Shield Buffs before/when Wind of Magic DLC comes out

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
42

I think we need a different angle on that topic. It would be really counterintuitve to give shields better dodge. They are defensive Tools and they should allow you to just stand your ground and take control of a situation. Additionally we have a ton of Traits, Talents and so on that increase defensive capabilities (like Block-Cost, Block-Angle, Stamina-Regen… etc.), most of which are pretty useless currently or are at least not really considered by a majority of people.

While Fatshark very often tries to be as realistic as possible when it comes to weapon design (even if it’s horrible for gameplay cough Kruber’s Longbow cough) I think they missed an obvious thing when it comes to shields: Shields provide passive protection, as you don’t need to worry about every single attack thats coming your way. You really don’t need to actively parry like you would have to with a sword (i.e. checking and aligning the angle of your blade with that of your opponents for example). This also allows you to block multiple attacks that come your way without too much of an issue, or at least compared to any other weapon.

So therefore how about just making shields passively block attacks from mobs. Therefore you could attack “while” blocking as mentioned earlies. Of course this would still deplete your stamina pool (maybe even cost more stamina) but it would give you more flexibility ingame. Shields therefore would so to say offer you two modes to use them: Either you go into full crowd control as you do currently i.e. by shoving/pushing/stunning using your stamina actively or you could just switch into an aggressive mode where you just throw yourself at a group of enemies swinging at them wildly and hoping that your stamina doesn’t run out before all enemies are dead.

Of course this wouldn’t be like IB’s Talent as it’s not an invulnerability. Overheads or charged attack could still break all your stamina shields at once as well. Also Attacks from outside your Blockangle will still damage you. Again it would just cover your frontarc.

This would justify the lower damage output as at the same time you just can take more hits and would bring in the benefit that all those talents I mentioned before would be far more interesting. Suddenly strange traits like Inspirational Headshots or other stamina buffs could actually help a coordinated team as maybe your ranged classes provide stamina to your tank to hold the line (not just bounce enemies around in silly ways waiting for someone else to actually bring in the dps needed). To me the current gameplay loop of shields, i.e. spamming push block just feels bad. When I pick a shield I want to be beefy and able to stand my ground, not play ping pong with staggered ratties.

PS: And yes that might make Kerris new Spear and shield combo OP but frankly I don’t give a sh*t. First Shields are kind of bad. Yes they are viable but I think gameplay wise they just feel weird. And also there are far worse offenders right now and also I think you could balance new weapons as well. Maybe the Spear Shield combo has a very low amount of Stamina compared to other shield combos. I’m still hoping they’re making more of a buckler for her rather than a towershield but we will see.

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43

Well ironically only good shield is no shield and sienna can be best shield ever (100% cost reduction), even shade is better at using shield without shield because of half stamina cost for push

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I’m actually a fan of the earlier statement that it’s not just shields that need a buff but also that dodge on other weapons needs a slight nerf. Many of the other weapons have such massive dodge distances that it makes them strictly dodge-dancing weapons compared to the shield; the increase in stamina isn’t enough to warrant the distinct drop in ability to not get hit in the first place.

If I have the opportunity to dodge out of 80% of all attacks that would have hit me or be able to absorb 70% of all attacks that would have hit me, the dodge is the same as ‘absorbing’ them but also gives me free re-positioning.

I think that some good tweaks might be along the lines of the following as you guys have said earlier:

  • Slightly decrease dodge distance on one-handed weapons and some ranged weapons
  • Provide shields the “Full-Block” stance, allowing them to absorb 1 unblockable every once in a while (this could be a really cool ‘Parry’ idea if you make it a frame-perfect block) with a large associated cooldown but possibly associate it with blocking your vision entirely?
  • Edge the damage of shielded weapons up just barely (for the already existing weapons) and a little more for Mace/Hammer & Shield
  • Possibly associate stamina with blocking a special-attack?

The last bullet point I tack on for the sake of addressing it. It could be cool but could also be game-breaking and I wanted to just poke and prod at the idea. @Yzneftamz, is there a way to balance it with an associated stamina cost in addition to the “facing the enemy” idea? Possibly you still get hit if you have 4 or less shields remaining? I’m just throwing out ideas, not anything solid.

@anon31175957 I think that we can buff the other shields without making them a “blanket buff” for all shielded-items, so there is a way to affect all of the other shielded weapons without affecting the Spear & Shield too much.

