Shield Buffs before/when Wind of Magic DLC comes out

Potentional ideas/fixses/tweaks for shields to become great.

Dodge:

Keep it lower/shorter dodge then 1-handed versions, but increase it from how it is
at the current build.

Can also have it be the same on the first dodge as 1-handed version then it slowly
decrease range for each aditional dodge to a maximum of 4 - 6 dodge or how many it has
today. Dont remeber how many dodge count the shield has today because dont use it
that often, even if wanna use it form time to time, then remeber after one run how
many downsides it has to it compared to everything else sadly in my opinion.

Attack/melee:

The almost stationary movment while attacking with shields has to go, i understand
your carrying a shield and its heavier but it just to much right now in my opinion.

Maybe have the heavy attacks and shield bash work like 2 handed weapon where they get alittle
forward movment at the end of attack.

Increase speed tiny bit of lights maybe…

Mobility in general feels a touch to underwhelming. Feel like a potato during faster enemies.

Shield attack/melee:

Make the shield bash do actual comparable damage to the rest of the attack pattern??

Make shield bash and shield push stagger or every 2’nd or 3’d shield bash for a bit longer
then how it is right now. Or could be tied to enemy size. if your fighting slave rats they
stagger and some of them fall down for a bit longer then fanatics etc,etc. the bigger
the units the more resistant.

Make shield more resistant to fire, not only ratgunner.
able to block or block most/partial of the damage also from poison wind globadier and
stormfiend gas, troll spew? (not blinded if you block)

Boss problem:

Make the shield have a cooldown passive or add an talent for only shields that fills
up after 8 - 16 sec or so that can actually block unblockable monster attacks and
CW’s heavy attacks. To compensate for their very minimal dodge range when meeting
spawn of chaos and ratogre etc the faster bosses.
(could also work like a meter that fills up the more attacks you block makes it goes
down faster again for second use…)

This could be a passive only for shields,talent or even a new weapon trait tied to shields
only.

Horde problem and ideas for new abilites with shields:

(Some of this would get alot better if the other suggestion earlier would be addressed)

  • Idea to have shield weapons to be able to put down shield and use there weapon
    as there one handed versions. (Like a special weapon ability like the saltspyre
    ability with his pistols). Since almost no other weapons have or use this extra
    ability/keybind. You wouldnt be able to do this all the time or as a one time use
    per map like you have to make a sacrifice when you ditch it or a longer cooldown
    after you picked it up again. (or possibly able to pick up at ammo boxses also maybe)

    Like a “slamdown in ground” where the shield sticks in the ground.
    And you either pick it up again when you want or else you have to stick with your
    1 handed version for the rest of the game.

    Could lead to some fun scenarios you could do with this, like if your fightning
    a horde and things start going south, and a gunner rat(++) shows up from behind or
    similar.
    You can slam your shield down into the ground and it will actually work as a very
    tiny wall (advantage dwarf… since hes short lol) and you can utilize it to not get
    shot/pinned down if you stay behind while fighting horde and shield works as an object
    on the map so slaverats go around it not straight through it ofcourse.

  • Idea to have shields like the first suggestion use the extra ability like saltspyre
    only use right now. But have it be an actually parry if your able to time it right before
    enemy/stormvermin overhead/chaoswarrior etc… hit and leaves the them open/ in a staggered
    postion for 1.5 - 3 secs for an attack that does guaranteed extra or critical damage for the
    duration they are staggered.
    (Would be fun if this could also be used/work with hookrats and gutterrunners)

  • Idea to give shields mini version of krubers Fk’s ult, tied to weapon special like the
    first two ideas or a selectable new shield trait. Where it works like a control/defense
    where you can push/tackle for a few meters with your shield up (have to be considerable
    less then footknight’s ult) only few meters in the direction you choose. Like if your
    getting surrounded you can tackle left/right side in a direction to control horde and
    they fall down for alittle longer duration then shield bashes.

  • Idea Hit your shield (3 times) to aggro Monster/Patrol/Elites for a duration mentioned in
    this post?

