Shield Buffs before/when Wind of Magic DLC comes out

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
22

I think that allowing shields to completely and simply block Slavers’ hooks and Assassins’ pounces would be a too strong of an ability, simplifying and trivialising those specials pretty much completely, so it would need a limitation (beyond just “need to be facing the enemy”, as that’s pretty much the default state anyway). The first thing that comes to mind is needing to use the Parry timing, even if that Trait isn’t on the weapon. It would still be more reliable than pushing (or simply hitting an enemy) and very much learnable, but would require still some skill to pull off instead of just standing behind a barrier.

While I said I’d prefer more options for blocking to increased mobility, I don’t want the shields to turn into a full-on mobile cover one can stand behind all the time. That’d just break the pacing, and would be incredibly boring to boot. Requiring timing to be used for blocking some of the more unusual stuff could accomplish making a wider variety of attacks blockable (still, only with shields) but wouldn’t particularly reward a static style.

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23

I kind of see that more of an problematic thing and kinda gimmicky instead of making the shields noticeably better.
Say if shields were ever to become meta would it be too strong then ?

24

Alternatively, they could adjust some talents for FK and IB,the other two classes that are built for shields. IB in particular could really use some.

25

Very good idea imo. Block on timing can work

And something like 2 stamina shields per actually blocking is needed. Otherwise you pounced/grabbed

26

Being able to attack while blocking like rapistol would be cool.

Could also be tied to weapon special button.

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27

This is the core misconception that has ruined shield balance. They DONT HAVE ANY EXTRA DEFENSE. So they get some more stamina… what’s that get you? Blocking is never your first line of defense, it’s the “oh crap I’m about to take an overhead” button. Mobility is the first line of defense for every career, and that means shields are WORSE at defense then every other weapon!

I suppose they can block Ratling Gunners, but that’s generally useless. Occasionally it saves a few HP during Rasknitt fight, but that’s the best I’ve gotten out of it.

What shields do have to offer is control. The push is very strong, and the shield bash move is the strongest stun in the game. A shield user can stun, push, and herd a horde any where and how he wants for as long as he wants. But what’s the use in that? Equip almost any other weapon and just KILL the horde in the same time!

IMO, shields need a complete overhaul. They should be slightly, but only slightly, less damage then other weapons. They also need to dodge just as well as other weapons, but perhaps only have 1 or 2 dodge count (on another note: the penalty for using all your dodges should be higher, it’s kind of pointless atm)

Krubers Sword+Shield does this really well, with the high damage stab combo being only single target, and the anti-horde light attacks ramp up damage with each attack so you have to do a complete 3-strike combo to get decent DPS. You have to pick an attack mode and commit to it, and give up the other attacks until your combo is done. It only gets 1 dodge, but if that dodge was full distance it would be pretty much a perfect weapon. Use this as the baseline for rebalancing the other shields.

Alternately, go all-in on the control angle. If the shield bash could taunt bosses, CW, and stormvermin, it would be valuable. Unfortunately, those are the very enemies that resist being controlled! Who cares how well it can herd slave rats? Control isn’t needed on that encounter. It’s needed on the elites and minibosses. Make shields able to taunt/control those fights, and you’ll start to see them being used.

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28

Control is defense. I think the idea that shields are mainly for blocking is a misconception. Stamina is used less for blocking than it is as ammo for pushes and pushstabs. With all the CC you’re putting out just from the combos that make up the core of your game, most things can’t even swing at you.

I’d rather not see the dodge touched. Shield gameplay is unique because the low dodge forces a primary reliance on CC as a survival and offense tool. It would suck to lose that.

I do think they need some buffs before the new difficulty. They’re really tough to use in the mod difficulties as it is.

3 Likes
29

Attack is damage + stagger. Stagger is control. Control is defense. → Attack is defense.

Point is, all weapons can attack, all weapons can block, and even all of them can push. Question is dodge. 1 effective dodge never gonna be good, if the conception of shield stays the same. That piece of metal in your left hand literally provides nothing special. Yes, you can slam shiet out of mob, but heck, every 90* angle weapon is just enough for clearing mob.

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30

One effective dodge is all you need when you’ve got CC falling out of your arse everywhere you go, especially with the ridiculous dodge window we have right now.

You’re right that dodge is the problem. The problem is that most other weapons have too much of it.

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31

You better think of what you say.
Damage is also a problem. Other weapons have too much of it.
Effective block/push angle is a problem. Other weapons have too much of it.
Versatality is a problem. Other weapons are too versatile.

Lets just delete all weapons except shields and Sienna’s dagger.

1 Like
32

I think you’re the one who needs to think about what they’re saying. It’s a question of balance.

There’s nothing wrong with high damage if the weapon has meaningful weaknesses to balance that out. I think it’s fine that S+S and A+S have lower damage, considering their clear CC superiority.
Effective block/push angle has little to no effect on today’s gameplay because pushing and blocking are so far behind dodge that they might as well not exist most of the time. Outside of shields, of course.
Versatility is also fine. The problem is where weapons do EVERYTHING too well. Is it really OK that so many weapons can spam m1 to victory and never worry about getting hit because their high dodge stats makes them basically unhittable?