Another thought for it is that I’d like to see the Spear & Shield be almost entirely worthless against the chaff; make it an armored/special slayer with huge control but struggles to clear a horde without help. I’d love to see Handmaiden rely more on her team while providing a generous amount of control to help them along and I’d find it a really rewarding play-style.

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45

I’d say Stamina could indeed be a balancing factor, but the limitation would need to be pretty heavy to actually limit things. I don’t think a threshold would be enough, and actual Stamina cost would be needed - and a pretty high one at that. 6 Stamina (3 shields) could do it, but I think even more could be warranted, requiring significant (although momentary) resource expenditure and seriously limiting options immediately before or after. An interesting variant could be a smaller stamina cost, but a special cooldown for any active shield use for a moment after: Fluff-wise, blocking an unusual attack takes your shield badly out of position so you cannot use it to actively block or push for a second or so afterwards. Blocking an unblockable attack from a Boss should still eat up all Stamina, and could possibly carry a similar penalty too. Though in all honesty, I still think incorporating a timing element (either a forgiving one in addition to Stamina costs, or a less forgiving one instead of them) would be a good thing, for the encouragement of a more active playstyle I stated before.

I see one or two (depending on how you look at it) problems with that wish. Handmaiden is already a powerhouse against hordes because of her Dash. She doesn’t need a strong crowd-clearing weapon to deal with crowds (half the reason why I’ve started to somewhat like the new Axe on her). This would be even more a case if her Bladedancer worked correctly. Besides, her Spear is already a pretty control-heavy weapon, with its damage output being weighted towards single targets. It still shreds hordes very well.

But I think it’s way too early to talk or even speculate about the Elf’s Shield and Spear. We only know the weapon’s name for now, and I at least have reason to believe it may differ significantly from the other shielded weapons. Remember, Kerillian is the only character who doesn’t share any of her weapons with another. Even if a few behave pretty close to others, all of her weapons are unique.

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I agree with the cost for shields; I imagined the same thing and failed to state it properly. Seeking an active play-style for shields would be very favorable and I’m a huge fan of the “Parry” idea for shields being implemented in some fashion or another. I don’t know what the effects should be, but I love the idea.

You aren’t wrong: it’s too early to speculate. I wanted to bring it up to mention that any of the shielded weapons should be able to be extremely different on offense while still maintaining defense, but you are correct to say there’s not much to contribute on the topic at the moment :slight_smile:

You are also correct about her Spear plus the Handmaiden’s Dash. It makes for a fairly ridiculous combo of reach, dodge, repositioning, and single-target damage, but it does require her to be fairly mobile to make it all work. She finds being mobile easy, but her team probably can’t keep up (in the instance of dashing through a boss/patrol) and then you lose the effects of her Renewal aura; I think it would be more fun to play Handmaiden more like a front line for the team that doesn’t do quite as much kiting and focuses more on supporting the team. That’s IMO, though, and not at all fact.

Perhaps it would be time to limit Kerillian’s ability to still retain the majority of her movement speed while attacking depending on the weapon chosen? I’d really like to see the spear have a downside (other than it’s lackluster CW killing ability, that is :stuck_out_tongue: ).

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Part of the problem is that blocking itself is not that effective. Here’s some situations:

-Vs a stacked horde, or even worse stacked elites, you simply can’t block them. There are too many hits incoming, and they will instantly drain all your stamina, even with a shield and it’s block bonuses. Dodging is the only option. Note that this is VERY common, as in 90% of the entire game.

-Monsters and CW’s both have certain hits that drain 100% of your stamina, no matter how much of it you have. Shields are no better then any other weapon here.

-Monsters have certain hits that go through block, even with a shield. Dodging is literally the only option.

-Vs a single CW, blocking is extremely valuable. Blocking their overhead with good timing will set them off balance and earn you time for a couple good strikes. Now add in another CW - a common occurence on Legend. Blocking becomes near useless, because the timing is thrown off and even if you get luck you can’t block two strikes in a row because they drain 100% of your stamina. Dodge becomes your only defense. Add in 2 or 3 or 4 CW - not exactly rare - and the very idea of blocking becomes comical.

In other words, BLOCKING ITSELF is weak. Too weak to build an entire weapon around. The game itself is heavily biased towards situations that only dodge can counter.

I agree that dodging is too easily spammable, and would like to see the number of effective dodges reduced to 1, 2 or 3 depending on weapon. I’d also like to see the penalty for using them all up increased, it’s barely noticable. It’s too easy to just spam dodges left and right all day and be immune to everything, it should be reserved for when it’s truly needed. However, that will not magically fix shields or make blocking more attractive. Blocking is just too inneffective in too many situations, especially vs stacked foes, which is what Vermintide IS ALL ABOUT.