Visuals:

Shields wears down slowly in long runs, cracks/bulges/holes from extended ratgunner fire,
Stormvermin,CWs heavies atck… ( arrows stick on shield from archers when beastmen hits?? )
:slight_smile:

Think some of this could make the shields more fun and complex to use also in the long run.

3 Likes

They won’t have to buff them since the only character getting a new shield weapon is the Elf. And it’s already been stated in the articles that they want it for the HM. Because of her increased dodge passives and talents along with her increased stamina recharge, she will already be way better than any other character with a shield. And if you buff shields to make them viable on other classes, she’s only going to get even stronger with them. For those reasons, I don’t see any changes to shields happening. But who knows, they might surprise us.

I rather like the option to put away, pull out the shield with maybe a cooldown. Switch between 1h and 1h and shield but…would this not make the only 1h version basically useless…

11 Likes

Ok so, basically, they need to buff shielded weapon without giving too much advantage to the elf.

So shield doesn’t actually needs “BUFF” but additional fonctionnality to make them easier and smoother to use. Being I play a lot of shield weapon (S&S on FK and A&S on IB), there are a few things that especially make the weapon feels bad imo.

-Boss tanking :
I like the idea you gave, but what about another way to implement it. For example, if you’re full stamina, you block the attack with no damage and no stagger. Otherwise it’s just a big normal hit for you (I know this could improve further more HM with her stamina regen, but we’re talking about making shield playable here, plus a lot of tanky careers like FK have talents to improve a lot their regen).

-Armor damage / horde dealing :
Depending of the weapon, they all are weak against a type of threat. Balanced you would say, but the problem is that they are TOO weak against X threat, rendering them useless. And, I think, it all falls down to a single thing, accessibilty to charged attack. Make the shield bash, first charged, comes for special ability hit, and let the charged attack being actual attacks. And I think charged attack on a lot of weapons should have a tiny bit more cleave.

1 Like

Yea, pretty much this lol.

1520022410134

Must suck not maining elf, git gud mayflies <3

The problem with weapons in this game, is that they share a profile. So changes are pretty universal.

I think the best idea is to just let them block Monster heavy attacks but lose all stamina and take a movement debuff for 1 second.

And yea, Shield bash should always be the 1st heavy imo, followed with the 2nd and 3rd attacks being overheads. This would allow shielded weapons to deal with armour a bit better. Then just make the light attacks cleaves. This would at least make them viable.

Yeah i know elf is the only one getting a shield, but doesnt mean people wont use the older weapons
or they stop making changes or tweaks to the older ones.
I dont disagree with you about the handmaiden, but wrote this post about shield weapons in general
in mind and that the DLC is making range enemies. And that is maybe time to give the shields in general some love. Since it very seldom i see people joining with shields in this game.

( My personal opinion about handmaiden is that i think her easy mode allready with very short cooldown that goes invis and even deal dmg proc on enemies. and all that stuff.
I played her alot before just for solo running most maps for chest when the red drops was crazy low.
And after could solo maps 8 of 10 times. Stopped playing her, comes a point when too easy isnt fun.

Play this game for the challenge, not breeze and autopilot through runs. )

But thats another topic^^

And cant judge how her shield will be before the expansion is out why didnt mention the DLC weapon. Anyway, they can do nerfs where needed and not down the line.

Good points made, but I don’t think all of them are needed. In my view, shields have the following problems: First, due to the overwhelming use of and reliance on mobility in the game, they feel too clumsy to use. This could still be ignored, if not for the second problem: Underwhelming defensive enhancements. They have extra Stamina (mostly useful for pushes), wider block angle (often irrelevant), and the ability to block Gunner fire (useful mostly if caught in a bad situation which shouldn’t happen without Twitch and Gunline, or against Deathrattler). WoM will likely add the ability to block archer fire - still quite a small addition. Third problem goes specifically for Mace/Hammer and Shield, which is adding more control capability (at the cost of damage and general effectiveness) to an already control-heavy weapon, putting it way too deep to the control side of control vs. damage balance.

