’t hitscan. Shield had its perks but the downside was more obvious)

The shield breaks all of this interaction as a sole exception, and in that sense it is OP. It allows you to move up and bring the cover with you. Stamina should be irrelevant because you can cross from cover to cover while holding out your pocket cover.

TLDR Shield makes Ogryn tank but he’s supposed to be crowd control.

I disagree, I’m not quite 30 with my Ogryn but I’m getting close and the shield feels like a mislead on higher difficulties. The amount of ranged attacks you would want to use it to protect against will cause your stamina to vanish fast. It has great AoE stagger but the attacks are very slow compared to other options. I’ve felt more survivable and useful at controlling the enemy by running up in there with faster swinging weapons.

Shield is a crutch. If you can properly dodge and slide, as well as position yourself correctly, there’s no need for a shield.

There are times where it shines, and where it doesn’t. You sacrifice a lot of damage and visibility, and if the only thing you’re doing is holding up the shield to block everything you’re not really contributing to them team (Sans holding aggro from reapers/holding a door).

It helps with survivability, sure, but it can build up bad habits which results in deaths in higher difficulties.

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You will find reason to use the other weapons, since t5 mere shooters can break your stamina with 2 salvo. (I didn’t test with block efficiency though)

And Poxhound, mutants are everywhere, so planting shield not in proper time makes you pounced, and take off your teammates cover. And you will find that killing is more helpful than staggering or planting shield in horde situation, shield has almost same breakpoint with Cleaver to trash mobs, but dps-wise Cleaver is far better.

Sometimes, shield is good in some open map, some special situation to make your team breathe. But normally it’s less helping than shooting your grenade launchers, and killing and controlling horde, and elites, controlling part you don’t need shield, since Ogryn can push everything without it.

I’ll give you an example that shield was useful. I had an experience that 2 Ogryn + 2 Flame no crit zealot on Heresy(t4). We don’t have efficient shooter, and no way to get consistent ammo since Sharp shooter is not there (passive to regenerate ammo), we should depend on our melee attack, and save ammo for more dire situation. So our the other Ogryn goes first to take ranged aggro, and get close to shooters, so the other us can have shorter charge route.

But if you have sharp shooter, just shoot more, and knock down ranged guys with boom, make your zealot time for charging. Of course in random, you don’t know how your team composition will be, even then you have way to solve game without shield.

Ogryn main with some Damnation wins here, the shield is absolutely the worst option for Ogryn at the moment outside of some VERY specific instances. It simply doesn’t deal with any enemy types effectively and encourages you to be passive, but having one player in your team be passive results in the rest of your team ending up dead. It makes you even more difficult to shoot around, and makes you want to stand in the way of the ranged fire, instead of just getting out of the way and letting your sharpshooter take care of the problem. Ogryn also has actually strong ranged options that you could be contributing if you werent sitting holding up a shield. Plus if any disabler spawns you are a sitting duck.

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The real issue is that… Ogryn has no way to reduce toughness damage outside of using the shield and that breaks so fast and even dodging and sliding will have him get hit… Damn it I’ve seen Scab gunners crouch to shoot me while I’m sliding on Ogryn… That was… A revelation of… Not fun.

So even if you are better off without the shield, you’re still royally screwed, 'cos a few shots and your toughness has evaporated to nothing and then they’re chewing through your HP as if it didn’t exist.

Veterans gets 75% range toughness damage reduction on weak spot hits…
Zealots gets 75% toughness damage reduction on crits…
Psykers can just block on Force Sword with Deflector whilst having the peril instead of stamina consumption and provided they’ve gone with block efficiency stuff… Nothing short of a boss or two reapers focus firing him will break his block…

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Isn’t BloodThirst overall damage reduction? It doesn’t specify health or toughness. And we have 20% in passive. Hard as Nails work sometimes too, when you are saving your team.

Isn’t that Ult related feats? Not weak spot, weak spot just extending his skill, as far as I know.

Anyway, his damage reduction mechanism isn’t good, I can agree that. He is designed to regenerate toughness since every his melee weapon has toughness regenerate blessing in slots.

