Compared to 1h Axe. Anyway, you just don’t understand, DnD are so OP! They 1-shot any creature, they have great horde clear and little to no drawbacks, if you disagree you are just noob, gitgut!
I used the same logic saying that Kruber’s 1h-Sword is good, do you agree that it’s by any means decent weapon for a legend difficulty? If you agree with it then OK, we have just too different POVs on what’s good and bad on leg.
While the Dual Daggers are certainly better against hordes than some people claim, they are not without troubles. Dodge dancing takes skill, especially when you need to keep yourself placed well to both help and be helped by your teammates. They lack the utility of using Infiltrate to instantly slay multiple low-level enemies (which some would consider underutilizing the skill), and are somewhat slower to utilize backstabs (and through that, Bloodfletcher) than, say Dual Swords. And while their mobility does allow the user to stay out of harm’s way and their efficiency (in skilled hands) allows a lot of temp health, any hits you take you still feel hard. And their short reach means that you need to utilize that mobility to avoid taking hits. There are plenty of tradeoffs, most of which can be mitigated by high player skill. As with everything else in this game. A skilled player can make the Hammer and Shield work, and even I think that’s pretty much the worst melee weapon in the game right now.
Of course, but the same skilled player will be much more effective by using a more effective weapon. Yes there are trade offs, like they should be, but it seems like Elf has a kit that allows her to already easily deal with any situation and I love that about her the most, but she doesn’t need insane boss/patrol damage on top of that.
I understand that there’s a higher learning curve with shade than with pyro for example, but sooner or later people will reach that skill ceiling - which to be fair isn’t that high to begin with. We’re just postponing the inevitable.
So that’s the arbitrary line, huh?
Go right ahead and ignore the posts where I specifically point to daggers and the damage multiplier, and do you not see the irony when you use words like cancur against people that disagree with you?
Wow.
Get a mirror, my friend.
Yes, it’s decent. Moreover it is better than SnS to some extend. I don’t play it enough to say if it’s better or worse for clearing waves, but its 3rd light attack deals 10! armor damage, so you can kill SV pretty fast with 4 light combos, or even faster if you get those overhead headshots or crits.
At this point I’m convinced you’re just trying to argue for the sake of it.
A lot of you are saying the damage multiplier for dual weapons is too high. You don’t realize that it doesn’t actually matter? They could double or triple what you see and nothing would change. They could half it and nothing would change. The reason being is because the damage increase is applied to the first strike of each weapon(so dual weapons get to hit up to 2 targets, hence being able to kill two Chaos Warriors if you strike properly). You’re simply over-killing the same stuff. “But but… bosses!”. Bosses have a cap on how much damage a player can inflict on them in a single instance of damage. That’s why the many numbers you see on dual weapons don’t matter as much as people in this thread think. The active is doing exactly as intended for both elites and bosses. Shade can kill elites effectively in a periodic manner and she does a chunk of damage against bosses.
I can’t believe this thread is still going. OP and the people agreeing with OP have been regurgitating the same arguments that have been time and again refuted with far more evidence given by numerous people in this thread.
That’s all this and the previous Shade thread were: a loop. People advocating Shade nerfs can’t give substantial enough evidence to support a nerf but continue to argue for one with the same arguments. The same arguments that have been refuted many times over by the more educated and less biased(in regards to this subject) players.
Wanting to water down and unbalance a game because it isn’t what you want is asinine; even moreso to ignore the mound of evidence supporting why it’s currently in a good state for the moment.
Same could be said for you. There is no objective reasoning from you and your handful of supporters for this petition. You completely brush over or deny the substantial evidence provided by other players. People are simply sick of the same biased statements you and a few others are regurgitating. That, among reasons like starting another of the same thread(e.g. Shade), is why their responses to you have become increasingly intolerant.
Didn’t read full topic, but saw many people are saying that Shade is killing bosses too fast (Compare with BH and Pyro even). Do people forget that BH and Pyro, first - ranged classes, and second - can stun with their ults?
A lot of comments on such a redundant thread xD
The ability to light tap a CW with daggers and kill it is too strong. Proper position should be rewarded and the ability shouldn’t be just a mindless nuke on a negligible cooldown. The requirement to score a headshot vs one of the toughest enemies in the game (armor wise), doesn’t seem so out of this world.
Conc pot+ daggers = 90% of boss HP gone and that’s without extra power. You can easily test it out yourself with mods. That’s more than a chunk.
Pugs already freeze and wipe on bosess because they have no idea how to handle them (paired up with hordes) unless they’re able to delete them within seconds. Encouraging these types of builds won’t improve how people play, which will sooner or later completely discourage people from even attempting legend quick play with randoms, so most of them will probably find another game to play.
