i don’t know about you guys, but…
i opened the forum, saw the notifications about followed threads having more posts, but seriously: TLDR.
the one impression i get is that many need to learn the art of ignoring people.
i play since the beta and have just 2 people on my ignore list because those were sabotaging the game.
someone having said what? honestly, i don’t remember, and i don’t give a damn.
you don’t like how someone plays? get out and find a better team.
someone has like 2x my damage on the scoreboard? the better for him. maybe i should take notes. he can print that scoreboard and nail it to the wall for all i care.
the only problem with scoreboards imo is when they make people play differently than normal just for the glory of higher numbers, and this ends badly more often than not.
i dont see where a different economy makes for a softer upbringing but to be fair i aint no expert on that subject.
so they are wrong and the scoreboard proves it afterwards based on their non-contribution.
i can shout at the top of my lungs to knock out mike tyson in one punch, doesn´t make it true though
come to think of it, one time i did the same. after finally going down, having put the dude in question up on his feet 5-6 times (yes it was my decision to not write him off, shame on me) i suggested him reconsidering the choice of difficulty.
i played with the situation of running low on ressources and investing chunks of mine to put back into the flow of the game a “questionable contributer” and it was my fault
guilty as charged, sah.
but since this is about finding a compromise:
akin the the weapon mastery visual menue, one could add the same for weaponry performance in terms of damage / kills etc, seperated from the actual board.
i can already compare the stats of the weapons at the push of a button, why not have a summary of the last 50-100 matches for said weapon as a bar chart ?
keep the “picked people up”, medpacks dropped, buttons pushed etc in the collective board but display this performance in my private menue.
not that others care if i killed 10 times more elites in one hit with my branx than bully I, but my build/loadout will surely profit from it.
its not you that needs to push to the limit its the test that does.
to take the driving metaphor further , an easy drive into town to pick something up from the shops on a sunny day , you can bring your A game you can GTA the hell out of that. but does that performance tell you anything about the cars max handling? the limit the suspension can handle?
how a wet road affects your braking? no everything you learn on that trip has no bearing on the capability of the car just its performance on that run.
the test needs to be tailored to the subject and what aspects you wish to test you need to find the point it can not go beyond then you know capacity
your controlling too few elements and repeating too few times the tests is not consistent enough and your not even separating out each map you wont get accurate numbers, but its all beside the point your not measuring anything meaningful.
in that example it sounds like your team is pushed but your not , but its a good point to make, now imagine a game when your exactly the same but your team is replaced by other equally as good players. all of a sudden you go from over 3X what each other does to doing equal , what if they were better than you and now all of sudden your doing half of what anyone else does but your still good enough to trivialise the difficulty.
what are you learning from such wide ranging results? this is the point even if you remain constant and the map remains constant and performance remains constant (none do btw) your still only a tiny part of the whole cake
and for the pickaxe no , your making a false assumption, you may simply not have mastered the karsolos to the same degree you have the branx , or your other weapon may be more useful with the branx or your build might favour the branx. and that’s assuming you got accurate reliable average results from the tests (odds are you didnt).
my point simply was that actually high numbers are not a positive sign , low numbers are but if the team is clearing fast and easy then your not measuring how many you can handle your measuring who can kill what is there first.
and that is not just different its actively bad. it makes people focus on speed of the first few kills in each group not in a robust ability to handle a high volume at once. the revolver is a case in point loved by scoreboard users as it absolutely spanks at securing kills but you take the 5 shots then your reloading. it has no sustain but a scoreboard just measuring performance of a team not pushed doesn’t care and wont reflect that. that cost is not on the board.
heres a bonus point in a co op game its not a simple case of taking kills you can there are lots of times in DT when you actively should not kill some thing , shooting through someone in melee to kill the elite they are fighting for example your basically just wasting their time making buffs drop off and denying them sustain. there very much are bad kills in DT but they still show up as a 2 point swing on the scoreboard.
while my playtime is limited due to 10 hour shifts, so far my comparison pool consists of 710+ recorded matches, in large chunks of the same loadout/skill tree.
lets say roughly 70-100 matches shield & kickback, some 100 butcher III & ripper V, and so on and so forth.