I bet almost every Ogryn player using Confidence strike or Momentum for their t4, t5 run.

For now, Stick with your team, charge les, shoot more is the Ogryn’s way.

Yeah Confident strike is 100% mandatory on 4+

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“Hunters do not normally employ shields, ineffectual against the strength of the beasts as they tend to be.
Shields are nice, but not if they engender passivity.”

Yes, you’re right it’s from the ultimate, but it makes it so much easier being Vet and you Ultimate can be extended… For quite some time with the Target All Gunners as Priority. I don’t know any of the ones I play Damnation with not running it… It’s simply that good.

Zealots get Faith Restored at lvl 5. Reduces toughness damage on crit hits… It’s also… Mandatory.

Ogryn’s gets… 50% damage resistance (I guess that’s 50% damage reduced?) when they’re in proximity of 5 bleeding units… The problem is… There’s a ridiculous amount of ranged and getting in range of enough of those to get the feat rolling… Not as easy as it is for Veteran, Zealot and Psyker…

And that is currently the big issue for Ogryn’s and why they are… less desirable on Damnation. They also lack ranged weapons that focus on single target damage as their current kit is obviously a disrupt, stagger and suppression kit.

BloodThirst isn’t bad in theory, since there’s 60% damage reduction with your passive (multiply way)

Like you said, it’s unreliable since Ogryn’s slow and most of his weapon’s cleaving heavy attack is 2nd one. Even Cleaver that have cleaving heavy attack as 1st one, it has long wind-up time.

That’s why Confident strike or Momentum blessing is mandatory on high difficulty like zhurtek said above. I know somewhere there’s someone who can beat Damnation difficulty without that blessings. But it makes Ogryn’s life easier like he’s designed through it.

Even then, 2 salvo’s just break your toughness. Most of time you can’t get every aggro of shooters on damnation. 1~2 always spread out before charge, or hid before charge. So there’s gonna be some health damage.

So in short, I agree you that he has serious ranged problem.

Yes, his ranged weapon is not for range fight. It’s for CC, or horde and weak armored elites. For first usage, you can compete with Psyker arguably. For the last usage, other classes are far better than Ogryn.

His lack of ability to handle ranged makes his melee weapons are versatile by game design (or at least I think it as that way). Longer reach than Eviscerator, longer dodge distance than Eviscerator (only 5%, and Ogryn’s big hitbox negate this advantage), better cleave in general, and flak armor penetration that many cleave weapon the other class don’t have. That’s the reason I don’t think they’ll give us some precise weapon.

And actually people use Bull Cleaver usually because of obvious reason, faster attack makes you live longer.

Toughness regeneration blessing with easy damage reduction can be too powerful. Think that Ogryn has Zealot’s damage reduction, and he can pop crit super easy with his toughness cleaver. It means 80% damage reduction all the time with that toughness regeneration with high cleave, decent dps, armor penetration (but not Carapace).

Damnation cannot be challenge then. (arguably)

This is what I thought about Ogryn and buff/tweak feedback. I don’t propose some radical buff since some brilliant and funny ideas can make some balance disaster.

Some of the ogryn feats need adjusted (EG: The two heavy attack feats are baaaaaaaad. Hell the whole focus in general on heavy attacks is… eh.) but ogryn on the whole is in a fine place. Shield is mostly a noob trap. Also you by no means require the bleed damage reduction to survive.

I feel like a broken record.

Ah, well… I didn’t really understand Confident Strike or Momentum, because there’s no such feats in the English version :). What do they do exactly, so I can find them :stuck_out_tongue:

There’s a lot that thinks the current toughness reduction is a tad too strong, but if they nerf those, they also need to nerf the damage on Damnation, 'cos 200 damage in a volley… without access to mitigate it would just kill you before you even get out of the door so… either they need to nerf damage and damage reduction feats or they need to give Ogryn something similar (I mean, you still get stripped if you’re not playing proper… Just it’s not one single volley from a ranged mob).