The mechanics of the game just don’t support the mechanics of shield weapons. Either blocking itself needs a major overhaul, or shields need new mechanics to counter the above situations, or shields need to bring something unique and valuable (like a reliable taunt vs monsters, or ability to interrupt otherwise uninterruptable attacks), or shields need to be balanced in line with other weapons.

This is getting long so I’ll briefly point out that CC is also weak - the very things that you need it against (CWs, SV, Monsters) are the ones it doesn’t reliably work against. So that doesn’t help shields either.

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48

If you’re saying that these weapons do anywhere near the level of crowd control and stagger that as shield does… uhh no? Especially not the 2h axe…

Of all of these the only one that comes close is the two handed hammer, which (surprise) does the least damage.

The weapons you listed have at least ok crowd control, but it only seems like a lot because they don’t need much, because (beating the dead horse here) dodge is WAY TOO OVERPOWERED. Hell, I can even spam dodge to victory with a shield weapon by doing jump resets. Before any meaningful conversation about this can happen, dodge needs a visit from the nerf hammer.

EDIT to say part of why shields struggle is they require a cooperative team to really shine. Let the shield bearer handle cc so everyone else can just go ham. But in most QP matches everyone has their Lone Ranger face on and has no idea that maybe they should take advantage of the safe zone being laid down by the shield bearer, and why would they when they have the dodge of destiny?

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49

I agree that blocking isn’t good in many of the situations listed, but it’s still a very strong mechanic and I think you are undervaluing it’s ability to prevent 1-2 hits at a time. Between shoves and dodges you get a lot of defense but blocking allows you to polish your game. Relying on it won’t win you difficult runs, but without it you’re much less defensible.

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I’m on the fence about this idea. It does sound nice at face value, but the more I think about it the more it sounds like it’d be either OP or a liability.

A passive block would need to be limited somehow, likely using a cooldown or stamina. A timer would make it as strong as Gromril Armour, which would be a bit much (imagine this as an ironbreaker with a shield and barkskin). If it was limited by stamina, I really can’t see it being that useful. Shield weapons just don’t have the damage output to go full berserker mode against a big pack and hope to kill them all before your passive block runs out, and against smaller groups you don’t really need to block much anyway.

Nice to know I’m not alone. IMO, limited resources are limited for a reason. If nobody is complaining about not having enough of it, chances are they’ve got too much.

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I see a lot of interesting ideas in this thread.

I concur with others who have said that they just NEED some mobility increase. Giving them a dodge count of 2 and a dodge multiplier of 0.9 would be fine, IMO. There are things that just can’t be tanked, it’s a core tenet of the game, and shields have to fit into that.

One original idea of mine is just to make the push the shield bash. Make it do damage every time you shove. Doesn’t have to be a lot of damage, but if you can be brutalizing them while you control them, that could actually be good. I mean, we (pretty much) all agree that killing is better than just controlling; why not have both with a shield?

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Well I allready said it wouldn’t work like gromril armor, so no extra timer/cooldown but solely based on stamina (and again overheads/charged attacks would be able to break it). And so of course you’re not invulnerable and able to go completly berserk but it would cancel out the problem that shields limit your movement/dodge by simply allowing you to absorb regular attacks to some degree. And of course you cant just walk into a horde to kill everything while you’re “invincible”. You would still have to push but in contrast to just pushing and blocking in a fight you can still dish out some regular damage much easier without relying on dodge-dancing. Which you simply can’t and shouldn’t be able to anyways while carrying a shield.

Well and that’s kind of my central point: allow for combat styles that don’t revolve around dodging all the time. F.E. this passive block would allow you to focus down elites in a horde much easier. You just stop pushing/bashing for a moment to get a few charged attacks in, while you are “protected” by your shield from regular attacks around you. It would still require skill as you need to be quite precise with your hits so your stamina doesn’t run out before you killed the elite and ideally you have one Stamina or so left to afterwards push mobs away.

For me that would open up some more interesting gameplay styles as you would have to manage your stamina much more carefully. I think it’s a shame that stamina is only seen as Push/Overhead-Ammo and to me tanky playstyles are just underdeveloped and everything is just focused around dodging. And I think the dodge mechanics are fine, they are fun and provide interesting gameplay. For me the problem is that there is no real alternative that is just as good, despite the fact that there would be a ton of talents/traits… etc. that would allow for different playstles, yet no one really uses them. Why nerf something when you could just buff something else?