90% auric maelstrom with modifiers categorized in playlists (need to update them, memo to myself)
and from the first to last video i see a clear and steady improvement up to clutching and carrying often times.
what the scoreboard helped me with is ditching a loadout that, as fun as it might have been, wasnt efficient to push through the next level of proficiency.
i increased my performance by a large amount, if that aint “meaningful” i dont know what is.
not knowing those numbers would have left me in the “i m doing ok” matrix pod when in reality others did more with the same ressources to greater success.
killing stuff is why matches get won in the end.
not the useless farming of endless hordes but clear the screen before your mate bites the dust cause he cant handle it-killing.
after that you can auspex, push buttons etc. but without getting stuff dead none of those functions can proceed.
its like trying to win a knockout match by evading in circles, one time you need to throw punches.
to clench my buttcheeks, chuck a couple energy drinks and up my performance so i am not the runt of the litter.
if they can do it, so can i and even if we reached godhood and 25%x4 equal performance it was up to me to generate that 25% and not be content with “what is”
well ive heard that exact argument used to deny climate change is even a thing.
but no im saying is more “there are too many variables to climate change we cant accurately say what the changes will be.”
i don’t know how old you are but back in the 80’s we had a climate issue a hole growing in the ozone , turned out it was caused by Chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) , the problem was identified the data was compiled a solution was simple (stop using them) , we did and 40 years later that hole is all but gone , a simple problem one cause one solution easy.
its a good allegory for DT which is like climate change in it has a huge number of variables its impossible to predict a run of DT just like we cant predict climate change, look at all the university man hours all the governmental work all the research world wide going into climate change and there is no consensus about what is going to happen when , but a scoreboard in darktide , rocksolid source of info apparently
but to your point so you got no special kills with your special hunter build that proves what? only that someone else got them first you could have a perfectly fine build it was just a bit slower , infact your build could be better in all regards except that other build was just a little faster so they got them first. maybe you got all the specials what is that telling you? maybe no one else had a special hunter build, maybe they had beter slower builds.
when you only control 25% of the input how can you know the relevance of that in the whole 100? especially as here we have no context for the other 75% and what they bring.
information always comes through the lense of the bias of the one presenting it over my life time i have come to realise the only thing you can reliably divine from any statistical data is the agenda of those that compiled it.
and i didnt forget it just doesnt matter again your measuring performance not capacity and your comparing it relative to unknowns , your in a mini cooper there in a f1 car and a lorry which is best? depends on the test doesnt it. if your just asked to go around town and go to the shops your mini rocks, moving cargo across the continent? less so and unless you put it on a race track designed for it that f1 car is near useless. so what are you learning?
your one example " I notice that we’re a melee heavy group" is something you tell without a scoreboard before the run starts. and even if you couldn’t tell from the lobby and had to play it the scoreboard is in no way required to divine you lacked range.
well i thought i did , i guess i need enlightening about how they would be useful here, what would you weight on an what data would you be deciding which weights to apply?
but if people are only focusing on those points maybe they sacrifice the non measured to meet those criteria . like schools teaching the tests, police misrepresenting crimes to make less serious , everyone jukes the stats everyone has an ego everyone wants to win.
again none of the questions you ask actually require a scoreboard , you have taken several steps back looking at the run in a more holistic maner , the data is not right but in the long run averages you can get a feel sort of thing. i posit you are basically arguing the scoreboard gives you no more information that just paying attention to what was easy/hard for you during standard gameplay, in an effort to stick to things a scoreboard can achieve you have accidentally walked over the line.
and i would go further as the scoreboard lacks any filter to know which data matters its actually misleading.
ok, what does the word "tend "mean your dangerously close to claiming flipping a head makes tails more likely , stas is not thermal dynamis nature may abhor a vacuum stats are fine with it.
but your the data expert you tell me in the case of flipping a 2 sided coin that has a 50/50 distribution between its 2 possible outcomes how many runs do you think you need to do to get your expectation of being within a decent margin of 50/50 distribution , how many trials would you say?
same with Darktide. every moment of every game any one of 4 caharcters might be moving shooting dodging reloading. how many ai agents interacting in how many ways across how long a time how many zeros do you think the number of permutations has? how many times would you have to repeat that trial to get data you would call relaible? within an acceptable margin of error? now lets all lament you only get 1.
well i could point to every single post in this thread every thread in every forum and ask you to read what they mention using the scoreboard for and what they measure but frankly im feeling like your asking me to prove water is wet, wtf else do they use it for?
but instead ill just say
This is a completely biased argument. You “think” what confirms your bias
Always disliked this argument, it always feels that the information that people gather doesn’t matter since it is “incomplete”… and that then feels like people are unable to learn how to interpret the information that they’ve gathered or that they are unable to get to the required amount so that the information start mattering, so that they can improve.
If a player where to be able to use scoreboard information and see that during the last 50 or so matches, they have taken on average over a 1000 health damage (on a non-Ogryn character), with a good amount of dogs and netters getting them, is that not information that they can use to see that they might be in over their heads with the current difficulty level that they’ve chosen.
And while this might seem like obvious information, you can readily see examples of people not understanding what is required of them to be a productive teammate. If I’d have to guess why, I’d say that people are bad a self reflection and think that is normal that they should die three to four times each given match.
Not saying that you are completely wrong, however some weapons are just better then others. Or is it that my “mastery” of the Power Maul is the reason that I do more damage with the Pickaxes?
I don’t think you’re engaging in a bad-faith argument but I don’t think I can continue to further engage with you on this.