At least rejoice in the fact that… What Ogryn really lacks is a viable defensive feat that means he can take a few shots without dying…

Psykers has an entire feat tree that focus on maintaining warp charges and brain bursting and only… 1 feat that actually supports their weapons… We’d die to have feats that supported our weapons instead of our Brain Burst. I mean, we still kick ass without the feats, it’d just be nice so all the scrubs stop screaming about how bad Psyker is because Brain Burst isn’t strong enough…

Confident Strike : you can regenerate some toughness by chained attack.
Momentum : you can regenerate some toughness by multi hit (3 or more)

Cleaver, and Bully club can have both. Latrine shovel and Slab shield only can have Confident strike. I don’t know about Power Maul yet, but I found Power Maul has Confident strike.

I can see 4th. Shield nerf. And knowing FS, that’s most likely option.

Aaaah, Smash 'Em Good and Best Form of Defense…

Yeah, well… Toughness regeneration is necessary for everyone, just not the Zealot xD.

they are weapon blessing.

Aaaaah, right! It all makes sense now xD. I thought they were feats, 'cos that’s what I was talking about in my post…

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As someone who mains shield because I like the ability to say “Actually, I’m not being shot at the moment”:
Shield has outsized utility due to the Ogryn’s low toughness and giant hitbox- it’s not that it’s outrageously good itself, due to the downsides… it’s just the only reliable tool for covering a massive glaring weakness built into the class.

It’s a viable weapon, outstandingly so if you run with someone who can take advantage of the fantastic control it offers- one of my most frequent partners is an Eviscerator or Thunder Hammer zealot, and they’ve learned to check the floor in front of me any time they hear a crusher callout. It also synergizes well with the popular veteran tactic of firing into the horde, since it can create a nice neat pile of bodies to your left waiting to catch an insurance bullet.

I feel like one of the reasons it’s so in vogue to dump on the shield is that it gives you more options for coming out of a bad situation or imperfect play intact, so by performatively deriding it, these players are showing that they are skilled enough that they never make mistakes, are never caught in the open, never have a dense horde around them while a crusher is coming in with an overhead. It’s theatre… but like the genuine athleticism at the core of pro wrestling, they still make some valid points.

For all that it offers unique options, the maul and slab shield is undeniably undertuned as an actual weapon. They gave it downsides, and I think that’s reasonable… but they went overboard. Shove doesn’t fling the shield to the side like in Vermintide, so that’s nice… but if the impact is going to be on the mild side, the followup attack shouldn’t be dropping your guard. Vision is too obstructed, baseline move speed/dodge/sprint reduction is too severe, and the damage, particularly on the heavy attacks against Maniac armor type, is just inexplicably low.

I think it’s the performance on the heavies that sticks out the most. The feel of them is excellent; there’s a nice, meaty crunch and things go flying… but the first one is either too slow for the damage it deals or too weak for its wind-up time. I’d probably go with the latter; it’s a haymaker to the center of the screen, with a very narrow hitbox for a Relentless-type attack. It should be doing a little more damage baseline, and MUCH better damage to Maniac armor. Mutants can’t be staggered, so all that force still needs to go somewhere. A wider hit cone and better damage vs. carapace would be nice, but a narrow hitbox is a natural downside to a thrust/straight punch, and poor armor penetration is a natural downside to a diffuse striking surface like a shield. I can live with those as logical weaknesses if the illogical weaknesses are addressed.
The second heavy comes out at a much more reasonable speed, but… guys. It deals less damage than the light attack. It’s got better cleave and more stagger, but you “pay” for those with the charge time; the base damage shouldn’t be worse on a heavy than a light when they’re the same attack “type”.

TL:DR- the shield is a unique weapon in that it allows you to offset the Ogryn’s inability to use cover, the explicit traits of the weapon are undoubtedly present in the form of a strong defense and good crowd control… but it has real and significant downsides that keep it from being broken and may actually go too far in the other direction.

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Personally, I think that Ogryn is well-equipped with ranged weapons that offer superb suppression, the ripper and auto-cannon specifically. There might some misleading info about how you as an Ogryn should play; but your ability to shred ranged units is real and you shouldn’t be fixated on just your melee. Try using those ranged weapons that I mentioned and try to engage the enemy units based on there method of attack.