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Sword&Shield have only 120 degree effective block angle, while over shielded weapons - 180.
This is wrong. All shielded weapons should have at least 180 degree effective block angle.

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I actually run sword and shield on huntsman a lot, because it balances out his squishiness very nicely. Same with ranger bardin. Since shields are already limited to the two characters (soon to be three I suppose) I don’t really like limiting them even further in terms of who they’re actually effective with.

Also worth noting that the “charge attack boosts stamina recovery” that those two both have is already practically tailor made for shields, especially on the a+s and s+s that have the bash first. Shield bashes and pushes all day long without even breaking a sweat.

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55

Immunity to block-disrupting attacks (elites pushes) would be great for shielded weapons.
(immunitiy or some resist to knockback too. (stealed from @Tzcheese post down there))

Blocking state could remain a split second after push, so you could push several times in succession while being in blocking state, or could use push-attack as your desired “attack while blocking”.
To be honest, it is annoying to catch hit within a small window after push.

(For example, it is very humiliating to fight with shielded weapon agains skaven slaves (at least with S&S). Several wide spread rats attacking you asynchronously is forcing you to stay in blocking stance, pushing is placing them out of reach, while you killing one, over is hitting you to the side or in the back, and you veeery slow while in shielded stance. Prolonging blocking stance after push could actually help with such situations.)

As was mentioned, dealing with bosses with shielded weapon is harder than with other weapons, because blocking is not an option, and shielded weapons have only one dodge. Especially you can feel it with Chaos Spawn, it has insanely long reach. Thus I think shielded weapons should have some over means to deal with bosses rather than dodge. Making boss attacks blockable is good, I think, you will not do much damage with shielded weapon, and you still need to block in time. About how much stamina it should cost… all of it. But Parry should allow you to block without lowering your stamina. Remember Spawn attack series? If first attack will disrupt your blocking stance, it will be kinda pointless? So, well timed block with Parry, and you can to tank boss as real tank. Fair enough, I think.

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bamboozled

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The bottom line is shield gear is bad is because they do no damage compared to anything else. Killing is always superior to Crowd-controlling, and weapons that can do both due to high stagger and attack speed are factually superior to anything a shield weapon could ever do. Until Bashing does insane damage, shield weapons will never be viable.

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Ah smack I got bamboozled! Or you did! Either way, good idea. :stuck_out_tongue:

(lol sorry, just missed your suggestion)

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What I was getting at was more that those classes are designed with shields in mind, not that I think they should be the only ones who can use them.

I suggested IB has being in need of career adjustments because FK’s shield game is much, much more active than IB’s and I have no doubt that HM’s will be as well. None of them are reliably going to steal circles from the mandatory team Zealot, but S+S comes a LOT closer than A+S and it’s not just because S+S is a better weapon. On top of the fast-recharge mobility ults, they (FK and HM) both have bonus damage AND bonus mobility from talents, both things that improve all melee play, but especially so with shields. IB has nothing like this. You can really feel the difference when you switch between IB with a shield and FK with a shield.

@thunderfingerz
The thing is, when you’re using a shield you NEED stam to survive against a pack. If you’ve spent it all through passive blocking while you get 2 or 3 hits into a single elite (and you will, because stamina depletes REALLY fast when you let a whole pack wail on you), you’re still dead because now you’re face tanking a fat stack of bad guys without any crowd control, block or dodge.

I’m definitely not against developing playstyles that aren’t dodge dependent, I’m just having trouble imagining how this mechanic would do that.

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The fact that Zealot is comically broken in a different direction is a complete thread all on its own.

Maybe you could have your shield automatically snap into place and block bloody everything, you know, like the Shielded SV do…

I still think a lot of fairly obvious stuff is wrong about shields. I think Kruber 1h mace has MORE stamina than his shield(although I haven’t played 1h mace for about 300 hours), I think the block angles for shields are less than some other weapons, and I think they should get a boost to the regen of the stamina.

Dodging is an entirely separate meta problem. The problem with shields is you don’t get to block enough attacks for long enough with them. I remember building once Kruber to have maybe 10(?) or 11 stamina and still thinking dodging would be better as it doesn’t matter how many shields you have - attacks that remove ALL stamina will wipe it out even if you have 100 Stamina shields.

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What if blocking with shields used stamina per second and other weapons used stamina per attack? Random idea…

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