Scoreboard Polling Results

[Index]

@CopperBack1

joy of playing the game?

@CopperBack1

they truly carried the game.

only “gripe” i got with that it is reading kinda mutually exclusive.

personally i dont play to “participate” or trot along.

in fact the enjoyment of the game comes from an almost linear increase of ingame performance and the demand for said increase never stops.

there’s always room for improvement, smoothing out movement patterns, getting more fluid/efficient through the map, inventing a faster pattern to deal with certain enemy constellations

(which to brittle first, who to stun/take out of the equation /trapper>dog>mutant>bomber>flamer etc)

so if i played at what i deemed “optimal” and see results being on par with my subjective perception aka most contributed in all regards, from dmg kills to mats collected and objectives fumbled/scanned AND having close to a 20 minute HISTG run in the process, i check those boxes off as job well done.

if however i fire on all cylinders, havent had a single slip in movement, aim or otherwise mechanical input but see people outperform me vastly, i take that as an incentive to see the gaps in either my loadout/talents or even playstyle.

and the result can never be a negative one for no one that wanted to grow, no matter the field/sports, was worse off for said kick in the butt.

said mindset isnt going to vanish if theres numbers shown or not.

the “issue” i think isnt the scoreboard per se but the difference between players with ambition and casuals.

and only then if casuals expect any kind of laurels or recognition despite having done nothing out of the ordinary.

usually the “big dogs” keep their fight within themselves, seeking to optimize and come out better.

but any kind of scoreboard reference so far came from the bottoms up, trying to excuse or obfuscate a mess-up.

never seen a top performer boast about his numbers, not in checks notes 915 matches uploaded to date.

those little snappers are the ones not putting their money where their mouth is, as with all aspects in life.

[MvMArcher]

@Warrak

Never understood the “it encourages toxicity” argument.

Stat chasing is a thing that happened a fair bit in vermintide and most other games that feature a scoreboard.

Why help the player that is getting overwhelmed when I can get a point in the revive stat after they have gone down?

Why cover the flank, when there are more enemies to kill in the front, even though the 3 other players already got it covered?

Why embolden these types of behaivors through a scoreboard that pleases our monkey brain with “haha funny number goes up”?

@Warrak

Why would I care if someone said “you didn’t kill enough lesser enemies” if I 50 more disabler kills than them.

But what if you objectively didn’t play well that match, what if you didn’t have those 50 more disabler kills??
Why give “ammunition” to the players that are already behaving in a toxic manner?

While it is easy to say that negative comments don’t affect you, the truth of the matter is that it does affect a large percentage of the worlds population.

I personally don’t care if a scoreboard is added or not, this was simply written to show how the statement “it encourages toxicity” isn’t entirely wrong.

Personally I would prefer a comprehensive stats page accessible somewhere in the mourningstar with a detailed breakdown of everything you did in a given match.

• Like how much damage did “insert talent” provide.
• How many knock-downs did I do with “insert ult”.
• How much uptime did I have with “weapon blessing”.
• etc…

[Riku]

“Toxic” isn’t a defined term, most people I’ve seen here tend to equate the word with getting insulted aka verbal abuse, but i don’t think fatshark ever disclosed what they meant with that statement in particular.

However, depending on who you ask, toxic behavior could be interpreted as unsportsmanlike behavior or even what another might see as banter or a bit of trolling.

imo it’s quite rare for non pvp games to develop overly negative tendencies to necessitate action from the developer side
of course how much tolerance you can afford is also based on a lot of factors, for example how difficult the game is aka how detrimental someone can be if he engages in those activities

[MvMArcher]

I wouldn’t put too much stock into the specific choice of words, whether it’s “toxic” or “toxicity” as you said it isn’t a defined term and what people read into it differs.

@Riku

imo it’s quite rare for non pvp games to develop overly negative tendencies to necessitate action from the developer side

Here the case is slightly different as inaction on fatsharks part (as in not making the scoreboard), is seen in their eyes as the better choice in reducing incidents that some might refer to as “toxic” behaivor.

Again we can simply look to vermintide 2 and see how many complaints were made about people chasing green circles, whether those complaints have any merit, I’ll let you decide for yourself.

And when the “solution” literally involves doing less work, why not grab it?

[Padds]

@Warrak

Never understood the “it encourages toxicity” argument.

well its a very convenient argument for pro scoreboard people to bring up . look at his thread its contained a long back and forth about the actual reasons some of us think scoreboard’s are bad in which toxicity doesn’t even come up but still it all gets ignored and it gets reduced down to the strawman of “toxicity” again

these are the actual concerns i myself have, (quoted from earlier in this thread)

@Padds

• It encourages competitive over co operative play.
• its based on two assumptions that are false, first that more kills = better but actually as a team gets better the kills go down. and second that getting a kill is only a positive event, also not true you can do a lot of damage to a team mate by taking a kill here.
• Its myopic and only what is measured will get managed.
• the board can not know or display the context of each kill. it measures performance not capacity. so more often its not a case of whose build and skill is capable of this result its a case of who got the kill first.