If you’ve boiled down the extreme amount of data, knowledge and concerted effort that was required by the international scientific community to “big hole, plug big hole, no more problem”… come on…
I don’t agree that there’s been an ongoing debate since day 1. That just sounds like the argument someone would make if you wanted one.
If there was a personal ‘scoreboard’ to see how you compared to your last X games I guess that could be useful, though I think the variables game to game would make it near useless.
This is a PvE Coop game. I dont really need to know data on how well another player did or didnt do in that one game you played with them before going on to the next random PUG. It’s irrelevant. And if you’re playing consistently with a group of friends do you really need to throw it in their face that you’re better than they are? Despite what people say, toxicity will build. We’re humans. Better to focus on just playing the game.
personally I never had the necessity of having a scoreboard to understand if a build works or how I performed. because playing since left 4 dead and coop genre is really my fav genre.
people being 1st in few things, but then going down and lose anyway.
compared to the one that may have performed not high as others, but being 1st in clutching and saving the game, the thing that matters more, where the skill is visible at least, but not written in any scoreboard.
but since i’m not really against,
i’m okay for some compromise for the people that want “full information”, a scoreboard being post game. even though it would be a boring overview because something extra to skip.
at this point i don’t even think is a battle between toxicity or non toxicity anyway.
is more about
players thinking that if people are against scoreboard: are bad/afraid of getting a backleash
vs.
players thinking that if people needs to use a scoreboard: they are not aware of their performance by instinct, and thefore lacks of understanding, coop interactions etc.
just a big example, but thin difference. and both have their own point which is fair
also, there are already 2 mods about scoreboards with countless plugins, i don’t really understand the necessity to add one in game.
even though it may not promote toxicity, people would still play for the scoreboard and chasing and playing in a way, where they just think about only for the score.
so while it may not promote it, it could do indirectly, but obviously not all are like that.
but some players seeing numbers being big, it also make some players being ego centric and playing in a certain way that it could be boring.
many speedrunners with knife, usually have scoreboard etc.
people that run ahead to die, they use that just promotes bad cooperation.
and also scoreboard always misleading, even the current mods by not giving the right information…
Why not just have a “Pat everyone on the back” screen that just shows who did what very well? Like accolades:
Emperor’s Mercy: Rescued the most downed teammates.
Vindicare Assassin:Killed the most elites.
Hand of the Emperor: Most damage to the Boss.
Righteous Fury: Most accurate with ranged attacks
Emperor’s Chosen: No deaths
And other such thematic accolades (horde slayer, melee dmg, least damage, least health taken, etc., etc.) for other feats of strength. The script/program would pick the accolade by what the player leads the most by in magnitude compared to other players, but they just get one accolade to display. Perhaps, even earning these accolades multiple times leads to permanent titles?
I don’t like scoreboards because I hate the idea of comparing myself to others. I play PvE Co-Op to avoid competition (Even this game has you competing for Elites/specials to a point, but our goals are united).
You could even get more detailed info while at the Mourningstar so you don’t feel like you have to compare yourself to others. It just records what you did by mission.
The basic scoreboard mod doesn’t provide much data, but Ovenproof addon, and Power DI provide a LOT of data, and are fairly customisable.
I like that, as it allows me to figure out not only, apparently dreaded by some, “personal” performance, but whatever my build is working can it be improved. If you ever wondered how much stuff like bleed, fire damage or soulblaze contributes to your overall damage output, whatever you could attempt to change some damage talents or blessings for more utility/defensive options you are likely to find your answers on those scoreboards.
I wonder this all the freakin’ time, so it’s a very attractive benefit of granular scoreboards. Number one on my list is how much team toughness does my veteran generate with the toughness sharing talent??
Granted it’s probably overkill for the average user who doesn’t want to be bombarded with statistics, so maybe it’s better that this is a mod or at the very least optional!
But yeah, it’s hard enough to decipher the benefit of certain blessings in isolation (meat grinder) let alone in the thick of things.
One thing that would be interesting to see is more soft-factors that aren’t just putting bullets in thing. Stuff like how much ammo the Vet’s survivalist talent generated for the team, or how much damage Soften Them Up and Valuable Distraction from an Ogryn added to the team’s overall damage output.
The current scoreboards put a lot of emphasis on personally killing stuff, but not necessarily many other aspects of gameplay performance. I think my best “Scoreboard” performance ever was on a Gungryn build with a heavy stubber (where I got fed ammo the whole game and just shot my way through everything), but I feel like games are generally easier and more likely to result in a successful completion when running my tank shield build where the numbers usually show I contribute very little. There’s not much that’s capturing taunts, aggro held, passive damage contribution, resource regeneration, etc.
In no way does the Mod affect you, believing so…makes me question your opinions on most things.
The Mod gathers information and relays it to the mod holder. No where does it say anything or tell YOU anything or affect YOUR GAME if you do not have the mod.
just promotes bad cooperation.