Edit: I should probably say that I’m excluding hammer and mace shield types. They’re so desperately in need of a rework that putting them together with the other shield types isn’t going to go anywhere productive.

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33

BT1555304204397

God pls stop it

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34

My IB’s trusty 2h Hammer does the same. So does his 2h Axe. So does his 1h Hammer. So does his Dual Hammers. So does Kruber/Sienna’s 1h Sword. So does Salty’s Flail. So does Kerillian’s Glaive. I’m probably missing a few, but all of those have lots of stagger and do great damage as well.

Every weapon can push, some more effectively then others. Every weapon can stun, some more effectively then others. The only thing shield offers is a matter of degrees; the thing is, in exchange for a small buff to CC (that other weapons can still do) there’s a massive loss of both damage and mobility. There’s no way that trade is worth it; shields just don’t bring anything to the field that other weapons don’t.

Either shields need to bring something new (like being able to taunt monsters), or they need to be comparable enough to other weapons to be realistic options.

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35

lmao you’re literally arguing that shields should get more dodge because they’re bad without it. So what is it, do they need more dodge to be good, or is ‘dodge spam to victory’ a meme?

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36

No, it is your awarness level. Dodge is so good in your words, that push and block might have not exist. And Im lmao of it. You know that thing, called hyperdensity? You know that most weapons capable of staggering one maradeur+ one fanatic per light swing? You know that enemies have running attacks? You know that enemies tend to flank and hit you out of effective block angle? Thats how people get knocked down during ambush in a pug.

They dont hug the walls to protect their backs.

I run to the horde SMOrc, I swing 1 time SMOrc I dodge SMOrc I get downed

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37

The game is so good, it provides all kind of situation. Straight hordes in open fields. Ambushes in corridors, bosses on rooftops and arenas, but you trying holding your weapon with left hand for aesthetics.

Imagine your hand holding a weapon. You are looking at your grip.
If you have “dodge weapon”, your thumb is a dodge, forefinger is damage and ringfinger is push and block.
If you have “shield weapon”, your overgrown thumb is push and block, but instead of forefinger and ringfinger you have two littlefingers, and one of them (dodge) is half eaten by rat.

You get it now? There’s a meta, if you wish to call it so. Game have rules, which you have adopt to. And current best way is to use 3 fingers, instead of 2 and a half, no matter how big is the thumb.

And unless new expansion will bring damn ninja archers shooting you to the head from the next map there is just no reason in having such big thumb for lulz.

38

Remember dual daggers? They had bick dig damage, giant amound of dodge and half eaten littlefinger push/block. Luckily for HM and Sjade they were capable of levelimg lack of block/push with their ultimates.
Todays dual daggers - no bick dig damage - elves no longer interested.

39

Oh yeah, there are plenty of weapons that have great stagger, I’m not arguing there. What I’m saying is that CC’ing is easier, safer and more reliable with a shield than with any other weapons and that this makes it much easier to avoid damage with them without needing to rely so heavily on dodging. That mostly makes up for their lower than average damage output potential, imo.

That is, until you’re playing deathwish or onslaught or something, but I’m not talking about those because they’re specifically designed to ramp up the difficulty far beyond what we can expect in the main game, at least for now.

I’d like to see them get buffed with more utility. Just throwing out an example off the top of my head: Blocking an enemy hit might make that enemy more susceptible to CC. For example, a well timed block against a CW swing might make your next slam against it powerful enough to knock it down. That would emphasise their role as a control weapon and give them something useful to do when the difficulty gets bumped up without compromising their unique identity.

On the topic of general shield weapon buffs, it’s hard to say at this stage whether these would make the elf shield super powerful. We don’t know yet what its moveset will be like, so it’s entirely possible that it’ll end up like H+S and M+S and be bad, even with all of HM’s talents, skills and passives that seem to have been designed to cover for shield’s weaknesses.

@mr_sp1ce
Yes, dodge really is that good, and I think you’ll have trouble finding many people who disagree.

2 Likes
40

Shields do need buffs, its just an maiden being too strong with it. Though shouldn’t give less advantages to shild n’ spear, instead why not rework handmaiden. Her current role seems to be the vanguard protecter yet she lacks damage resistance and mostly focused to mobility. Make only elf shield bad will cause problems to waystalker and shade too.

41

The idea that shields don’t need more mobility because of their unique playstyle and CC is generally understandable, but only if we don’t include enemies that cannot be kept CC’d and require a minimum amount of dodge distance to be consistently dodged.

As it stands, running Troll overheads can NOT be consistently dodged with the weapons that suffer from -20% dodge distance (Shields & 2H Hammer). Chaos Spawn grab is also close to being in the same category, requiring a flawless back-left-diagonal dodge and sometimes rven that isn’t enough.

Either you increase their dodge range so that they can consistently dodge bosses lile the other weapons, or you give them some other tool like perfectly timing a block on these attacks makes them deal no damage/not grab you.

As it stands playing shields is a frustrating experience because of the way some enemies are designed in this game and how strong the current dodge meta is.

4 Likes