[CopperBack1]

@MvMArcher

Why give “ammunition” to the players that are already behaving in a toxic manner?

I think the scoreboard would just as easily give ammunition to prevent blame, the source is going to blame failure regardless with less stats it certainly is easier to scapegoat.

@MvMArcher

Here the case is slightly different as inaction on fatsharks part (as in not making the scoreboard), is seen in their eyes as the better choice in reducing incidents that some might refer to as “toxic” behaivor.

In part I would agree, but the lack of a scoreboard leads to no reason to stick around for a failure screen and thus to be a toxic rage rant at the end.

However from my experience, the amount of match leaving (rage quitting) drastically spikes and out right game leaving (alt F4) or even long term player retention may also be a subtle result of this loss in feature.

@MvMArcher

Again we can simply look to vermintide 2 and see how many complaints were made about people chasing green circles, whether those complaints have any merit, I’ll let you decide for yourself.

The lack of complaints about green circles here is obvious ( no green circles to complain about), but you still get some variations in speed runners / stealth / daggers and the counter no scoreboard threads. It seems about the same to me.

Cutting communication at failure screen would be best way to handle the toxic behavior while retaining more players, failure and frustration I think is its core cause. Avoiding the cause just leads to more failure and frustration with little visuals of how to improve and what was lacking.

[Murderer]

@Padds

well its a very convenient argument for pro scoreboard people to bring up . look at his thread its contained a long back and forth about the actual reasons some of us think scoreboard’s are bad in which toxicity doesn’t even come up but still it all gets ignored and it gets reduced down to the strawman of “toxicity” again

You tried saying that last thread already where the literal second post was someone saying it’s about toxicity. It’s actually interesting that you keep lying about this while accusing others of deception. Classic projection. Here’s the last time you did this:

@Padds

which anti scoreboard person in this thread mentioned toxicity?

there may have been one i havent checked but i bet most of the mentions are from pro scoreboard people bringing it up as if its the reason anyone could be against a scoreboard.

Where the second post in the thread was this huge writeup about scoreboards causing toxicity:

Poll Improved Scoreboard?

Absolutely not. Majority of people advocating for scoreboard on these forums are disgustingly toxic players looking for avenues to justify their contempt for those they consider lesser. We shouldn’t be enabling that. Here, exhibit one. Notice the amount of likes on this post, which is absolutely enormous given the size of this forum. All this ‘personal performance’ is just gaslighting, if you’ve been here for long enough you know perfectly well those people will stop hiding their actual views o…

So repeated dishonesty and false accusations of strawmanning aside your cited reasons are literally all just about player behavior. Does that not fall under “toxicity” too?

PS: There is a person claiming it causes toxicity in this very thread, too.

[Pirx]

Power DI

power di gives you that very comprehensive stat page, so you can track the efficiency of specific weapons vs specific enemies.

[Padds]

@Murderer

You tried saying that last thread already where the literal second post was someone saying it’s about toxicity. It’s actually interesting that you keep lying about this while accusing others of deception. Classic projection. Here’s the last time you did this:

you got me someone had brought up toxicity as a reason to not have the scoreboard.
i should of taken the time to check but i was short on time and decided to just roll the dice on it .

but my point was its so often brought up by anti scoreboard and its treated as the sole issue people bring up , there’s just a wilful refusal to address actual issues and instead to just cling to toxicity which we clearly agree isn’t the problem.

[Murderer]

@Padds

but my point was its so often brought up by anti scoreboard and its treated as the sole issue people bring up ,

You have yet to convince me that it’s not. What other argument against it is there that doesn’t boil down to “it would make player behavior bad”?

[morfin]

@MvMArcher

Why help the player that is getting overwhelmed when I can get a point in the revive stat after they have gone down?

Why cover the flank, when there are more enemies to kill in the front, even though the 3 other players already got it covered?

Why embolden these types of behaivors through a scoreboard that pleases our monkey brain with “haha funny number goes up”

funny how all that is already incentivized by “toxic” penance progress and needs no scoreboard to occur naturally huh?