The clumsiness could indeed be remedied by increasing their dodge capabilities, but I’m not sure if that’s a good way of doing things, as it’d take the shields closer to other weapons in feel - and style of use. I think it’d very likely end up being changes that don’t feel like changes, or taking them too close to other weapons’ capabilities, making the shields too similar to other weapons or even too strong. I’d much prefer the approach of adding to their blocking capabilities: In addition to Gunner fire, let us block the immediate effects of flamethrowers (though not the ground fire, obviously, and they could well eat through Stamina pretty fast) and Troll’s blinding effects from heaving to our face - and/or let blocking with a shield reduce or mitigate the damage from the Bosses’ “unblockable” attacks, as OP suggested. Also a thing that others have suggested, being able to attack while blocking, could be a savior for the shields, even if I’m not certain how that’d be implemented. Perhaps through the (surprise) Weapon Special Button? In short, I’d hope for more capability to block things in general, not more mobility.

That still doesn’t address the problems of too much control at the cost of too little damage, but that’ts a somewhat separate issue, and needs tweaking of attack patterns and numbers on a weapon-by-weapon basis to fix.

5 Likes

How about we take the shield bash (charged 1(a/s s/s)* charged 2 (h/s)* ) and put it in the push attack and take the push attack and put it in the charged 1
(insert patrik meme)

This way when you want a shield bash you’ll get one, and maybe add some more dmg to it and cleave.

*axe and shield, sword and shield, hammer and shield.

Wasn’t the push attack at some point/earlier build the first charged?
But when they had a big update last year with tweaks they switched it to the second
for some reason?

Can swear it was 1st at some point, when i used the shields right after the game almost came out.

The Hammer/Mace and Shields’ push attack was changed (during the Big Balance Beta) to its current form, into the overhead, specifically because before, the weapon had no methods at all to deal with armored enemies effectively. I know people still aren’t happy with the weapon and its armor capabilities, but that change (among the others) made it at least capable of dealing with armored enemies in a sensible timeframe.

1 Like

Thats right, havent used the shields in awhile and the hammer and shield even less because the added control but even less damage then the axe variant.

Think a poll on shields used per run compared to other weapon in general would be on the bottom.

Remeber using shield on recruit because a friend got the game a few months ago.
And was just trying to help him out and not rush ahead etc.
And the shields on easier difficulty works, but as you get to Champion/Legend.
It falls off very hard because the bigger hordes and Healthbars/Dmg’s and all.

They would need a different attack pattern as of today to work, or some other kind of tweaks…
And like you said earlier not trying to make them feel like other weapons at the same time.

As soon as your in a situation where your the last man standing or have one of the faster bosses or even two gutterrunners or similar it has no “clutch” ability at all, because the dodge and movement is so minimal as soon as stamina bar is out your pretty much dead with a shield in your hand.

Shields feels very gimmicky as they are right now on higher difficulties.

Maybe they are doomed to be a recruit weapon for learning the ropes of the game where they can shine.

I hope im wrong and they make some much needed changes to them though so can use more weapons/builds.

And some of the suggestion wrote earlier isn’t all needed togheter. But more complexity to a weapon that fall so short think it could bring it up.

  • it adds more variety to weapons which is good IF your using a said weapon alot.
1 Like

I’ve used shields extensively, I think swordshield and axeshield are in a good spot right now. But mace/hammer and shield needs a buff, it’s the weakest weapon in the entire game and it’s highest damage attack (and only practical anti armour attack) is tied to stamina. I would add a Light 4 antiarmour attack just like the 1h mace, then buff heavy 1 and the push attack. This would make it more practical to use it’s full set of attacks rather than just spamming push attack over and over on any target bigger than a fanatic.

4 Likes

Some fascinating ideas here!