I provided plenty of reason and the main counterargument seems to be that legend is too hard as it is. If people disagree that the elf already has a kit that enables her to do everything in the game without real weaknesses then I guess they haven’t yet surpassed the very reasonable skill barrier. She’s very decent vs everything unlike a lot of other classes, but the ability to just delete the highest threats is ridiculous and pushes her way over the edge.
Properly built BH and Pyro are another can of worms that also needs to be tackled, but I chose to focus on the Shade because I have more experience with her since she’s more fun to play than mostly ranged classes.
It’s applied to the whole strike as before.
Try it yourself if you don’t believe me or the quote.
Not anymore. They don’t have damage caps, at least for melee now. They now have multiplier caps:
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Ohh, but there is one differance vs the shade.
Shade will never be targeted during the boss fight. Not of boss, not of adds. Since you attack and active next ult directly.
There is an extremly short period after the attack when you can get targeted
by the boss, so you do a dodge so the one will swing will not hit you.
All the others will pull agro, from bosses and ads and need to deal with that,
No, not at all, at least not in the sense that I argue for arguing’s sake, but your whole point boils down to that you like Keri for her versatility, but THAT particular aspect she shouldn’t have access to. That is arbitrary and not a producte base for this discussion. You obviously are a capable Keri player, but I think this is the reason why your position is so biased, and it is the same as it was with the huntsman and is with almost any cry for nerfs: experienced players expecting the game to be the same thrill as it was 500 hours ago. Let it go, it’s never coming back. Maybe Shade is too strong, maybe she isn’t, but your whole argument is based on personal preference and not really any kind of “big picture”, for my reasoning see above. You absolutely blow shade’s capability out of proportion, she isn’t the best elite killer, she isn’t the best CC, she isn’t the best range, she is just very versatile and can be geared towards being the best boss killer. A good RV or HS will still absolutely shred anything armoured (or heck, have you ever seen a RV and HS with handguns as a duo? Virtually untouchable by anything armoured, patrols, chaos patrols and still very reasonable boss damage), a good Slayer also chews through elites and has probably the best melee CC in the game. Her ability to facestab CW reliably is just out of the ordinary because she can pick her fights and it is reliabl, she can pick priority targets the rest of the group cannot reach.
I absolutely get what you are saying, you entertain that bosses should be super menacing encounters that threaten the whole team. Okay, fine by me, then make them more interesting to fight and more dangerous in their own right.
I simply don’t see the appeal of that whole dodge-dance-juggling and dodging the same 2.5 attack patterns again and again and again. To me, the boss isn’t that special of an enemy, it is just a change of pace to the game and as I have stated, the game objetively PRESSURES you into dispatching the boss fast because it only becomes dangerous is armoured elites, hordes and specials start piling up, not counting boss spawns that are in VERY tight quarters, those are always more threatening.
That doesn’t mean I am advocating for the game being easier, Legend being too hard (as you never fail to point out that this is the whole argument of people “defending” Shade, WHICH IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE) or anything difficulty wise. But please stop pretending that anything in this game is suuuuuper intricately designed and every boss fight is on par with the design on Cuphead. The game is, by the very definition of its title, about hordes of enemies. The boss does stand out, no question. I actually see more of a problem with Lords being absolutely murdered (at which Shade is actually not that great, that goes again to the very evil ranged meta. I have played rounds where good old burbie died before he could spawn the first mobs), but those are the true bosses of the game. The random bosses are just larger shovel-ware and I don’t see the appeal of fighting them longer than necessary just so everyone can pat themselves on the back and say “Yay, I also did 200 boss damage!” I have never seen a DD Shade outperform anybody in any aspect other than boss damage and MAYBE elite kills, depending on party composition. Maybe you are an absoluteyl godlike DD Shade, then more power to you, but that is even more proof that you are not the norm to go by. You are complaining about a very specific build that is geared towards doing exactly what it is supposed to. Shade just gets the extra bonus because she melts bosses in melee and IS at greater risk, but there are so many setups are are just marginally worse at killing bosses at RANGE that I don’t see the problem with Shade. Like I said, I have a handfull of carreers that do boss killing “on the side” against only one faction of bosses (chaos, duh) and bosses rarely live longer than maybe 15 to 20 seconds if everything goes well.
At the end of the day, it is like you’ve precisely stated, it is about what the devs want to do with the game. I like the idea of powerfull heroes overcoming their obstacles and killing lots of stuff and I absolutely celebrate when a boss just gets destroyed because it means we are doing something right. The game is, by and large, in a good place difficulty-wise. I’d like the challenge to be more varied, but again, after pumping literally hundreds of hours into the game, my expectation is to win most of my games. Everything else would indeed indicate a challenge that is mostly based on RNG and arbitrarily set walls.