[Index]

@Padds

It encourages competitive over co operative play.

i believe thinking

“cooperative game has an altruistic cooperative gameplay, willfully carried out by its players”

is a setup for disappointment.

yes darktide has 4 people playing against a.i, no teamkills or otherwise active mechanic that gives you benefits for throwing your mate to the wolves.

but thats about it, really.

of course we need to differentiate between gaming buddies/premades, which in itself is a tight knit cooperation based on real life relationship.

and randoms which are, lets be fair are ambient noise at best and a difficulty modifier at worst.

very rarely i see experts in the game and i every fkkin one for giving me a showcase to grow upon.

add to that the very nature of gaming “wanting to present yourself, your skill and your performance no matter pvp or pve” and you got a pretty solid layout from which to expect gameplay to… play out.

thats not to say being a ressource hogging, aggro dumping and never ressing cnt, just dont expect people to go out of their way or play mother theresa and slow down in order to keep draggers in the flow.

darktide rewards dopamine like no other pve game
i’ve encountered since the golden age of quake coop.

there was a time when we would completely bust quake 3 lan tournaments, buddy pirx and me.
against 8 people for we needed no one else.

one time we dragged along an “aquaintance” that was all puppy eyed to play with us next tournament.

truth be told we then played 2 vs 9 cause “our guy” was rather a points donor to the enemy and drain on our ressources.

not that it mattered much, if i recall correctly it was quake3dm6 with us finishing 210:35 with 25 going on account of our third wheel.

got them demos on a cd tower in the basement somewhere.

whats the point of that? sometimes you “agree to dead weight” and play despite the additional burden best you can and win instead of accomodating, putting yourself in a worse situation and end with a worse result, simple as.

these 210:35 / 2 1/3 vs 8 are matches we talk about on occasion almost 30 years later, with the same glee and laugh about those “opponents” that were so frustrated they typed “uits” instead of “/quit” for they couldnt leave fast enough afterwards.

this is gaming experience, not “kumbaya-salvation army”

so i really understand people getting carried away in their rush, their reward, their improvement while pushing the envelope and achieving what was “impossible” yesterday.

if a one off casual or a team doesnt keep up for that particular match, why should one forsake himself that experience when in the end the “carry” leads to exact the same win and the others being none the wiser anyways?

ideally, coop is 4 people putting 25% each on the table.

reality is one or two john darktide and two “extras”
and honestly, pulling a john darktide should make you feel all warm and fuzzy for the day

for i dont know about the whole mix of casuals and maybe 5% or less very skilled players, but if each of us would have a real honest look in the mirror, end of the day we feel good about where WE excelled and went above and beyond.

not picking up the same test dummy for the 7th time in the third room.

thats basic human nature and reason we got space travel instead of a bonfire and parasites out of our rear.

[Cerebrophage]

@Murderer

Two points that make this reasonable and I voted for the first option are that there’s so much dead time after a mission you might aswell show the board during it.

Or, we could have FS find a way to reduce the post-mission time.

@Murderer

I already have mine show mid mission

If you already have one, why do you need FS to create another?

@Molonious

I think the bigger problem with scoreboards is the type of play behavior they incentivize, particularly as it feels like 90% of what people look at is Kills and Damage, which isn’t necessarily reflective of effective performance and incentivizes some unhelpful behavior in terms of how players engage targets, a scoreboard that doesn’t just highlight the top end raw totals of these would probably be helpful. A player that concentrates on dealing with heavies for instance probably isn’t going to show the same raw numbers as a player who’s mowing all the muppet enemies, but is doing equally valuable work.

This is a great idea as it highlights the player’s focus. I’m curious about how challenging it would be to code and how complex the UI would be to navigate in order to view what they focused on.

@Padds

i would think the most likely answer is this data is incomplete. you have simply polled a small slice of the demographics feelings [opinions]

Agreed, the FS forums are definitely not where I would go to poll the player base.

@JDLS

or they have rationalized themselves into thinking a scoreboard would make the game worse.

Great point! The real question is: What is their overall philosophy for the game? If they aim for a casual experience while still accommodating hardcore players (like the Havocs), how does this decision align with that vision?

…What about implementing scoreboards specifically for Havocs? I’m all for compromises—let the hardcore players compete with each other while keeping the casual experience intact.

@Riku

1% vote.
results are 70%-30% in favor for implementing a scoreboard.
99% dont vote for various reasons

Question should FS consider catering to the less than 1%?

Exactly—that’s why FS forums aren’t the best place for polling.

@CopperBack1

This is a sampling of most dedicated players since it’s confined to forums. The continued correlations among different spaces and time of the 2023 results, if they are to be believed, suggest it’s more prevalent opinion for interested users.

Or, the players who don’t get harassed just for having a different opinion.

@Pumis

Devs time is better served by making actual content to the game than trying to bring scoreboard that you have as a mod anyway.

I think this is one of the strongest arguments in favor of having mods.

@Scipo0419

“dude look at all those headshots” or “I’m something of a ranged character myself”

Fair point, but then the other ranged character also ended up using more ammo just to prove himself—all because Jim-Bob wanted to step outside the typical expectations for his role. In this case, a Bleed Zealot focusing on ranged damage instead of melee, where their build naturally excels.