First off I do think shields are in a good place right now, in terms of dodge and mobility while attacking. Yes they’re slow and don’t have much dodge, but they need SOME downside for the extra defense. You just can’t play them like the other weapons or yeah you will feel like a potato and get rekt. Sword and shield in particular is a goram powerhouse, can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to face down impossible odds with Sir Krubah and I can actually go toe to toe with them instead of either running or just abusing overpowered dodge mechanics like other characters (spamming sideways dodge and left click until everything is dead). With the ol sword and board it’s all about timing and attack choice, and during the BBB it got buffed to where you can be a lot more selective and use heavy attacks from further in the chain without having to cycle through all of them. So SnS is in a pretty good place. Same goes for axe and shield I have heard but I haven’t really played it.

Hammer/mace and shield still leave something to be desired. After getting some tips from folks on here I’ve learned to play them with acceptable effectiveness for most situations, but they just… aren’t as good. They feel worse at crowd control than the sword and shield especially against a mixed horde, in large part because the shield bash is gated behind other attacks. Since CC is their whole shtick they really should be able to access the bash more quickly.

I really like your ideas about adding some new mechanics to shields, like an extra cool down ability to be able to block unblockable attacks, being able to temporarily put it down, that kind of thing. Putting shield bash on weapon special would be cool, or just something on weapon special… (please devs, use weapon special for more than two weapons). I would just say that shields should get buffed in their defensive and “hold a defensive position” abilities, not in dodge or movement. Please keep them actually feeling like big heavy shields.

Curious to see how elf shield gets implemented, makes for her to be more mobile with it but could be a little OP. Time will tell!

5 Likes

Some of these more outlandish ideas are fine, but we’re missing some of the most basic things that could “fix” shields.

Firstly, They BLOCK overheads properly. that’s what a shield is for - blocking. A CW overhead should be blocked and possibly stagger you, but it should prevent damage.
Secondly, they BLOCK boss attacks better, like the Spawn triple-run-towards-you slams, or the Roger 1h overhead. I think a trolls overhead and the Roger 2h overhead should remove all stamina but still cause minimal damage.
Thirdly they should BLOCK hookrats and Gutter Runners if you’re facing them and blocking.

If we’re adding anything I’d like to see a Wallop-Your-Shield-To-Get-Agro on the weapon special button, pulling a couple of armoured enemies onto the player.

I still think that the 1.3 patch making enemies effectively ignore you while dodging has trivialised a lot of the enemies and launched some classes to God Tier, so that blocking in general is fairly pointless and until something happens to remove the braindead-effectiveness of dodging then shields will always take a back seat.

Make Blocking Great Again? Shield Wall?..

6 Likes

Shield weapons always will be bad untill they have reasonable dodge range and amount.

Blocking is good but of all specials you can only block gunner, and not for land cause there also will be some slaves hotting you same time.

And with your horrible 0.85 range and 1 effective dodge you will be screwed as long as 2 specials aiming for your butt. So either mobility should be boosted, and I dont mind it, or some wierd stuff like blocking hook/ grab/pounce.

If there’s a vote, I vote for mobility.
0,9 dodge range and 2 effective dodges at least. Something similar to 2h hammer.

Other wierd thing about shields. Why there’s a shield bash and a push at the same time? It had some sense until stamina regen was buffed by 100% and delay after push was removed. Now it makes no sense. I think FS should just straight delete current push, and replace it with shield bash, so heavy attacks free from shield bash.

2 Likes

Just to clarify, blocking can stop gutter runners, well, block push can. It’s a git gud skill you kind of need to practice, but you can do it with all weapons. Just as the gutter runner is about to pounce you, block push and you will knock him to the ground in front of you.

I ll never try it in pug with 150 ping
Half of time i get pounced mid dodge animation, like literally im a middle of where I started to where i go

150 ping is not bad though. Gotta remember it’s based on the hosts FPS as well. The host dropping to 30 FPS can drop the ping by 60ms. It doesn’t just take into account latency. I can play with Aussies from Sweden and get around 110-160 ping.

Right, but I think the argument is that shields should be able to simply block the runner, so he just bounces off the shield. I’d like to see this change as well.

3 Likes
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