@weeping.moon

People should stop encouraging and forgiving devs doing less work.

Don’t want to see scores - ask for toggle off option. Having visible metrics is a platinum standart

I get where you’re coming from, and I can appreciate the value of having a built-in system. I also understand the counterargument that toxic players will be toxic regardless since scoreboards already exist in some form. However, I don’t see anything in this discussion that would genuinely incentivize Fatshark to implement such a change. There needs to be a compelling reason for them to do so.

To illustrate my point: Players should stop piling extra work onto FS when content is already being released at a slow drip, then berating them for not implementing every little feature they want.

If you want to see scores, just install or update the available mods.

@Headhunter

Here is the problem with only seeing your own score. Spawns are not fixed in count or enemy type per mission. It can vary by hundreds due to certain sections of mission being infinite horde until certain mechanics completed.

That’s actually a really good point. If every mission is different by the AI director, it doesn’t really give you an accurate average. Your average would fluctuate regardless of how well you performed.

@Padds

darktide games as it stand end with about as much excitement and fanfare as a damp fart.

I suppose that depends on how much you put into it. I can tell when I gave it my all, and in those games I truly feel great about the victory. Hell, there are times when I felt great about losing as well.

@Warrak

I most of the time would be looking at how I did anyways, not how others did. Why would I care if someone said “you didn’t kill enough lesser enemies” if I 50 more disabler kills than them.

Would you be satisfied with a scoreboard that only displays your stats? That way, you get personal performance feedback without the risk of it fueling toxicity or unnecessary competition.

@MvMArcher

Personally I would prefer a comprehensive stats page accessible somewhere in the mourningstar with a detailed breakdown of everything you did in a given match.

I could get behind a personal scoreboard in the Mourningstar—something that focuses solely on your own stats. That way, players get the feedback they want without it turning into a competition.

@Murderer

You have yet to convince me that it’s not. What other argument against it is there that doesn’t boil down to “it would make player behavior bad”?

What other argument is there besides “It’ll help me min-max better”? And even then, if you’re already relying on a scoreboard for optimization, you’re probably hitting diminishing returns anyway.

@morfin

funny how all that is already incentivized by “toxic” penance progress and needs no scoreboard to occur naturally huh?

Exactly—it would only make the issue worse.

[weeping.moon]

@Cerebrophage

genuinely incentivize Fatshark to implement such a change

Nothing will incentivize FS to do somethings tbh. Have you seen the newest premium shop rotation? Looks like a mockery on 40k. Fishnet, croptops, a hooker set, lmao.

[CopperBack1]

You guys are exhausting, penances are cause of toxic behavior now too since lack of scoreboards?

People lack personal responsibility? …people are the source of toxic behavior it will never leave gaming as we carry it and since it will always be an excuse our features will ever diminish under this battle cry.

Only way to get equality? Lower the tall trees to the shortest. Same concept in attempt to remove / prevent toxicity.

[Riku]

@CopperBack1

You guys are exhausting, penances are cause of toxic behavior now too since lack of scoreboards?

isnt that why theyre solo?

[CopperBack1]

Have to specific the “they’re” assume referring to private match penances or perhaps achieving for self as a solo achievement/penance.

I also didn’t specify, was referring to letting people go down so you can pick them back up for penance reward as the cause of that specific behavior.

[MvMArcher]

@morfin

funny how all that is already incentivized by “toxic” penance progress and needs no scoreboard to occur naturally huh?

Well as you can properly guess, I’m not a big fan of those types of achievements either.
And there was enough pushback on some of those achievements to now require private matches to complete because they were disruptive to normal gameplay.

The one upside is that those achievements are a one-and-done thing per player, whereas a live scoreboard is a continuous stat to chase.

[Molonious]

@weeping.moon

Looks like a mockery on 40k. Fishnet, croptops, a hooker set, lmao.

I mean…in fairness, Guard canon covers…a lot.

Death Korps right next to bondage enthusiasts, straight outta 3rd ed.

Tank tops, bare chests, and earrings and jewelry are certainly Catachan canon. Fishnets don’t appear that out of place.

[weeping.moon]

@Molonious

straight outta 3rd ed.

In all fairness there were aeldari-human hybrid space marines librarians in first editions, White Dwarf 1st one probably. Sure there was some glam metal stuff.

@Molonious

Tank tops, bare chests, and earrings and jewelry are certainly Catachan canon. Fishnets don’t appear that out of place.

@weeping.moon

Ork hunters are just like Catachans - steroid jungle fighters with 80-90’s commando aestetics.

Instead of leather skinny pants it should be baggy army pants. Ork fangs and skulls/heads everywhere, nades, ammo belts, all that stuff. Aslo leaning towards tribalistic hunters aestetic, like metal and bone piercing.